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  1. Looks good, but that animation clip is 90% static image. Try out a live acting clip of some sort, anything with a clean picture and SOME movement at least.
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  2. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by trhouse
    Here is a four second LP mode video clip. File size about 1.2 MB including sound.

    lp4sec.vob
    You can't even compare that to a VCD...whatsoever (as per Lordsmurfs comments).
    For LP mode on a Panasonic, that looks very good.
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by richdvd
    Originally Posted by trhouse
    Here is a four second LP mode video clip. File size about 1.2 MB including sound.

    lp4sec.vob
    You can't even compare that to a VCD...whatsoever (as per Lordsmurfs comments).
    For LP mode on a Panasonic, that looks very good.
    That "test" is unusable because like steve mentioned, it's almost completely solid blue, almost completely still, and is animation. It's also far too short. I admire the effort, but it won't work. A thorough test will not fit in the 2MB space on this forum. And make them from traditional signals (VHS, antenna, cable, satellite), not a cherry-picked test clip from a commercial DVD release. People don't use DVD recorders to re-copy DVDs they bought, at least not in this manner.

    All this takes time and resources.
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  4. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    I can see a few blocks in parts.
    But yeah...a clip with more action would be better.
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  5. I did get your comment about animation not being the best test, but some of these other sources like antenna make it impossible to show the original. The THX test pattern video clip does provide a reference which can be uploaded and used for comparison.

    Ok, more tests coming.
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  6. Originally Posted by trhouse
    I did get your comment about animation not being the best test, but some of these other sources like antenna make it impossible to show the original. The THX test pattern video clip does provide a reference which can be uploaded and used for comparison.

    Ok, more tests coming.
    I'd say just pick a common DVD trailer, something like that. Maybe if we can find something that we can all download online so that it will be available to all of us and not dependent on owning any particular DVD(s). Then it can be burned to a +/-RW for testing.
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  7. I can upload an original clip for you to use. I created a video clip from out takes for an action movie which has parts of the actual movie interspersed in it; then realized that out take part looks poor compared to the real movie so I tossed it. Not sure if trailers are really shot with the quality of the real movie. I prefer a clean source so it is clear what the copy is contributing.
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  8. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    I disagree with this. You don't want to eliminate "commercial DVD", and
    for this reason..

    Testing with a commercial DVD shows a given unit's capabilites (quality'wise)
    in a more standard kind of way. It helps to eliminate taint and confusion.

    What I mean, is..

    The First Phase tests ...

    If a user desides to demonstrate a given unit's quality level, it would
    be hard to follow because the source is not always at the same level of
    quality from user to user. And, if a user w/ the same unit tries the
    same test, the chances of that user arriving at the same result will most
    likely be nil. But, when I commercial DVD disk (as a starting reference)
    is a good thing, and *should* be patted on the back for, because any
    user can use the same commercial DVD disk with their unit and (hopefuly)
    come to the same conclusion (or not) after there own test.

    The Second Phase tests ...

    It would also be good to test, using live (or actual) sources.
    Sources that a users use in every-day projects. That can be Cable; Satelite;
    VHS; or Antenna (as in my case) for instance.

    If we start proclaiming that we should eliminate the "commercial DVD" scenario,
    than things will get ugly very quickly, because users will say, the source is
    not consistant (in so many words) as not everyone has the same level of quality
    in their source projects, and it woudn't be fair.
    .
    So, a commercial DVD *should* be used (in addition to a 'tipicle' source project)
    for demonstrating quality capabilities, etc.

    So, you want to build something that everyone can see and judge for themselves.
    Using, (shall I say) a dirty source is bad. My antenna source is noisy. And,
    in my OP, would probably fail in any test scenario (ie, dvd recorder) And,
    after seeing what it can produce (w/ a good unit) I stay away from posting
    that, because this will confuse and mislead others here. Why use a dirty
    source ??
    .
    Instead, if you still want to use a dirty source, than at least demo both.
    This way, a user can see that the "variable" (ie, my antenna) is the cause
    of the poor workmenship of a given unit.

