DV to DVD ...

[dvnoob]

What I want to do is transfer all my DV to DVD with the BEST quality possible.

1) I am using DVAPP to "transfer" from DV to HD as an AVI.... I assume that simply using DVAPP makes an exact duplicate of the original and there is no loss of quality at this point.

2) THen I use MAINCONCEPT MPEG ENCODER to convert the AVI to MPG... IF anyone uses this program alot, can you suggest any settings that I should change to make for the BEST QUALITY conversion.

3) Then I use TMPGENC DVD AUTHOR to convert the MPG to DVD... I don't think there are many options at this point so I'm not sure what kind of loss of quality you get in this stage...

I read that people are seperating the audio and video into seperate fiels beofer the get to the DVD stage, is this a better way? I also read that using something to "capture" the DV and convert it "on the fly" to MPG is NOT the best way to do it... Is that true?

Is there any suggestions or comments anyone can make to the way I am doing this? Obviously, like everyone else, these are precious video tapes and my only concern is HIGHEST QUALITY video!!

Thanks to all of you, this site is kick-a$$, there is SO much reading to do on here!!!

[proxyx99]

Your thinking is correct. Use the DVD option (template) in MC Enc. If you have time capture to DV first, if you have to leave in 1 hr then do an MPEG2 capture, it will save you time.
DVD template is 6000 avg VBR. decide on the sound format (PCM, AC3 or MPEG) depending on what impact you want to make and and how deep is your pocket. In case of AC3 audio will have to be encoded outside MC Enc.
No quality difference beween 1 pass VBR lazy pace mode or "on the fly".
If you want you may up the bitrate to about 7 k in advanced options.
I would encode to program (A+V) stream and demux later. It allows you to watch the video with sound afterwards.
There is no quality loss in the DVD authoring process.
Good luck.

[ronnylov]

You may also consider burning the avi files from step 1) directly to DVD in data format. This way you have the best quality possible backup of your DV tape. But you can not watch it in your standalone player. You can fit 20 minutes in DV format on one DVD.

You will always wonder if I did the best possible conversion possible. But if you always make sure to have a backup of the DV tape in original format (either on another tape, DVD-R or harddisk) you still have the option to make another conversion later when you have learned more how to make perfect encodings.

[daamon]

Hi dvnoob,

1) Correct assumption.

2) Don't use it, so can't comment. Sorry.

3) Authoring is where you can choose to create menus for your DVDs (or not) and then all the video and audio, along with menus etc., are bundled up into the VOBS etc. There's no loss of quality.

"Separating audio and video" - I do this so that I can convert my uncompressed WAV file to compressed AC3. There is no discernible difference in quality, but the filesize is much smaller. This means that there is more room on the disc for the video portion.

It may help if you understand this: the filesize of the video (and audio) is only a factor of the running time and the bitrate used to encode it.

For audio, clever algorithms can reduce the filesize by using a lower bitrate (coz the running time is the same) without noticably affecting the quality.

Sadly for video, this isn't nearly as true. Therefore, if a disk has more space for the video portion it means that the filesize can be bigger. If the filesize can be bigger, and the running time is obviously the same, then it means that a higher bitrate can be used. A higher bitrate generally means a higher quality.

That's why people encode their audio to compressed formats like AC3 (universal) and MP2 (PAL only), instead of leaving it as uncompressed WAV.

Now, if both uncompressed audio and the video (at an high bitrate) fit OK then there's no need to worry about it. Anything more than an hours running time of video and you start to need to be thinking about compressing the audio.

"Converting to MPEG on the fly" - In general, it's felt that this can produce lower quality video footage because the encoder has to encode the info there and then - bearing in mind it's being effectively bombarded - rather than taking it's time and encoding the next frame when it's good and ready.

A better spec PC will do a better job of encoding "on the fly" - it'll come down to personal preference. I leave my encodes running overnight, so time isn't an issue.

Hope that helps...

[dvnoob]

I like the idea of using the DVDs fro AVI backup, however, it will take 3 per DV tape

I did use the DVD template in MC, I also have TMPGENC 3.0 xpress, and they have different options for doing the same thing which complicates things for me. I don't know what the audio is after u transfer it to an AVI on your HD, it appears I can pick LPCM or audio layer-1 in TMPGENC but in MC I can pick LPCM or layer-1 OR layer-2.....

I use the 60 minute option on those DV tapes so it appears that I may not need to worry about the audio!!

Thanks for all the replies!!

[daamon]

sigh nm.....

What's up? Is that a sigh of despair or not sure of something?

[dvnoob]

I made some pics of the settings in TMPGENC to ask questions on and then I realized you couldnt upload more then 1....

[daamon]

...then I realized you couldnt upload more then 1....

Yeah you can. Load the first, click "Edit" (far right of the particular post) and load the second. Click "Edit" and repeat however many times you need to...

[Mac_User]

What I want to do is transfer all my DV to DVD with the BEST quality possible

Over a year ago I had to burn a lot of DV and some analog tapes on DVD discs to preserve the footage for "time corrosion".

After handling (converting, burning etc.) a few tapes I found out that using a computer for this job is far from ideal. It takes to much time and care.

So then I bought a cheap Lite-On 5005 DVD recorder with firewire (iLink) and analog ports. I burned all my tapes in HQ mode (1 hour/DVD) on DVD+R discs without any problems. I used DVD+ discs instead of DVD- because the +discs are cheaper and the process of closing the disc after burning is faster then with a -disc.

