THE HOLY GRAIL? ... A new method of PAL to NTSC conversion!

[jhr1948]

always helping out noobs like me

thanks fulcilives

just to make sure is:
"ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=false)" correct when using

"Telecide(order=0,guide=2)" w/the decomb521 filter?

btw, this pulldown method does give better result (from what i've tried), will most dvd players not throw up when you feed something that used pulldown?

[FulciLives]

always helping out noobs like me

thanks fulcilives

just to make sure is:
"ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=false)" correct when using

"Telecide(order=0,guide=2)" w/the decomb521 filter?

btw, this pulldown method does give better result (from what i've tried), will most dvd players not throw up when you feed something that used pulldown?

I'm no expert at deinterlacing PAL video with Telecide but assuming that Telecide command you noted above is deinterlacing the video then you will be feeding your encoder progressive video so the last line in your script (assuming you use CCE) should be "ConvertToYUY2()" which again is the same as saying "ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=false)"

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[manono]

Hi-

Telecide(Order=0,Guide=2) is for cases when you have the PAL problem of "shifted fields". It realigns them again into progressive frames. However, since the Decomb deinterlacer is on by default, you might try a version of your script without the deinterlacer to confirm that it had shifted fields originally. That would be Telecide(Order=0,Guide=2,Post=0). Then open it in VDubMod and scroll around to confirm that the interlacing is gone. And by the way, are you sure the field order is BFF (Order=0). Ordinarily DVDs are TFF (Order=1).

If changing the field order doesn't help, and it still appears interlaced with the post-processor (deinterlacer) turned off, then you really have an interlaced stream, and there are much better ways to deinterlace than with Telecide. I'd suggest either KernelDeint or TDeint.

[jhr1948]

thanks for the advice manono, i ended being helped w/scharfis_brain at doom9. he checked out a clip and reccomended restore24 revisited. i had no clue what i was doing so he corrected my script to this:

import("restore24.avs")
loadplugin("masktools.dll")
loadplugin("tdeint.dll")
loadplugin("leakkerneldeint.dll")
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
loadplugin("avisynth_c.dll")
loadcplugin("smartdecimate.dll")
loadCplugin("ibob.dll")

Mpeg2Source("3.d2v",cpu=4)
a2=r24kernelbob(0)
b2=TDeint(mode=1,type=2,tryweave=false,full=true)
restore24(a2, b2)
LanczosResize(width,480,0,2,width,572)

and honestly i understood maybe about half of what i was doing. but i'm going to read up to find out what it all meant. apparantly, my pal dvd was encoded from ntsc source and ended up w/blended fields. i load this script into vdubmod and save avi. it's so clean i can't believe it. i encoded a tiny clip w/cce and it still looked good even at a low bitrate. the only thing i'm not sure about is if i'm going to have to adjust the audio. restore24 makes 25 fps to 23.976 fps.

thanks for the suggestion.

[manono]

OK then, if scharfi was on the case, you were in good hands. Next time before posting, be sure of what you have. Put on a Smart Bobber such as KernelBob(Order=1) or TDeint(Mode=1) to separate the source into fields and check whether your source is field blended, interlaced (movement every field), or progressive (2,2,2,2 if PAL, and 2,3,2,3 if NTSC (where the numbers represent the number of times the same field is shown)).

...the only thing i'm not sure about is if i'm going to have to adjust the audio

For what? AVI? No, I don't see why that would be necessary. For DVDR? Although I've only used DGPulldown for NTSC, I guess it works for PAL, in which case no audio adjusting necessary. If you want to make the DVDR PAL 720x576 at 25fps, then you add AssumeFPS(25) to your script, and yes, the audio length has to be adjusted. You'll get the PAL speedup, though, with the resulting slightly higher pitched audio. I guess most PAL people don't find that annoying.

[jhr1948]

sorry, i should have checked what i had (this part of video is very new to me). i've learned a lot w/this project.

as far as adjusting audio what i meant was that if i took this 25fps dvd video and use restore24 to make an avi that's 23.976 fps, will that affect my audio if plan to encode this avi into a ntsc mpeg to make a ntsc dvdr. that's why i figure i would use dgpulldown to change the the fps to 29.97.

