THE HOLY GRAIL? ... A new method of PAL to NTSC conversion!

[FulciLives]

It has recently come to my attention that the guys over at the doom9 forums have hammered out a new way of doing PAL DVD to NTSC DVD conversions. This method appears it will also work for any PAL format video source such as XivD and DivX etc.

Here is a link to the THREAD on doom9 where this is happening: CLICK HERE

Here is a link to a website that has the software that is needed to do this conversion: CLICK HERE

DGPulldown is the name of this new software (or utility if you will). It allows for the following:

Take a 25fps PAL video (interlaced or progressive) and create a NTSC DVD compliant progressive video that is the same length (running time) as the original PAL video so that the original PAL audio track can be used without the need to adjust the audio length (running time).

This is a very important development because with past methods of PAL to NTSC conversion the end result would either be an interlaced NTSC video (with original unaltered PAL audio) or a progressive NTSC video (with audio that had to be changed to adjust the length aka the running time).

I just heard about this new method as it came up in another thread here on videohelp.com but I didn't want it to get lost in that thread (the subject line does not mention anything about PAL to NTSC conversion etc.) so that is why I started this new thread.

Unfortunately I will not be able to test this new method myself until I finish a couple of other video projects (one of which I'm working on now) but as soon as I can I will try this out ... I'm very excited!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Another tool needed for this to work is the DVD2AVI mod known as DGMPGDec along with the usual suspects such as a DVD Ripper, AviSynth and a MPEG encoder of your choice etc.

[State Of Mind]

Doesn't NTSC have many disadvantages to it like color bleeding, anyway?

[Abond]

It seems the using of DGpulldown is a bit wider than PAL-NTSC pulldown. It can be used also for NTSCfilm (23.976 fps) to PAL (25 fps) pulldown without need to touch the audio. In fact it is possible also 20fps to 23.976 fps or to 25 fps or to 29.976 fps and the file will have the same duration.

[BJ_M]

only issue with this is the 'if its interlaced - convert it to progressive' , which will lose quality ...

far to much de-interlacing going on ...

this is also the way procoder does conversions btw ..
except youhave the option to keep it interlaced or go progressive ..

but thanks for the link - i like some of DGPulldown features ...

[FulciLives]

Doesn't NTSC have many disadvantages to it like color bleeding, anyway?

Many of us here in the USA and other NTSC countries strive to convert PAL DVD content etc. to NTSC DVD standard so that the converted NTSC DVD will play in any standard NTSC DVD player connected to any standard NTSC television.

In the USA (and most if not all NTSC countries) the PAL DVD format is not supported by standard equipment unless you have a special DVD player ... such players are now easier to find than they once were ... but are still not the "norm" hence the desire to convert to fully compliant NTSC DVD format.

I do not wish this THREAD to get into a PAL vs NTSC war!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BJ_M]

btw -- a lot of benefits in this method - - but the holy grail is still either snell and wilcox or some advanced interpolation methods with time master or fusion or shake or discreet ..

[BJ_M]

but since most people dont have 5000$ - $100,000 to throw at this ...

this is a great way ...

[FulciLives]

only issue with this is the 'if its interlaced - convert it to progressive' , which will lose quality ...

far to much de-interlacing going on ...

this is also the way procoder does conversions btw ..
except youhave the option to keep it interlaced or go progressive ..

but thanks for the link - i like some of DGPulldown features ...

Someone should add DGPulldown to the TOOLS list.

As for de-interlacing ...

Yes I know that de-interlacing in general is a BAD thing and interlaced 29.970fps NTSC that is de-interlaced just DOES NOT look "right".

However ... in the past I have taken interlaced 25fps PAL video and de-interlaced it in order to convert to progressive 23.976fps NTSC format and maybe I just have BAD EYES but it always looked good to me.

In my situation I mostly am using this for PAL DVD to NTSC DVD conversion and just about all of the PAL DVD discs I have done this with in the past have been progressive 25fps PAL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BJ_M]

yes - i do the same thing also for personal use -

[kabanero]

In the USA (and most if not all NTSC countries) the PAL DVD format is not supported by standard equipment unless you have a special DVD player ... such players are now easier to find than they once were ... but are still not the "norm"....

