Would you buy a hybrid car?

[BJ_M]

diesel hybrids (already in big use by such as the NYCT) will be seen more and more ..



biodiesel production will be also a major component of the fuels of the future..

[BJ_M]

btw --i get a lot of info here http://www.greencarcongress.com/

[enstg8er]

btw --i get a lot of info here http://www.greencarcongress.com/

didn't have time to read much at the site. one thing i think i can agree with briefly- there is enormous research going into the problem and the lack of tangible results is not due to lack of effort.
as with any topic, experts disagree. see here:
http://www.culturechange.org/hydrogen.htm

don't sell steam short. it is the cheapest energy source so far and it may come to hybrids soon.

[BJ_M]

http://www.culturechange.org is the same group that wants NO new roads, no repaving of some existing roads, an end to ALL inner city driving, and the end to all oil exploration ...

so i guess you could say they are a little left of leftwing .. and perhaps not the best authority always .. but make for interisting reading .. he has some good points ..

[enstg8er]

great point. i try not to link to far left sites, people might think i'm a kook. i did this time since it contained information from his book. the author does have credibility as someone dedicated to pushing the hydrogen alternative.

Romm, who helped run the federal government's program on hydrogen and fuel cells during the Clinton administration provides a provocative primer on the politics, business, and technology of hydrogen and climate protection.

not true - gas engines are MUCH more efficient than any electric coal and nuke plants ... gas car engine is 98-99% percent efficient at converting gas to torque at the wheels .. way better than even steam .

overly optimistic. about 40% of the energy produced by internal combustion engines is lost as heat. (energy=heat). also other factors are involved- friction, additional uses like airconditioners and the like consume some of the energy robbed from the drive line.

it is refreshing to see an open dialogue dedicated to finding progress. it is tiring listening to morons claim the car companies are trying to bury the tech advancements so the oil companies can get rich.

from forbes, on the grid-

A plug-in hybrid would save most drivers a lot on fuel, because big power plants generate electricity a lot more cheaply than little ones. Running on $2-a-gallon gasoline, the Silverado delivers electric power at a marginal cost of 60 cents per kilowatt-hour. Compare that with electric power from the grid. The average residential price is 8.5 cents per kwh. Off-peak prices, at utilities that offer them, are far lower. You could charge your truck at night. Opportunistic recharging would play a role. Once the plug-in hybrid catches on, recharging terminals will proliferate, acting and even looking a whole lot like parking meters. Mall owners will validate your recharge card when you shop in their stores. To the electricity cost must be added the wear and tear on the rechargeable battery. All told, says Edward Kjaer, director of electric transportation for Southern California Edison, refueling at the plug should cost no more than a third as much as refueling at the pump, and in many cases a lot less than that. Sticking coal with the same highway-construction taxes you pay at the pump would narrow the gap only a bit.

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/business/forbes/2004/0524/106.html

another reason for steam optimism- waste heat (energy) recovery. a dedicated steam circuit using water capturing the heat after the cat converter (needs heat to work) could drive a small turbine. this could be used to charge the battery. utilizing energy normally wasted. it, of course has challenges. water is corossive. the system would be large, heavy and complicated. maintenance would be costly.

in the end there are no perfect or easy answers. the laws of physics are proving to be a significant obstacle. those that ignore those laws are fools disrupting actual progress to score points with the stupis and gullible...

[BJ_M]

two different types of efficient measures we are using - so both right ...


Diesel engines can achieve thermal efficiencies in excess of 50%. The best gasoline engines are only about 30% to 33% efficient, and then only at wide throttle openings. As a result, diesel engines have better fuel economy than gasoline engines.

[BJ_M]

8.5 cents was in 2001/2002 . its now about 9.2 .. but that is not the whole cost - for example:

January 2001 price per KWH charged by Pacific Gas & Electric in San Francisco:
33.3 cents

It also really depends where you live as to how much grid lose you will have... and so many other factors ..
The big complaint in calf. was (when electric cars first came out- which had horrid batteries) the pollution in recycling the batteries as well as the production of the electric was just shifted west ...and overall not as efficient as some types of conventional combustion engines ..