[manono]

Hi-

what i meant was that if i took this 25fps dvd video and use restore24 to make an avi that's 23.976 fps, will that affect my audio if plan to encode this avi into a ntsc mpeg to make a ntsc dvdr.

It comes out of Restore24 with the audio still in synch.

[jhr1948]

manono
not sure if you're still there, but i was hoping you could give me your expert opinion.

as i mentioned, sharfi was nice enough to set me up w/a good script using restore24. it looks great. there are only 2 problems i see and am curious if there's something i can change in the script to help the problems.

1. when scene's fade in and out, the black fade is a bit blocky. i know its not the encode, b/c its in the avi i created using the script sharfi helped me out w/ and i also used lagarith codec which is lossless. the source doesn't have that, so i have to assume it's restore24

2. also, every few frames or so there is a wierd slight ghosting thing going on. i kind of figure that i'm stuck w/that considering it is blended fields dvd. but it's worth a shot mentioning.

i checked for any posts on restore24 here and saw that you mention that it's not the route you would take. so, i was wondering what script would you use so i can get another method to compare.
i first used xesdeeni's standard conversion script, but it was before i knew much, so the blended frames thing sucked w/that. then i tried restore24 how sharfi recommended.
thanks for all the hlep

[vhelp]

@ fulci

I noticed in the above post that my first AviSynth AVS script
got all screwed up due to having BBCode/Automatic Tool Link on so in
this post I have disabled all that so that my AviSynth AVS script will
look "normal" now as it should:

FWIW..

The reason might be because you edited that post a 2nd time (or more)
and when you edit, the bbcode is already there (url-linked tools) and
they have to be edited out before you post your revision, else you'll
have the issue.
.
This is why I use notepad/wordpad and write all my no-sense
(then, I just revise there, and copy/paste untouched text)

Again, fwiw..

Cheers,
-vhelp 3316

[manono]

Hi jhr1948-

1. I'm not sure I fully understand. The original AVI was OK? But when reencoded using Lagarith it showed the blockiness during fades? I don't really see how it could be Restore24 that did it. So I guess I'd have to say I don't know the answer.

2. Open the AVI in VDubMod and find a place with movement and see if the ghosts/double images are there. Restore24 isn't perfect, and it often doesn't remove all the ghosting. However, I did find out something interesting the other day, and that is the version of AviSynth you have installed can make a big difference in how well Restore24 works:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=646205#post646205

i checked for any posts on restore24 here and saw that you mention that it's not the route you would take. so, i was wondering what script would you use so i can get another method to compare.

I'm not sure to which thread you're referring. However, I've never used it to go from PAL 25fps back to NTSC 23.976fps, so it must have been something else. Maybe it was my sometime preference for using RePAL over Restore24 when I have a bad blended PAL to NTSC conversion.

[jhr1948]

hey thanks for the reply manono
1. i guess i should have been more clear. i have my dvd(source) that is pal. i clipped a piece and that's when neuron2 told me it was blended fields. then sharfi recommended restore24 and helped me w/a script. so i ran dgindex on each episode(its an episode disk) and added the d2v's to the script. sharfi had sugg. to open the avi script (that incl. restore24) in vdub and create an avi. i used lagarith codec (which is lossless, although i've always used huffyuv) to create the avi. so in that final avi there is already the wierd blockiness when scenes fade in & out. even before i encode to mpeg.

i used xesdeeni's script a long time ago and did not have the blockiness during fade ins and out, also the source dvd does not have that problem. so i figure it has to be something in the restore24 script.

actually, regarding your post about restore24 and avisynth version. i did run into that a few days ago, so i can't remember what avisynth version i have, but it might not be the one they recommended. however, they seem to describe it as horrible when it's the wrong version, so i figured that my version i have wasn't that bad. the blockiness during fades & ghosting are the only 2 wierd things i see, other than that, picture is much smoother than other methods i've tried.

i guess i was curious of other methods to deinterlace blended field crap which i've never dealt w/before.
thanks for all the help

[manono]

Hi jhr1948-

I guess you got the answer to the blocking problem over at Doom9. So it was the TDeint setting in Restore24. I learned something, too.