Target has CyberHome Progressive Scan DVD Player - CH-DVD320 on sale this week for $34.88. It can play PAL DVD and display it on NTSC TV. But I read on some forums (including this) that CH doesn't do a good job of conveting PAL to NTSC.

I use my JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder to play PAL DVDs on my Hitachi NTSC RPTV. JVC does exellent conversion..

Regarding JVC, I can even record Digital8 PAL video from my Sony NTSC Digital8 camcorder to JVC via S-Video input.

[junkmalle]

2:2:3:2:3 pulldown is not new. I've seen many European films broadcast that way on digital cable. I've even used TMPGEnc's "deal after this frame according to selected patterm" IVTC mechanism to convert back to progressive PAL (for AVI files).

[FulciLives]

In the USA (and most if not all NTSC countries) the PAL DVD format is not supported by standard equipment unless you have a special DVD player ... such players are now easier to find than they once were ... but are still not the "norm"....

Target has CyberHome Progressive Scan DVD Player - CH-DVD320 on sale this week for $34.88. It can play PAL DVD and display it on NTSC TV. But I read on some forums (including this) that CH doesn't do a good job of conveting PAL to NTSC.

I use my JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder to play PAL DVDs on my Hitachi NTSC RPTV. JVC does exellent conversion..

Regarding JVC, I can even record Digital8 PAL video from my Sony NTSC Digital8 camcorder to JVC via S-Video input.

We all know this ... that such DVD players exist ... that is region free DVD players that can do PAL to NTSC conversion for viewing on a standard NTSC television.

I don't care abou that. I have one. But sometimes you just want to do a proper conversion.

This thread is about re-encoding PAL to NTSC ... not about region free DVD players that can do PAL to NTSC conversion.

For this thread anyways ... I am NOT interested in that.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lumis]

maybe this doesnt matter for anything..

but there were some svcd movies i had in pal format..

i converted the video to ntsc dvd spec video w/ lpcm audio, extracted the lpcm audio, converted to ac3, authored with TDA, and burned.

once i checked the run times and noticed that the pal svcd ran just as long as the ntsc dvd.. which i was kind of surprised about..

holy grail? probably not

[FulciLives]

maybe this doesnt matter for anything..

but there were some svcd movies i had in pal format..

i converted the video to ntsc dvd spec video w/ lpcm audio, extracted the lpcm audio, converted to ac3, authored with TDA, and burned.

once i checked the run times and noticed that the pal svcd ran just as long as the ntsc dvd.. which i was kind of surprised about..

holy grail? probably not

You probably did the conversion incorrectly. Many people make this mistake when using TMPGEnc Plus. To make a long story short you ended up dropping and/or adding frames to the video and that is why the video length matched the audio length. The video may look OK to your eyes but it is BAD. Extra or dropped frames (in the way TMPGEnc Plus does it) when doing standards conversion (i.e., PAL to NTSC etc.) is a BAD thing.

When you do a "proper" standards conversion with TMPGEnc Plus (with no AviSynth trickery etc. but just with TMPGEnc Plus) a correct conversion will change the length of the video thus resulting in a need to change the audio as well so as to keep A/V sync.

That is how I know you screwed up :P

One Final Note: TMPGEnc Plus alone cannot do ALL types of standards conversion correctly ... some video sources will need outside help such as AviSynth to be done correctly.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lumis]

i'm sorry, i forgot to mention i used mainconcept mpeg encoder to convert the svcd mpeg (from disc image mounted through daemon tools) to a dvd spec ntsc mpeg w/ lpcm audio..

i could not really tell a difference between the 2 files, i just needed the file the result to be dvd spec.

[FulciLives]

i'm sorry, i forgot to mention i used mainconcept mpeg encoder to convert the svcd mpeg (from disc image mounted through daemon tools) to a dvd spec ntsc mpeg w/ lpcm audio..

i could not really tell a difference between the 2 files, i just needed the file the result to be dvd spec.

