MPEG2 Encoder Comparisons?

[rantanplan]

Well, I would like to know, how is the quality of the most common MPEG2 Encoders in comparison?

The most used one would be mpeg2enc I think, which does not have 2-pass encoding, and I don't really have any idea if it uses VBR.
Then there is the MPEG2 Encoder inside Toast 6. Since you can't set the average bitrate, it's rather useless, despite the fact that it really has variable bitrate.
Then there is bitvice. I've read it uses real vbr. But, can I set the average bitrate? Does it have a 2-pass option?

And how are those encoders in comparison?

[rantanplan]

Maybe I'll have to figure it out myself after all

[terryj]

If mpeg2enc doesn't have 2pass, it is definitely a Constant Bit Rate encoder, as most Constant bitrate encoders
are single pass. variable Bit Rate encoders would use
2 passes to establish a variable bit rate.

Toast 6 does use variable encoding, but Roxio/sonic
set the encoder so it targets a DVD-5, so
its locked at about 2.4 mbps.

BitVice and Compressor, the other you forgot to mention,
both allow you to customize the bitrate (variable or constant)
as well as nail down the min and max Mbps encoding.

since I have only used the Toast 6 and Compressor encoders,
I can say I much more prefer Compressor,
simply for the customization it enables, and the output
is fairly decent, depending on my source material.

[NarenFish]

Is the Quicktime MPEG2 export function the same as the encoder used in Compressor?

[terryj]

no.
Quicktime has a native MPEG2 playback DE-coder,
but it does not have a native MPEG-2 EN-coder.
That is reserved for Compressor alone.

If you have a QT export to MPEG function,
chances are it was either from an older version
of Toast, or is the MPEG-4 function, which isn't
MPEG-2.

[sjk]

Add Digigami MegaPEG.X to the list of MPEG encoders for OS X.

[DeadLily]

If you check the Bitvice forums on their site (www.innobits.com), there's a lot of discussion about Bitvice's proper handling of color issues, while Compressor's results are not up to spec. The Innobits guys know what they're doing, and I wouldn't consider using any other encoder.

[ykz]

Add Digigami MegaPEG.X to the list of MPEG encoders for OS X.

not to forget ffmpeg

[reloc]

I'm curious as to why it takes so long to convert from avi to mpeg2. I tried to use Toast but after letting it run for hours on end, I just gave up when I saw how little had actually been done.

I understand that a faster processor and more ram would speed up the process but not significantly (and by that, I mean down to a single digit number of hours - or something reasonable). Is there any such encoder?

[SERBIAN]

One of the fastest software MPEG encoder for Mac is MainConcept MPEG Encoder...Works great and output quality is awesome...

[geezerbuttz]

SERBIAN... I second that ...throw the others away... the output is great and the speed is to cool.

[terryj]

GB and Seriban,
I'm curious...how well does the MPEG2's genereated
by Main Concept's product work with DVDSP3?
How does it compare to HQ 2 pass VBR from Compressor?

[miksu]

I use mainly Bitvice for DVDs. It does fantastic quality and has few good filters for noisy material etc. However, it can't encode at low rates, like SVCD requires.

[geezerbuttz]

it tends to output a muxed stream , but after demux it works a charm...

DVDSP3 = good.

[geezerbuttz]

i tried Digigami demo == pile of crap.

macroblocks and banding gradients all over the place... save your money and time.

[geezerbuttz]

main concept mpeg encoder can be set to output elementary streams , AND it can also do noise reduction , and it can also have its encoder engine tweaked in a wide variety of ways to improve the results.... its better in my opinion than bitvice. I mean , bitvice cant have a noise threshold set to decide what is noice in a frame by frame basis and what is video data...also bitvice has no settings for Qpel movement...edge thresholding etc etc.. also MC open the encoder with the Advance panel where you can go realy wild.

I have now tried all the settings and have found them to all be compliant with VCD , SVCD , DVD standards

hope that answers the questions.