The Lite-On 5005 DVD recorder saved me a lot of time. I now have a stack of perfectly good backups for later use. The quality is good enough for use as a source in case the tapes are gone. Some of the V8 analog tapes (nearly 20 years old) are nearly desintegrated at this moment so it was a wise decision to make a backup on DVD.

The price of cheap brand DVD recorders (such as the Lite-On recorder) is at the present very reasonable so if you have to burn a lot of tapes I really suggest you to think about this option.
And after the copy job is done you still have a fine recorder that can replace your VHS recorder

Success, Wim.

[dvnoob]

so you bought a piece of hardware that burns dvds and hooks up directly to your PC through fire wire?

In other words you are "transfering" the DV source file to the DVD as a AVI file using the DVD as storage?

I'm still a bit lost on this so tell me some more

Thanks!

[daamon]

DVD Recorders are like VCR's except they record to DVD instead of tape.

The one referred to has a firewire port so that it can take an input direct from your DV cam firewire out.

In other words you are "transfering" the DV source file to the DVD as a AVI file using the DVD as storage?

No, it'll be encoding "on the fly" to MPEG2 and recording directly to the disc in that DVD format.

I now have a stack of perfectly good backups for later use. The quality is good enough for use as a source in case the tapes are gone.

This is a dangerous remark and can be misleading... Consider this:

1. The source is DV AVI at 25Mbps.
2. DV AVI is extremely well suited to editing (even simple stuff like cuts, transitions etc.)
3. The "perfectly good backups" are encoded "on the fly" to MPEG2 format. This means that the encoding is effectivley "rushed" as opposed to encoding taking its time and so doing a better job.
4. To get one hour of DVD onto a single layer disc requires a bitrate of around 8Mbps (if the audio is compressed WAV), and a max of around 9Mbps - Roughly a third of DV AVI, so quality loss is inherent.
4. MPEG2 is not a format best-suited for editing, it's more of an "end product" format - i.e. no further tampering.

So, while it may be quicker and the quality may visually appear to be comparable, there are things to take into consideration if you plan to use the footage as a source for editing.

Personally, I'd stick with DV AVI if you plan to do any editing. This may take longer but will result in "BEST" (or, at least better) quality.

It's a case of "you don't get something for nothing" with video - there's always a balance between cost, time and quality. You can't get good quality with cheaper / quicker and so on...

[proxyx99]

Frankly that makes no sense to me at all. Either leave the stuff on a DV tape or encode to MPEG2 at a target bitrate (depending on needs). DV will always end up as MPEG2 (DVD format) for convenient viewing. Why encode in highest bitrate? No DVD is ever done this way. 6.5-7 k VBR and AC3 sound is all you need (max). I have plenty of DV tapes encoded to 6k that look as good as the original on a TV screen. Editing afterwards? Easy, make your cuts and throw in transitions (if needed). No previously encoded material will ever have to be reencoded. Why store DV files on a DVD disk? That makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Recording on DVD recorder like Liteon is exactly in line with what I said. You have MPEG2. And who said you cannot edit MPEG2? I've done that plenty of times with spectacular results. DV Avi is a transitional format, it's not meant for anything other then temp. storage (as long as the tape life permits) and if so why even bother transferring to DVD? You cannot even view it other then on your PC, so where's the benefit? Best possible quality? DVD movies have quality as good or better then DV so what is this "best quality"?

Dvnoob ended up doing what I said from the beginning, only difference he used hardware encoder instead of PC. Not my preferred way but who cares.

[Mac_User]

@daamon,

Thanks for filling in the gaps in my posting and your comment.

I think it is clear that the higher the bitrate, the better the quality. And so a DV stream of 25 Mbps can present a better video/audio quality then a MPEG stream of around 6-9 Mbps.

But as you pointed very clearly, its a matter of a balanced choice.

In my opinion it is a choice between the "best" and "very good and very usefull" quality. I choose for MPEG2 HQ for tape backups because the quality is really as good as the original DV for the eye, AND because MPEG2 can be edited without any quality loss with the proper apps.

If you take a few stills of both kind of backups you really have to enlarge the frame a lot more then 100% before you can see the difference between DV and MPEG2-HQ.

From this point of view the arguments that proxyx99 stated are valid. I support the same arguments so my advice to anyone who is strugling with the same "backUp" problem is to try both methods before you choose.

BTW, I always save the original DV tapes to be double secure.

Thanks again, regards, Wim.

[edDV]

RE: DV Archiving

Well it all depends on how serious you are about the material. For DV tapes that I want to keep for the future my process is this.

1. I edit down the raw DV tape into logged "scenes" that I find useful. I archive these back to DV tape for temporary storage and log the tapes into a database. Later these DV archived tapes will be transferred to Blu-Ray archive DVDR at full bit rate.

2. I edit the material into programs and save the timeline to DV tape and all authoring elements (project file, audio and graphic elements) to CDR or DVD. Of course I also keep a DVD copy master.

For the future, I am looking forward to Blu-Ray DVDR for longtime storage and expect to be using future HDTV (later 3DTV?) editors and encoders to integrate this material. I want to save everything in the highest archive quality for future use. DVD MPeg2 is not good enough if you intend to reuse the footage.