[BJ_M]

interesting fact --


CHINA just announced new gas economy guidelines - tougher than in any other country and with HEAVY punishment for non compliance ...

don't know if they also toughed up on air pollution - which is pretty bad there ..(REALLY bad in some areas - i tell you, you can hardly breath or see)

[BJ_M]

as i was saying:

GM in fuel cell deal with government

Auto manufacturer says it has inked $88M pact to build fleet of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles by 2009.

March 30, 2005: 10:33 AM EST


DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. Wednesday said it signed an $88 million deal with the Department of Energy to build a fleet of 40 hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and further develop the technology.

Under the five-year program, the world's largest auto manufacturer will spend $44 million to deploy fuel cell demonstration vehicles in Washington D.C., New York, California and Michigan.

The Department of Energy will contribute the other half of the program's investment under an agreement that expires in September 2009.

In a separate commercial agreement, Shell Hydrogen LLC will support GM by setting up five hydrogen refueling stations in Washington, D.C.; New York City; between Washington D.C. and New York; and in California.

Other program partners include the Army at Fort Belvoir, Va., and Quantum Technologies in Lake Forest, Calif. Both will provide facilities for GM to store and maintain fuel cell vehicles.

GM said it is also collaborating with the Department of Defense and would release news on that relationship later in the week.

[enstg8er]

another reason to dump your gm stock. they can't find ways to lose money faster. they just lost a billion dollars trying to be the leader in the electric car market. cars mandated by california law. it seems they don't have access to high school science students.

This incident ran through my mind the other day as I watched a General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) presentation in New York City's Central Park. GM is taking this show across the country to emphasize its work on hydrogen fuel-cell engines--allegedly for cars of the future.

GM executives said the company will produce such cars by 2010, and GM wants to be the first automaker to build 1 million of them. GM let me and other members of the press drive or ride in hydrogen fuel-cell cars as well as vehicles with diesel and hybrid engines. ...Fuel-cell vehicles promise high mileage without earth-warming carbon-dioxide emissions. The only "exhaust" of a fuel-cell reaction is water.

In my years covering Detroit I have been through many a GM research presentation on engines of the future. Trust me, they never make it to market. But still, I wondered why GM was putting on its current show.

Then I figured it out.

In terms of fuel-economy/earth-warming publicity, GM is far behind the competition. Its electric car, the EV-1, which cost $1 billion to build--but found only 700 customers--was a total failure. Who would want a car with a range of less than 100 miles? .....The big problem in the U.S. is all the pickups and SUVs that get 16 miles per gallon. Hybrids, alas, improve efficiency only 10% to 12%, which might sound large but works out to only one to two miles per gallon for the bigger trucks. In order to save $100 to $150 worth of fuel a year, is it worth spending an extra $3,000 to $5,000 for a hybrid engine system?

In previous columns I wrote, "no, it wasn't worth it." But losing the public relations war is another story.

GM knows this. That's why the company reinstated plans to build a hybrid pickup truck. The project was killed but it has been revived. GM needs something in the propaganda war, especially if Ford is going to have its hybrid Escape.

http://www.forbes.com/2002/08/12/0812flint.html

until companies quit worrying about public relations and get serious with real science, billions are going to be wasted just so we can delay real progress.........

[enstg8er]

early projections of the vehicle- shown as a prototype at the detroit auto show. the vehicle sits on a 12" platform containing the hydro tanks, and major electrical and mechanical components. claimed 0-60 mph in 10 seconds. range of 300 miles. they don't give a towing capacity. 80 hp motor for the front wheels and individual 34 hp motors for the rear.

hydro tanks are 12" in diameter and 5 feet long. three of them hold 18 pounds of hydro at 10,000 psi.

isolation and compression of the hydrogen is accomplished by the use of carbon based energy.

[BJ_M]

they are using methane to produce H


- yea the EV-1 was a huge joke ... what a disaster ..



but the Ford Escapes hybrids they sell here in canada at least get about 75% better economy ..

2005 Escape Hybrid 4x4 to be rated at between 35-40 mpg on the EPA city cycle, about 75 percent better than the conventional V-6-powered Ford Escape 4x4. The new system doesn't sacrifice performance, delivering acceleration that's similar to that of the V-6.

(autoweek - money)

real world tests by a number of testers avg 38mpg in mixed driving ..

And it is only $2000 more in cost ...
It would pay for itself in one year with the mileage i do.

For a large pickup - i could see it not being much use though if hauling ... but most suv and pickup owners are just going to the store in the city ..