[havema-1]

Prompted by this thread, I very quickly evaluated the current demo versions of MainConcept MPEG Encoder 1.5.1, BitVice Lite 1.5.2, Digigami MegaPEG.X Batch 2.0 and Digigami MegaPEG.X QT 2.0. (Unless otherwise stated, I did the tests with the default settings with my old interlaced 1 minute test .dv clip).

MainConcept MPEG Encoder ($249) was a very positive experience although the price is too high for an average consumer (Windows version is only $149!). The quality with the default settings was about the same or slightly better than with iDVD 5's BestQuality setting. The GUI is OK but BitVice's GUI is cleaner. Then again, MainConcept has more room for tweaking for those who know what they are doing. I also did a quick Half-D1 test with 5 kb/s and it seems OK although I didn't try to get the aspect ratio perfect (i.e. crop 720x576 to 704x576, and scale it to 352x576) -- I only did a quick and dirty 720x576 scaling to 352x576.

BitVice Lite ($149) seemed slightly blockier in a few scenes even after I increased its average bitrate to the same ~7 kb/s as I used in other apps. The price is right for the average user who wants more control than iDVD can provide (Sizzle or Toast can be used for authoring), and for whom DVDSP and Compressor ($500) are too expensive and complicated.

Quality-wise, Digigami MegaPEG.X Batch 2.0 ($240) and Digigami MegaPEG.X QT 2.0 ($240) seemed identical. The latter is a QuickTime Export plug-in which allows one to output MPEG straight from iMovie, QuickTime Player etc. Digigami's default settings were much too smooth and fuzzy for my taste, disabling smoothing produced crisper output but introduced also slight blockiness, somewhat similar to BitVice in some difficult scenes. With the tweaked settings the quality was not so bad in my quick test. The GUI was somewhat confusing at first although I can see that some effort was made to make it easy for the beginners.

Digigami MegaPEG.X Batch's bitrate and quantization chart was a very positive surprise! I fiddled a while with it and it very nicely showed that iDVD's BestPerformance setting is CBR and other interesting facts in MPEGs (it actually reads the bitrate info from demultiplexed m2v).

I also encoded the same clip also via MediaPipe/mpeg2enc ($0) at 7kb/s and the quality was quite good. Is there any other mpeg2enc variant that can output interlaced MPEG??! MediaPipe was nice but its development has been stalled for a very long time.

BTW, LaCie FastCoder ($249) seems to currently support only NTSC.

Notice that this was a very quick test so YMMV.

[wingsabove]

IMHO the best mpeg2 encoder is a set top box which can capture analog sources in real time, high resolution picture/sound quality at 4.0 mbs, excellent Dynamic Noise Reduction, VBR, custom bitrates, no data breaks, OSX 10.3.8 stable and affordable. I am referring to the now discontinued ADS InstantDVD with the latest software upgrades for Capty 2.2 and Pixedv 2.2 (available from LaCie). It is very hard to improve upon near perfection.

The DNR is so good that it not only removes noise but can also actually restore very old vhs tapes to a vivid, life-like realism. In the 80s we bought a videotape from at a rental store which was a bad copy and had been played on hundreds of customer vcrs. The DNR in default settings restored this old dog to first generation master quality, picture and sound. My family was astounded at the before and after.

(Some boxes may still be at Other World Computing for $109; add $75 for the Capty and Pixedv upgrades.)

I have tried several software encoders, and they simply don't compare to a prosumer hardware encoder. Another hardware encoder, also being discontinued in Japan, is the Pixela U1m - which bears a striking similarility to the InstantDVD box with a TV tuner added. The set top/capture software also seems to be virtually identical to Pixedv 2.2 - as can be seen in Process Viewer (PID 573) and elsewhere.

[rantanplan]

You might not actual know this, but here in germany, the big cities are currently changing from analog tv signals to dvb-t. so there is really no need for analog capturing boxes

[SERBIAN]

The best hardware MPEG encoder for Mac is MEDIAPRESS MPEG ENCODER ...

