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  1. Member ann coates's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vhelp
    I would suggest a better (in addition to conforming to a standard) that if a user truely wants to demonstrate the quality level of a given device, that they include an source file of a few frames. 5 frames would probably do it at least. Post the VOB file. Cut out a section of the VOB file (from the DVD Recorder's recorded disk) and UPLOAD it so we can D/L it, and view it.
    Anyone willing? I agree that LP mode on the Panasonics isn't very good, but I'm curious to see if it's been improved in the new models with the 12 bit converters.
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  2. Ann,

    Only a few British web sites indicate the ES10 has a 12 bit A/D converter. The documentation does not mention anything about the A/D in the manual specifications section. Might have to call technical support for an answer.

    vhelp,

    Usually standards like for USB2.0, are setup by committee so that everyone has a chance to determine what is needed. I didn't set out to to do that. I was only trying to see if I could do a comparison to existing tests done by gshelley61. I wish there were a standardized test here. If there were I would not be struggling with inappropriate software like CinePlayer. Have you thought yourself about forming such a committee to create a standardized test? I for one would welcome it.

    Someone with the handle trock, said on another thread the test cannot be the same unless the THX patterns were taken from the same movie. In this case, I used the same ICE AGE video used by gshelley61.

    The only motion in the test patterns is from the image with the mammoth and they were all recorded to dvd-ram so they are .vro files. Can you convert .vro to .vob if I can upload? Also, I have never uploaded a file but it as the extension zip. What will that do?

    P.S. the jpg quality setting was 85% same as on the earlier tests in which virtualdubmod was used.
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  3. Only a few British web sites indicate the ES10 has a 12 bit A/D converter.
    We have been posting some official links from Panasonic (Japan) few months ago and here is another one:

    http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en050224-6/en050224-6.html
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  4. Before I make another blunder like using CinePlayer to capture stills, what software is recommended to capture the five frames for a vro or vob file?

    zorankarapancev,

    My concern is that I have seen a site reporting on the Jan. CES show. They said the ES10 has a 12 bit A//D but then they said the ES30 has a VCR and 80 GB hard drive and the EH50 has a 100 GB hard drive but the EH50 costs $100 more than the ES30. Circuit City just had three ES30's come in. Maybe I will have to time to have a peek today, but I think they do not have 80 GB hard drives. If they do, they quoted $299.
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  5. ES30 has no hard drive. Just a built in vcr.
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  6. It was suggested that some uploaded video clips might help others evaluate recorders such as this one. Vhelp requested five frames in a VOB file. The other criteria was to use freeware so that others can duplicate the tests if they wish without incurring additional expense. There are good mpeg cut programs out there but some approach the cost of a recorder.

    Virtualdubmod worked very well for still images. It works well in grabbing five frames but saves the captures in avi format. Unfortunately, five frames came in at just under five MB. Too large to upload.

    Three other freeware programs available in the tools sections were used to create these VOB files. They are vobrater, mpeg2schnitt, and ifoedit. Vobrator is used to demux each VOB file to m2v ( video ) and ac3 ( audio ) files. This step was necessary because the cut program, mpeg2schnitt. accepts these files. Mpeg2schnitt seems to start a cut only at an I frame. This makes it hard to compare the THX, XP, SP, and LP captures with only five frames. Each capture starts at a slightly different place so the I frames do not line up in time. To make certain each capture contains at least most of the same frames as the others, 60 frames were used per capture.

    Ifoedit was used to take the m2v and ac3 files created by mpeg2schnitt and create the VIDEO_TS, VTS_01_0.IFO, VTS_01_1.VOB folders. In the case of each capture, the VTS_01_1.VOB file was renamed thx.vob, xp.vob, etc. for upload.

    thx.vob
    xp.vob
    sp.vob
    lp.vob

    There were some items which do not seem to make sense.

    1. The uncut captured VOB files were XP ( 31.6 MB), SP ( 16.4 MB ), and LP ( 9.4 MB ) in size, but the cut VOB files were XP ( 1.93 MB ), SP ( 1.73 MB ), and LP ( 0.48 MB ). Seems strange that the file size for XP and SP should be so close together after cutting.

    2. Vobrator indicated that the uncut XP capture consisted of two VES files. It then created two m2v files of about 18 MB and 11 MB. Not sure why this happened. When viewed, the two m2v files combined contain the same video material as each single file in the SP and LP captures.

    P.S. Panasonic USA now says the following in the specifications page for the ES10 on their web page.