    Its true that no one (in normal case scenarios) use their dvd recorder to
    record commercial dvd's. But, there are cases when its necessary (valid)
    and so, having a test "commercial dvd" is perfectly valid.., specially
    for this scenario.

    * I say, start w/ a commerical DVD as the first reference focal point.

    * And, leave the "actual" source to the user to work out the PROS/CONS with.
    .. since we all don't have the same source level.. (ie, noise; antenna; cable; etc)
    .. the chances of my Antenna vs. LS's Antenna's "noise level" will result
    .. in TWO DIFFERENT outcomes.

    -vhelp 3277
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  9. I agree vhelp. At least starting with a couple of DVD clips/trailers would eliminate most variables that would be introduced from a poor cable signal, etc. After testing relatively clean DVD source(s), then move onto less pristine sources such as Cable and Satellite.

    I would post a couple of short (10 seconds or so) VOB clips from DVD(s) or trailers on a free hosting site for testing, but I don't want people bitching and moaning about the legality of posting a 5-10 second clip from a DVD or trailer. I wouldn't think that posting a trailer would be such an issue considering that trailers are everywhere on the web, but I don't know if there is a legal issue with posting a 5-10 second clip from a DVD... If anyone knows if this is legal or not, comment. If it's legal I'd post a few short clips to test.
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  10. This is how this test was done. DVDShrink was used to grab a scene uncompressed from "The Matrix". This was burned to a dvd using DVD Decrypter. The dvd was recorded in LP mode on the ES10, then the VOB files were pulled from both into the computer for processing with Vobrater, mpeg2schmitt, and ifoedit.

    Only about 1.2 seconds of the original (48 frames) could be uploaded as the file size had already reached 1.8 MB. Four seconds (120 frames) of the copy occupied 1.12 MB so it is possible to upload more of it.

    The original,

    matrixorig1sec.vob

    The LP mode copy,

    matrixlp4sec.vob

    P.S. Steve2713, I am now getting much mileage from those $.05 fake TY disks in these tests.
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  11. Let me know if this is legal. I will remove them if not.
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  12. That's about the most difficult test you could possibly provide, considering all of the motion. Considering such a difficult scene and 4 hours at full resolution, I expected it'd be worse than that. I don't know that my Pioneer 420 would have done any better or even as well with that scene, even at half the resolution - 352x480. I'm not saying it looked great, but as I said that was a VERY difficult scene for any encoder.

    Any chance of trying a scene with TYPICAL, far less severe amounts of motion? Maybe try at 3 and 4 hour modes?
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  13. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    The reason to use typical source, not studio grade perfection, is that it is SLIGHT errors, some of them even "invisible" to human eyes, that cause an encoder to choke. Better encoders will know how to handle these issue. Poor encoders spew blocks and noise.

    So the most a studio source can provide is an "in theory" test.
    It is preferred to do "in practice" tests.

    For example, you can cherry pick PRINCO media to show it's 100% best ever. But that's sort of getting away from the point of consumer tests. In theory, PRINCO is probably great media. But not in practice. Sure, those tests shows "something" but the usefulness for 99.9% of the audience of videohelp will not have any real value from it.
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  14. The ES10 does not have a three hour mode unless it is set up for "flexible record" mode and three hours entered as the record time. It has XP ( 1 hr ), SP ( 2 hr ), LP ( 4 hr ) and EP ( 6 or 8 hr ) modes. EP is programmable as either 6 or 8 hours.

    Ok, more tests coming.
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  15. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    The reason to use typical source, not studio grade perfection, is that it is SLIGHT errors, some of them even "invisible" to human eyes, that cause an encoder to choke. Better encoders will know how to handle these issue. Poor encoders spew blocks and noise.