"Realtime MPEG1 or MPEG2 encoding

The realtime operation of MediaPress gives content producers immediate access to their MPEG files for quick incorporation into their multimedia project. A 1 hour video takes 1 hour to encode. This realtime operation is also crucial for any type of network movie distribution system since the video and audio must be encoded ‘on the fly’ with the data being sent immediately over a network.

MediaPress encodes video in realtime into MPEG1 or MPEG2 streams, CBR (Constant Bit Rate) or VBR (Variable Bit Rate), from 768 kb/s up to 9 Mb/s, scalable up to Full-D1 resolution NTSC or PAL. MediaPress captures audio in realtime into PCM streams; it can also create MPEG audio streams.

The MediaPress includes a complete, easy to use, software application for creation of a variety of MPEG streams (Elementary Video & Audio, Multiplexed System and Program streams) which are compatible with many Video CD, SuperVideoCD, and DVD authoring systems. The MediaPress software provides realtime previewing of the encoded material for review before and during recording. Add the forthcoming Mason HD decoder for preview and playback to standard TV and displays.

And of course, MediaPress provides serial machine control for most popular decks (serial port not included)

All the Right Connections

MediaPress X includes all the inputs you'll need: composite, s-video, component (YUV) and SDI for video plus balanced and unbalanced analog, S/PDIF and AES/EBU digital inputs for audio."

[geezerbuttz]

And the difference between medipress and software encoding is.......


££££££££$$$$$$$$$££££££££$$$$$$$$£££££££$$$$$$$£££ £££$$$$$...

i think that sums it up... mediapress has always been very overpriced..BUT saying that i base my remarks on old prices ( last year ).

If they have become more reasonable , i take it all back.

GB

[geezerbuttz]

Yep Im right.....

$3799 MPX
$2199 MPX Lite

Refurbished...

$2999.

no contest really is it.?

and the winner is ADS InstantDVD.........

[thoughton]

no.
Quicktime has a native MPEG2 playback DE-coder,
but it does not have a native MPEG-2 EN-coder.
That is reserved for Compressor alone.

If you have a QT export to MPEG function,
chances are it was either from an older version
of Toast, or is the MPEG-4 function, which isn't
MPEG-2.

Actually ... I once made a similarly uninformed post, and several people helped me remove my foot from my mouth - you get a QT MPEG2 ENcoding codec when you buy DVDSP or FCP.

[kiyookasan]

i tried Digigami demo == pile of crap.

macroblocks and banding gradients all over the place... save your money and time.

Hi - Gen here from Digigami

When I designed our new encoder core, I took all of what were considered to be the 'best' encoders and built an analysis tool (MPressionst) so I could fully understand how ours was performing.

Our product is not designed to do blind, single take encoding. Instead, the idea is you make successive encodes, and do a visual and quantitative analysis of each iteration, and then make adjustments and encode again.

When I do this myself, I select a representative 30s or 60s segment from the material and do my tests with that, and look at the intermediates with either the built-in analyser or MPressionist.X Pro.

Once I have a set of settings I like, including how much high-frequency filtering (an ISO recommendation from the specs), I make a comp with the algorithm set to 'Fast & Good'. When that runs to completion, I do another analysis with MPressionist, and if the bitrate is fine, then I slide the Quality slider to maximum quality, and let the encode crank for a day or two. On our maximum quality, you should get results which exceed hardware encoders like Wired because we are using single precision floating point in our encoder core rather than fixed point.

A lot of times, a first pass with Digigami is probably not going to beat other encoders, but if you iterate and tune the way I'm describing, we are very competitive.

We do some other things that no other encoder does, like allow you to use a high-bitrate with extremely fast algorithms, which is going to get you a file done about 6-8 times faster than MainConcept.

Another thing we do that I haven't seen any other MPEG-1/2 encoder, hardware or software, is extremely low VBR. Check out the Half-D1 handheld camcorder sample from our site. At that bitrate, with AC3 audio, you can get about 10hrs of material on a DVD-5 with 480 vertical lines of resolution.