    "Video D/A Converter 54MHz/12-bit"

    It is hard to know if they mean the output D/A is 12 bit or the input A/D is 12 bit since 12 bit A/D converters are made using a 12 bit D/A converters.
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  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    It is largely believed that the initial 12-bit A/D was a mistake. It was really supposed to say 12-bit D/A (output chips), but is still using 10-bit A/D (recorder chips) with some new fancy "DIGA" stuff that hasn't made a bit of difference. It made 4-hour mode blocky at 720 instead of 352, if that's any kind of importance.

    I'd love for that to be cleared up. Either way, it hasn't made any real improvement over earlier Panasonic equipment. It looks about the same as an E50s-E80s machine.
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  8. I just called Panasonic USA technical support and they confirmed that it is the output D/A that is 12 bit. I asked them if they know what the input A/D resolution is but they did not know and said that they would refer my query to their engineering department.

    Support did say that the 12 bit output resolution is only of some value in viewing commercial dvd's.

    Would you have any objection if I add a link to your review here?

    P.S. Once I tried to determine the resolution of the A/D in the BT8xx series of capture devices. Conexant never managed to say what it is in a 100 plus page spec. sheet for the part. It may remain an unknown if Panasonic is dealing with a part maker like Conexant.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Link it.

    Panasonic develops stuff in house. I read many times that their hardware were based off their software. The Panasonic MPEG Encoder was pretty dismal in quality (it also suffered macroblock problems). Discontinued and vaporized. Sadly, most good information on these has been lost to time. Sites that have died in past years.
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  10. Looks like the answer is we will never know. Below is the response I received from Panasonic Customer Support. I do credit them that they always answer my questions and seem to make a genuine effort to find out what they do not know.


    "I just got a response back from engineering. Unfortunately, it's not the answer you were looking for. Basically, we've been told that the information is "Nothing 'public' - the IC is custom made and we are not able to share the specifications." I wish I could have provided you more information, but it looks like that kind of data is confidential, even to myself. If there is anything else I can do for you, please don't hesitate to call at 1-800-211-7262.

    Sincerely,

    P.........

    Technical Service Representative III

    Panasonic Customer Call Center
    Panasonic ideas for life"

    For additional information regarding the DMR-ES10, this product has been reviewed by Lordsmurf at the link below,

    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528
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  11. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    For additional information regarding the DMR-ES10, this product has been reviewed by Lordsmurf at the link below,

    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528
    I'm sure the engineers at Panasonic will get a few laughs outta this one.
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  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by richdvd
    For additional information regarding the DMR-ES10, this product has been reviewed by Lordsmurf at the link below,

    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528
    I'm sure the engineers at Panasonic will get a few laughs outta this one.
    You mean the part where their encoder is inferior...

    ... or the part about where they conceal as much info as they can on their equipment.

    Yes, amusing indeed. If they made more info available on their chips, they'd probably get totally lambasted for their BS marketing and mediocre quality chips, and rightfully so.

    There are tech reasons why their stuff is inferior. It's not magic. The fact that they insist on concealing that info speaks volumes.
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  13. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Originally Posted by richdvd
    For additional information regarding the DMR-ES10, this product has been reviewed by Lordsmurf at the link below,

    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528
    I'm sure the engineers at Panasonic will get a few laughs outta this one.
    You mean the part where their encoder is inferior...

    ... or the part about where they conceal as much info as they can on their equipment.

    Yes, amusing indeed. If they made more info available on their chips, they'd probably get totally lambasted for their BS marketing and mediocre quality chips, and rightfully so.

    There are tech reasons why their stuff is inferior. It's not magic. The fact that they insist on concealing that info speaks volumes.
    This part....

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Beyond about 2 hours, especially with an imperfect signal, expect your video to be turn into macroblock-ridden kibble. Barely better than a VCD. Anybody that wants to casually transfer VHS to DVD, or looking to use it for longer than SP mode, should probably run for the hills. Any machine but this one.
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  14. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    4-hour mode from a VHS tape is all full of blocks. Very often, even FR for times between 2˝-4 hours, you get them. I'll add pictures to that post when I get time. It's not much better than a VCD. Between an inferior hardware encoder, imperfect signals, and a higher-compressed bitrate, macroblocks is what happens. It how things work, on the Panasonics, including the ES10.