    So the most a studio source can provide is an "in theory" test.
    It is preferred to do "in practice" tests.
    Yeah, I'm aware of your reasons for saying not to use a perfect source. Certainly it would be good to see tests from both a clean source and a source filled with noise. VHS capturing is a whole category on it's own, but I think that testing relatively clean sources would be alot more useful tests because most TV content is very clean anymore, and if you have a bad cable or satellite signal creating alot of noise then fix it or live with bad recordings. Shit in shit out as has been said many times with video.
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  16. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    I took the liberty of incorporating the vob into a .PNG file
    and split-screening them. I resized the DMR processed vob
    by croping 60/60 and resizing back to 720 x 480 resolution.
    The DMR stretched (very slightely) your vob (during encoding)
    so expect a tiny distortion.
    You can copy this to your host (as I probably won't keep it)



    -vhelp 3278
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  17. BTW, don't you have a DVD-RW to test with instead of using up DVD-Rs? Even if they are cheapo fake TY discs, it's still a waste.
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  18. Is the split in the vertical beam just behind Neo's back?
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  19. I tried dvd-ram which created .vro files. I am not certain but I thought -rw does that too. Vobrater would not accept the .vro's so I used the $.05 disks to create .vob's. I only have +rw's at the moment.

    P.S. I tried changing the extension .vro to .vob to try and fool it but my recollection is something did not work right.
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  20. Originally Posted by trhouse
    Is the split in the vertical beam just behind Neo's back?
    It's basically splitting him right down the middle. If you look at the bottom you can see a very slight change in the color of the floor.
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  21. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Is the split in the vertical beam just behind Neo's back?
    Sorry, that's my fault. I knew that sooner or later, someone
    would question the center. I ment to do something about it, but
    I was lazy. I can add an "I" beam in there somewher's

    -vhelp 3281
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  22. Yesterday I sent an e-mail to Panasonic - Canada regarding the questions raised on this forum about the 12-bit A/D (D/A) converter.

    This is my e-mail:


    I would like to receive information about the A/D and D/A converters used in the new Panasonic DIGA DVD recorders.

    The official Panasonic information posted on this site:
    http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en050224-6/en050224-6.html

    claims:

    “…With the new DIGA Engine II LSI, the five models render images that are twice as sharp as previous models, delivering the same 500 lines of horizontal resolution in the LP mode as that in the standard recording (SP) mode. To achieve such high-quality picture recording, Panasonic incorporated into the new LSI a virtual multi-encoding system that virtually encodes multiple aspects of a scene while selecting the encoding system that assures optimum picture quality. A new 12-bit analog-to-digital converter also quadruples gradation to 4,096 steps, resulting in smooth and faithful reproduction of the details to retain subtle nuances of the original images.”

    That means the new A/D converter is 12-bit.


    The Panasonic-US official site:

    http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalog...VD%20Recorders

    does not even refer to the A/D converter, but states:

    “ …Video D/A Converter 54MHz/12-bit. “
    That means that the new D/A converter is 12-bit.

    Will you, please, clarify what kind of A/D and D/A converters the new DVD recorders have? Are they both 12-bit or only one of them? And which one?

    Thank you and I look forward to your response.



    Now, this is the response of Panasonic – Canada:


    “ Thank you for your e-mail. Please be advised that our 2005 DVD Recorders
    have a 12-bit Analog-to-Digital Converter. The only 2005 posted on our web
    site at this time is the DMR-ES10. We will be introducing an ES30 and an EH50
    within the next few weeks.

    Sincerely,
    Customer Care Centre
    Panasonic Canada Inc. “


    So, my fellows, except for Panasonic-US and a few members from our forum, everybody else states that the new DVD recorders have a 12-bit A/D converter. It is safe to assume that Panasonic-US is ill informed about the new technology and therefore have incorrect information regarding the A/D and D/A converters. As confirmation that something has gone wrong in the communications between Panasonic-Japan and Panasonic-US is the fact that people from Panasonic-US are getting their first information about the new technology from nobody but lordsmurf himself!


    Now, about the LP recording from the Panasonic DMR-ES10.

    Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion, but I can second the opinion of every one of our members who bought this recorder:

    - I have yet to see a better 4 hour recording from any other DVD recorder at any price!
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  23. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    @steve
    Even "clean" cable and satellite has a good bit of noise in it. Those often trip an encoder, especially poor ones.

    @zoran
    The JVC Japan people claim the JVC recorders have TBCs. They do not. Canadian techs are often second-hand information as compared to the USA, or so experience has shown me in the past, in regards to new products. All that Canadian tech has done is added another voice to the mayhem, not a confirmation of anything at all. Until there is a unified front, there will be no confirmation. All the DIGA tech has done is made LP at twice the res, but remains the same visual quality. That's a trade-off, not an improvement.
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  24. Sorry for the delay. I had to buy some dvd-rw's for more tests. I was mistaken earlier about dvd-rw files being VRO. Finalizing a dvd-rw does create VOB's which is very convenient.

    There is a problem I have been trying to work out. When a capture is done with Shrink and burned with Decrypter, the VOB file on the burned disk does not show an audio track when Vobrater opens and analyzes it. Consequently, when it demuxes, there is a m2v but no ac3 stream.

    When the disk is played back on PowerDVD, it shows an ac3 track and has sound and when the disk is played and recorded to the ES10, the ES10 recording when opened and analyzed with Vobrater does show an ac3 track. Strange.

    Vobrater analysis of rip from "The Matrix".



    Vobrater analysis of copy made with ES10.



    Meanwhile three captures with less action in LP mode, FR(flexible record) 3 hour, and FR 4 hour have been prepared.
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  25. Here is a VirtualDubMod frame grab comparison of the high action scene from the Matrix posted by trhouse...

    The original commercial DVD frame was resized and saved to JPG with Irfanview from 720x480 to 853x480 for proper viewing aspect ratio. The ES10 LP recording (which is 704x480) is 4:3 letterbox, so it was resized to 853x640 for comparison purposes.

    First, the original DVD frame:



    Here is the ES10 LP recording:



    There are numerous MPEG2 compression artifacts in the LP recording of this high motion scene, including a large number of macroblocks. The original DVD frame has relatively few MPEG2 compression artifacts, despite the very fast motion in the scene.

    Naturally, one would expect the original DVD to look much better than a downsized 4:3 letterbox copy recorded in 4 hour mode with the ES10. I just wanted to point out that maintaining a resolution of 704x480 (or 720x480 for that matter) when basically performing a low bitrate one-pass/hybrid VBR MPEG2 encode at a four hour time length is going to result in lots of compression artifacts, especially during high motion scenes. The ES10 has no magic in it to overcome this reality.
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  26. Ok, here are four new captures with less action as requested by steve2713.

    First the original,

    matrixmedorig.vob

    Next is flexible recording set for three hours,

    matrixmedfr3.vob

    Flexible recording set for four hours,

    matrixmedfr4.vob

    and LP mode

    matrixmedlp.vob

    gshelley61 hope you are feeling better. I had flu in Jan. that required almost four weeks of recovery.
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  27. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Hi guys

    I'm a little worried about the proper steps in your demostration..
    (ie, from commerical DVD to dvd_recorder)

    I'll go on assuming that the reason for all the complicated steps is
    due to the MV side-steping.

    However, there is a better way to go about it. I'll post the proper
    (what I beleive is the best way) to process a given demonstration.

    INSTRUCTIONS FOR DEMO'ING CUT SCENES FROM COMMERICAL DVD DISKS

    Code:
    * SOURCE: dvd - "the matrix"
    
    * rip chapters (makes things easier, than ripping whole movies)
    
    * take that ripped VOB and re-author it to a DVD RW disk.
      I use ifoEDIT for this so that nothing gets contaminated
      (ie, aspect ratio; for instance)
      (also, this will eliminate any MV - macrovision in the new vob)
    
    * play the RW disk in your test dvd player to your dvd_recorder
      (video mode)
    
    * Now, take out the dvd_recorded RW and pop it into your PC's RW-ROM
      writer and open it inside vidubMOD, and go to the scene (frame) to
      demo and copy it to the clipboard (or your graphics app) and Save As
      a .PNG file (for maximum lossless reproduction, we use .PNG format)
    
    * And finally, post your pic
    -vhelp 3289
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  28. I do not recall if the THX test patterns from the ICE AGE disk had MV. The reason for ripping with DVD Shrink for the uploaded video clips was both MV and it is a lot more convenient when making numerous repeat tests ( XP, SP, LP, FR3, FR4, fast action, medium action, animation, etc. ) to have that one video clip handy rather than repeatedly try to locate it in the movie.