My biggest complaint about Restore24 is that it sometimes doesn't produce smooth playback. Duplicate frames are kept, and unique frames are dropped. It's a SmartDecimate problem, and not really a Restore24 problem. This may not be a problem with PAL material, but it's often a problem with NTSC material. I sometimes wind up using:

TDeint(Mode=1)
BlendBob()
TDecimate(Mode=0,CycleR=x,Cycle=xx)

It always plays smoothly, but often leaves behind some of the blended frames. But blending is still better than jerky playback. That script is real slow, though.

To find out which version of AviSynth you have installed, make a new .avs (maybe call it Version.avs), and inside have one line:

Version()

Open that in VDubMod and it will tell you. But if your current version works well, you may as well stick with it.

[mpiper]

I haven't read the entire thread, just skimmed it.

I actually had a reason to use this method just recently. I was converting some PAL DivX videos of TV shows that I can't get locally. I wanted to save several episodes to a single disc.

The source material was 640X352 or some such, progressive and PAL 25fps.

None of the software I have would provide a simple solution. So, here was the process I followed:

1. Open DivX video in VDub and resize to 740X480 16:9, sharpen, and save as MJPEG AVI.
2. Open DivX Video in Audition and export the Audio Wave file
3. Open the new AVI in CCE and convert to MPEG2.
4. Open the WAV in AC3 Machine and convert to AC3 Audio.
5. Open the new MPV mpeg2 file in DGPulldown and convert to 29.97fps.
6. Mux MPV and AC3 together and author the DVD.

This finished DVD plays perfectly in all three home DVD players I own, as well as all my PCs both home and work.

[jhr1948]

manono thanks for the sugg.
as far as solving the blocky problem, it's half solved(kind of spoke too soon). i had to find a compromise. setting thresh too high cleared up blocky fade in & out but it caused fast motion scenes to look horrible. so i am looking for other methods just to compare. i definately am impressed w/restore24, but want to attempt your sugg.

i read the guide for tdecimate & even looked around forums, but i dont totally understand this:
TDecimate(Mode=0,CycleR=x,Cycle=xx)
or at least how to determine cycle & cycler numbers. i get the concept of them, i just don't understand the best way to figure out how many frames to drop in each cycler and what how to best determine how many frames should be in a cycle.

thanks for all the help, sorry if i'm being a bother.
jose

[manono]

Nah, no bother-

CycleR is the number of duplicate frames to be removed in a Cycle. So, if you're converting a PAL 25fps blended DVD back to the original NTSC 24fps, then you remove 1 frame in a cycle of 25:

TDecimate(Mode=0,CycleR=1,Cycle=25) #although sometimes TDecimate(Mode=0,CycleR=2,Cycle=50) may work better (and more slowly)

This is a bit off topic, so if you have other questions that aren't DGPulldown related, why don't you PM me at Doom9.

[maccool111]

Don't know if it works the other way but Canopus ProCoder NTSC to PAL no muss no fuss.

[jhr1948]

thanks manono,
you know before you responded i figured that part out. in fact, i set it to exactly what you sugg.

#although sometimes TDecimate(Mode=0,CycleR=2,Cycle=50) may work better (and more slowly)

you're right, it is pretty slow. i think it's gone 7 hours(the video is 21min) and still has 3 hours to go. d'oh. it's worth a try, i think. restore24 takes 5 1/2 hours, so it's no big deal.


@maccool111
actually i forgot to mention that was the very 1st method i attempted. it looked horrible. apparantly since mine is a blended fields video, it made it look way too jumpy. i soon reaolized that you have more control w/avisynth. thanks for the sugg.

jhr1948

[DJRumpy]

Fulci, this looks to use the same telecine method you came up with a few years ago for 25 to 29.97 fps. Granted, it has the addional pulldown options for film to pal and such, but it appears to be the same overall. Handy if you want to avoid messing with the audio. I haven't had any quality issues of late using AC3Machine to convert from pal to film with AC3/DTS 5.1 audio, but still handy I suppose. Any word on problems with said conversions being displayed on hd?

[danzeb]

Its options are limited but for a simple AVI PAL to NTSC DVD conversion I just use DIKO (free). Select the AVI file or files and click BURN. Done.