    Again, anybody that wants to casually transfer VHS to DVD, or looking to use it for longer than SP mode, should probably run for the hills. Any machine but this one.
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  15. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    You said beyond 2 hours....not 4 hours.
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  16. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by richdvd
    You said beyond 2 hours....not 4 hours.
    It starts to degrade pretty bad past 2 hours. The farther away, the worse it gets. The 3 hour range is pretty blocky. By the time you hit 4 hours, it's all blocks. Keep going, and it just gets worse. Eventually you get to deinterlace+blocks at around 5 or so hours. I forget the exact cut-off range.

    With a clean signal, you may be able to get a good 2˝ hours, maybe 3 if you're not too picky. With a VHS signal, even 2˝ is kind of pushing it. Some older Panasonics were pushing it on SP mode, but that is not the case these days.

    Mosquito noise starts to creep in first, and then blocks start to take over slowly as the time goes further.
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  17. The purpose of the VOB files is so that everyone can judge for themselves the quality of captures in XP, SP, and LP modes. The original THX video clip is included as thx.vob so that the captures can be compared to the original. The captures are of animation which is not the best material for testing encoders as noted by Lordsmurf on another thread.

    One interesting item discovered while creating these files. The GOP ( group of pictures ) of the original THX file is not 15 frames but seems to vary from 11 to 12. The captures are all 15.
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  18. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    With a clean signal, you may be able to get a good 2˝ hours, maybe 3 if you're not too picky.
    I agree with that.
    I use my E50 for material always under 2hr 45min.
    However..I have yet to see GOOD results at the 3 hour mark on any machine.
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  19. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by richdvd
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    With a clean signal, you may be able to get a good 2˝ hours, maybe 3 if you're not too picky.
    I agree with that.
    I use my E50 for material always under 2hr 45min.
    However..I have yet to see GOOD results at the 3 hour mark on any machine.
    The best setting on the JVC unit is easily FR180. Very high VBR bitrate for that resolution, as well as a good clean encoder (LSI chips). Very nice.

    LiteOn/ILO (LSI chips) looks quite decent too, if you hack it.

    Pioneer (Renesas?) is not too shabby. Clean job.

    Sanyo (ESS) is alright too. Not as good as the other above, but not full of blocks. It does suffer sligh mosquito effect, but not as bad as Panasonic, Philips and a handful of others.

    These all look pretty much as good as the source, some of them (LSI ones) even improve the source.
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  20. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    Where can I find some screenshot comparisons of units using the FR180/LP4 hour recording mode?
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  21. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by richdvd
    Where can I find some screenshot comparisons of units using the FR180/LP4 hour recording mode?
    The best is advice is to always test yourself. I'd love to take some for you right now, but I'm in the middle of a handful of projects. In a couple weeks, I may have time to expand on some of these tests. I want to decide on some test materials first that can easily be compared with stills, maybe quick clips. Not all sources are suited for that.

    I'm actually not aware of any accurate tests anywhere online. Quite sad. But I can understand why.
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  22. Quick clips? Do you mean Quicktime clips? It's easy to understand why you do not do a test right now. It is much more time consuming than one would think.

    Just a note about the above VOB files. For those who want to view them on the computer, just download them and change the extension from .vob to .mpg and they will play in Windows Media Player.
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  23. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Quick, as in only lasting 30 seconds (maybe even less, like 10 seconds). Must have footage that is adequate for that timeframe. Nothing too busy, nothing too static. Remember, net files need to stay small. Especially if we start with VOBs and MPEG files, etc. Neither I nor Baldrick have the bandwidth for a massive project full of large files.
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  24. There is a file size limit of 2 MB. I used 60 frames ( four GOP's ) in my xp.vob file which runs for about 2 seconds. The file size was about 1.9 MB including sound. 60 frames for the lp.vob file was less than 500 kB for the same two seconds. All captures were the same two seconds so they can be compared.
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  25. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Tests are best burned to DVD-RW/+RW and played on tv. Not super fond of PC-only tests.
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  26. Yes, that is why the VOB files were uploaded. The after thought about changing the extension was just a way of allowing those not interested in creating a disk to view it on their computer.
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  27. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    The clips need to be a bit longer.
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  28. Two seconds at XP rates are all that can be uploaded due to the 2 MB file size limit on this site. A larger file was attempted. The link was established but clicking on it resulted in a "file not found" message.

    LP mode file sizes would probably allow an eight second file if that helps.
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  29. Member richdvd's Avatar
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    a 4-5 second LP clip would work.
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  30. Here is a four second LP mode video clip. File size about 1.2 MB including sound.

    lp4sec.vob
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