    I use the re-author function in DVD Shrink when ripping to select only the scenes needed for the test and use ifoedit to merge the mv2 and ac3 streams from mpeg2shnitt and create the posted VOB's.

    DVD Decrypter is used to burn the dvd-rw. Decrypter also has a demux function which means Vobrator is not really necessary.

    The fact that so many pieces of software are necessary is probably why this is not being done very much.

    Virtualdubmod for stills
    DVD Shrink to rip and re-author
    DVD Decrypter to burn dvd-r/+r or dvd-rw/+rw ( will not do dvd-ram )
    Vobrator to demux ( necessary because mpeg2schnitt requires m2v, ac3 streams ). Decrypter can also demux.
    Mpeg2schnitt for cutting
    Ifoedit for recombining the m2v, ac3 files to create the VOB's

    This software is all freeware. Those who own a Womble product ( $70-$120 ) will probably find it less cumbersome.
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  29. I'm not expecting ANY recorder to create good looking LP mode video on a 4gb single sided disk. I do have a question though:

    Since the 12bit analog to digital converter is supposed to provide 4 times the number of possible color gradations offered by 10-bit systems, shouldn't we notice that when comparing the XP mode to other systems at HQ/FINE? If I played an ES10s recorded XP recording next to a Pioneer FINE recording would I notice that the ES10 is much better?

    Also, (I saw someone asking this question in another forum too) the ES10 claims to have a Real-Time Variable Bit Rate Control. Does this mean that recording modes can be changed while recording?

    D'oh!
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  30. "Also, (I saw someone asking this question in another forum too) the ES10 claims to have a Real-Time Variable Bit Rate Control. Does this mean that recording modes can be changed while recording?"

    Just for fun, I tried it. Began recording a dvd-rw disk in XP mode and hit the "record mode" button to see if it would accept it or change. It did not. The circle symbol with a diagonal line through it came on the screen indicating the function was not available during record.

    Your second question is hard to answer. Some on this forum believe the ES10 has a 12 bit input A/D converter, others seem doubtful, and I just do not know for certain since Panasonic USA says that is proprietary information.

    All they say on the Panasonic USA web site is,

    "Video D/A Converter 54MHz/12-bit"

    and on the Pioneer web site,

    "Video DAC 10-bit/54MHz"

    and on the Sony web site,

    "12 Bit Video Digital to Analog Converter with 108Mhz Processing"

    from the JVC web site,

    "High-bit/high-sampling (10-bit/54MHz video D/A converter)"

    Toshiba,

    "10-bit/54 MHz Video Digtial/Analog Converter"

    The only company I have found that actually says what both input A/D and output D/A resolutions are is Philips,

    "D/A converter : 10 bit, 54 MHz
    A/D converter : 10 bit, 54 MHz"

    It is believed that Panasonic makes their own front end chip but many of their competitors do not. A search of independent manufacturers of such parts including LSI and Analog Devices gave an interesting look into the future of recorders. First, Analog Devices does make a 12 bit input A/D converter part but not quite what one would expect. Only 10 bits are used for the A/D conversion at 54 MHz. The other two bits are for calibration of offset and gain. Here is a link to the data sheet,

    http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,765_809_ADV7202%2C00.html

    LSI has quite a few offerings but some of the latest make it hard to determine what the input resolution is. Here is a drawing from a second generation chip indicating 8 bit resolution. They are now on third generation.

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