[vrieze42]

I am wondering why nobody uses DVDSanta? I got ahold of a Pal movie that is not available here and used that program to convert with like 3 clicks and wait until the next morning (9 hours). For the purists who know everything about converting use the long method. For most of the rest of us who just want to watch on a NTSC unit, why not just advise them to use this program and forget the hassles? I've read thread after thread where the experts spend days walking the beginner through the process. Just tell them to use DVDSanta and it will be done by the next day. Saves everyone time and headaches trying to get everything exactly correct. Oh well, that's my 2 cents worth......

[Guest34343]

I'd just like to point out something about the ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=???) discussion. When decoding MPEG2 it's possible to have pictures encoded progressive or interlaced *in the same clip*. There is an MPEG2 syntax flag that states which encoding is used for each picture. DGMPGDec can perform the upsampling for you based upon this flag. To do that use the upConv=true option. Using ConvertToYUY2() uses a fixed setting for all the pictures and that can create incorrect upsampling for some pictures. Of course, when you use upConv=true, you omit the ConvertToYUY2().

There's a caveat to the above, however. There are rare instances of DVDs not setting the progressive_frame flag correctly.

This is an interesting thread because it brings to my attention some additional applications of DGPulldown. I'll enhance the document to mention those. Thank you for the interesting comments.

[FulciLives]

I am seeing too many questins about PAL to NTSC so this is just a simple BUMP to get this "old" thread back into the limelight.

I hope it helps some people.

Remember most downloaded AVI files that are PAL format (25fps) are PROGRESSIVE since they tend to be XviD or DivX so the same proceedure will work with some minor changes.

FitCD is a great program to use to figure out how to resize the PAL AVI to NTSC DVD standard.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[mariop]

Can I convert PAL audio to NTSC audio without converting the video?

This involves 2 DVD editions (PAL & NTSC) of the same movie in which I wish to exchange the audio.

[manono]

Not really DGPulldown related, but, yes, it's easy enough to do what you want. I just gave a fellow instructions on how to do it. He was switching audio to a different language, but the principle is the same:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=282841&highlight=

You'll have to first slow the PAL audio down to NTSC speed. I'll assume you already know how to do that. And if there are different opening logos on the different DVDs, you may have synch problems. Those can be overcome with adding delays to the audio. But if both DVDs are identical except for one being PAL and the other NTSC, you shouldn't have any problems.

[mariop]

Indeed manono it is not directly related but it is about PAL to NTSC conversion. The two DVDs are not identical (one is from Hong Kong and one from Belgium) but the movie is the same.

I followed your instructions and as you suspected, I have a small synch problem. No I did not slow down the audio. Thus I need further help from you on this phase of my project.

So far this is what I did:
1. demux using PGCDemux
2. reauthor using ifoedit replacing audio

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

[junkmalle]

If the audio is off by a constant amount the entire duration of the movie then all you have to do is delay or advance the audio to match the video.

If the audio starts out in sync, then drifts more and more out of sync as time goes by you need to adjust the length of the audio with a program like GoldWave or CoolEditPro.

If either of the two movies have had scenes cut or added you'll have to work in sections. This may take a lot of work.

[mariop]

I follow what you are saying junkmalle. Is there a mapping between the video stream and the audio stream that I can work with, or is it purely a trial and error thing?

I other words, does the video file and audio file contain objective temporal markers so that they can be mapped?

[junkmalle]

does the video file and audio file contain objective temporal markers so that they can be mapped?

No, you have to do it by ear and eye. Watch for lip sync, a door slamming shut, etc.

[FulciLives]

PAL is 25fps whereas NTSC is 23.976fps

To convert PAL audio to NTSC audio you have to adjust the length aka the running time.

Use the following formula.

25/23.976 = 104.271%

For instance if the PAL running time is 90 minutes then you increase the running time by 104.271%

90 * 104.271% = 93.8439 which is approximately 93 minutes 51 seconds

To double check yourself another formula is as follows:

PAL running time / 23.976 = X

X * 25 = NTSC running time

So with our example:

90 / 23.976 = 3.754

3.754 * 25 = 93.85 which is approximately 93 minutes 51 seconds

So using a WAV editing program you would TIME STRETCH the PAL audio by 104.271% to get it to the proper NTSC length.

Another option is to use BeSweet which has a built-in PAL to NTSC conversion. When using BeSweet it is best done when going from WAV to WAV.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[mariop]

Thanks for info Fulci.

Mario from Wexford near North Park. Go Steelers GO!