Different encoder but same result ... not done correctly.

Don't boast about things you do that are not correct ... especially when you are clueless about the subject.

This is the Advanced Conversion forum of the website.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lumis]

well excuse me.. i wasnt trying to boast..

i didnt realise that i was doing it incorrectly..

the content i convert usually isnt that great of quality to begin with, and i cant really tell the differnce between the 2 except that one is a lot more compatible in dvd players.. so thats what i do.

if i were trying to do a professional conversion i would probably go about it a better way..

how about this.. lets say for example i have a region free & multi-system dvd player, and i play a pal dvd in it that outputs to ntsc, which i then record to dvd with a standalone dvd recorder..

am i basically doing the same thing (screwing up), just a different way?

again, i'm not trying to boast.. just asking question and sharing my experiences.

[FulciLives]

... how about this.. lets say for example i have a region free & multi-system dvd player, and i play a pal dvd in it that outputs to ntsc, which i then record to dvd with a standalone dvd recorder..

am i basically doing the same thing (screwing up), just a different way?

If you don't want to put a lot of time and effert into it then this method will provide somewhat reasonable quality.

However if the original has multi-channel audio (like 5.1 Dolby Digital AC-3) then this method downmixes it to 2 channel stereo (still Dolby Pro-Logic surround if you are lucky). Also the image, from an MPEG compression standpoint, will not be as good as it could and perhaps worst of all you will have interlaced video instead of progressive video. However it will be more proper in that at least the frame rate will be correct ... note not optimal but correct since most likely, what you did with the Mainconcept MPEG encoder before, was very bad in terms of frame rate conversion.

So for optimal image and sound quality you really do need to do it on a computer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BJ_M]

or on a snell and wilcox Alchemist :P

[lumis]

... how about this.. lets say for example i have a region free & multi-system dvd player, and i play a pal dvd in it that outputs to ntsc, which i then record to dvd with a standalone dvd recorder..

am i basically doing the same thing (screwing up), just a different way?

If you don't want to put a lot of time and effert into it then this method will provide somewhat reasonable quality.

However if the original has multi-channel audio (like 5.1 Dolby Digital AC-3) then this method downmixes it to 2 channel stereo (still Dolby Pro-Logic surround if you are lucky). Also the image, from an MPEG compression standpoint, will not be as good as it could and perhaps worst of all you will have interlaced video instead of progressive video. However it will be more proper in that at least the frame rate will be correct ... note not optimal but correct since most likely, what you did with the Mainconcept MPEG encoder before, was very bad in terms of frame rate conversion.

So for optimal image and sound quality you really do need to do it on a computer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

the original doesnt have any special type of audio, just plain old stereo.. hint hint, wink wink..

i may start doing the dvd recorder conversion.. but then again, maybe not.. i like to crop the svcd video so it will be 16:9 AR.. it looks better than zooming and crap with my television with a dvd with a 4:3 source.

thanks for the information

[manono]

Hi-

I have no idea why some of you guys are badmouthing FulciLives and DGPulldown without even having tried it out yet. Yes, the source has to be progressive. Yes, if it's originally interlaced, it has to be deinterlaced. So, if you don't want to deinterlace your source, then don't use DGPulldown.

It does not work like Procoder. It does not work like Main Concept. Those encoders will convert PAL to NTSC by adding fields/frames to achieve 29.97fps, sometimes by blending. So, not only do you have either crap blended frames or dupe frames in the result, but you're also storing 29.97fps in the resulting DVD, thus wasting precious bits. This PAL to NTSC conversion method will store 25fps, with DGPulldown run to output 29.97fps, just as you would when you store 23.976fps on the DVD, and use regular Pulldown to set the flags to output 29.97fps. This is indeed in many ways a Holy Grail for those that do a lot of such conversions.

The film stays the same length. The audio does not have to be reencoded. It plays fine on the dozen or so software and standalones on which I've tested it. It saves bits for the 25fps video that might otherwise be wasted on 29.97fps. For those with progressive displays it's even better, as you'll get back 25fps non-blended, non-deinterlaced, non-duped clear clean frames.

Try it out on a movie you've done before with Procoder, for example, where you didn't slow the video and adjust the audio. Then play them both on a standalone, pausing and advancing frame by frame. Or open the finished vobs in VDubMod, or MPC and advance frame by frame. And then come back and say DGPulldown's not a better method. Until then, some of you guys don't know what you're talking about.

On a side note, as a silent film fan, being able to encode at just about any framerate above 20fps makes silent films play much better on an HDTV than before. No deinterlacing goes on, and the films look their best being able to be encoded as Progressive.

[Baldrick]

does this work on all players?

[FulciLives]

does this work on all players?

Well I read the doom9 forum thread on this (all 17 pages) and so far someone only mentioned a single DVD player that did not work with this method (it was a Panny DVD recorder ... exact model not identified).

This method is so new that it probably is hard to answer this question for now but it seems that the early reports are so far very promising. I'm hoping the Panny DVD recorder that didn't work was an old model like the DMR-E20 or DMR-E30 both of which have pretty much been dumped by NTSC users because of the "black level bug". In other words hopefully newer Panny DVD recorders work better. A friend of mine has a DMR-E55 so I will test on that once I get around to testing this method.

Like I just said I will be testing this method very soon and will report on compatability .. I will try on as many DVD players as I can get my hands on LOL!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

And I wouldn't take that one report of it not playing on 1 DVD player at face value. Some of the people contributing to that thread aren't so knowledgeable.

[spon23]

I posted this in another tread that had a link to this one. I believe this is probably the correct thread for my question. Sorry for the duplicate.

In the past in order to convert PAL to NTSC i've had pretty good success using the assumefps (23.976) command in my script and then slowing down my audio in BeSweet to 23.976 also. works pretty good, but I thought I'd try this new technique.

I converted my PAL avi to a PAL mpeg 2 file using DVD2SVCD (settings on AVI2DVD). I then ran the m2v file thru DGPulldown with the default settings and 25fps -> 29.976.

I then loaded the resulting m2v file and the original AC3 audio file (which I demuxed from the original PAL avi file) into TMPGEnc DVD Author to author the DVD. The resulting picture looks great, however the audio is out of sync.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[FulciLives]

Well I finally got to use DGPulldown on a PAL DVD to NTSC DVD-R conversion.

It worked really well. Excellent picture quality with smooth motion and totally in sync with the original 5.1 AC-3 audio.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

I posted this in another tread that had a link to this one. I believe this is probably the correct thread for my question. Sorry for the duplicate.

In the past in order to convert PAL to NTSC i've had pretty good success using the assumefps (23.976) command in my script and then slowing down my audio in BeSweet to 23.976 also. works pretty good, but I thought I'd try this new technique.

I converted my PAL avi to a PAL mpeg 2 file using DVD2SVCD (settings on AVI2DVD). I then ran the m2v file thru DGPulldown with the default settings and 25fps -> 29.976.

I then loaded the resulting m2v file and the original AC3 audio file (which I demuxed from the original PAL avi file) into TMPGEnc DVD Author to author the DVD. The resulting picture looks great, however the audio is out of sync.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Maybe the AVI had bad frames?

Maybe you had the wrong settings in AVI2DVD?

Maybe you didn't correctly extract the AC-4 audio?

All I can say is it worked perfectly for me with a PAL DVD as a source and I see no reason why it would not correctly work with a PAL AVI assuming that AVI has no errors.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Heff]

Is there step by step directions from ripping the PAL DVD/mpeg to the final NTFC compliant mpeg? One that a novice could follow .... TIA

[zorankarapancev]

FulciLives, it would be great if you can make a tutorial for all of us.

[Abond]

@spon23
You get an answer at doom9 from manono . Shortly: DVD2SVCD will convert to PAL resolution. You need to convert to NTSC resolution with pal framerates. It seems TDA is confused: PAL resolution at 29.976 (!?!)