Anyway, if you're interested in exploring our product further; until you have success with it, I'll be happy to work with you on the settings until you get something you like.

For sure, if you're looking for a 1-button encode, ours ain't it.

Gen

[kiyookasan]

Actually ... I once made a similarly uninformed post, and several people helped me remove my foot from my mouth - you get a QT MPEG2 ENcoding codec when you buy DVDSP or FCP.

From my analysis of the files produced by Apple encoders, there seems to be two primary variants. There is one encoder used by the Pro toolset which is embodied by the QT MPEG-2 Exporter. And there is another encoder used by the iDVD product which is a different animal altogether.

For example, the Apple 'pro' encoder uses linear quantization on B-frames, and non-linear on I and P frames (MPEG-2 feature), whereas the iDVD encoder is using linear quantization. This suggests a different bitrate control mechanism in the encoder.

[kiyookasan]

One of the fastest software MPEG encoder for Mac is MainConcept MPEG Encoder...Works great and output quality is awesome...

Hi Tosa,

I thought MainConcept was doing a pretty good job until I saw this:
http://www.bobhudson.com/FrameGlitch.jpg

Those strange white blocks on the frame on the right are a diagnostic feature of MPressionist.X which puts 'zebra' blocks into macroblocks that cannot properly be decoded. One would hope to never see those 'zebra' blocks on a production encoder.

This example is from a replicated disc. I was hoping to analyze the disc myself, but haven't had a chance to.

There is a chance that the muxer that produced this disc failed to faithfully packetize the video elementary stream - or - there were 'hard' errors in the master provided for replication - so it's not entirely conclusive. Nevertheless, the pattern of erroneous blocks suggests an encoder problem.

Gen Kiyooka
Digigami

[SERBIAN]

Hi Gen,

I sow lot of that macroblocs errors when I tried to setup the encoder from MC SDK to work with my other app - LumiereHD...After lot of emails exchange with MC people I was able to solve that problem...

The reason I mentioned MC encoder only and not yours /which I use with great succsess too/ is that your product is mentiond on one post before mine...

Personally I never had any troubles neither with your product or MC application /except with SDK - but we are talking about apps now, not developing things/...I have to say that I like your interface better and of course there is no such GREAT tool like MPressionist.

To conclude...Everyone looking for PRO MPEG encoding software should choose between Digigami and MC app(s)...

One more thing to add...Mr. Gen and his Digigami is with Mac users from begining of MPEG "revolution" /LONG time/....MainConcept arrived at Mac market recently...

[geezerbuttz]

i tried Digigami demo == pile of crap.

macroblocks and banding gradients all over the place... save your money and time.

Hi - Gen here from Digigami

When I designed our new encoder core, I took all of what were considered to be the 'best' encoders and built an analysis tool (MPressionst) so I could fully understand how ours was performing.

right i may of been a little sharp with my comment but , after testing the original OS 9 coder , ( and finding it wanting in the quality department ) I was a little dismayed to find the OS X encoder to be of the same quality....

So , you say that you need to do a lot of testing to set up your encoder settings...
You dont mention this in the manual do you... and the interface points the user in the direction of " set and forget "

I strongly suggest you re-write the manual giving ( as you did above ) a very good example of the methods that you employ to achieve a good encoding.

Dont get me wrong , I agree my original comment was a little strong , but you need to give the user more details on the application.

GeezerButtz.

[kiyookasan]

i tried Digigami demo == pile of crap.

macroblocks and banding gradients all over the place... save your money and time.

Hi - Gen here from Digigami
When I designed our new encoder core, I took all of what were considered to be the 'best' encoders and built an analysis tool (MPressionst) so I could fully understand how ours was performing.

right i may of been a little sharp with my comment but , after testing the original OS 9 coder , ( and finding it wanting in the quality department ) I was a little dismayed to find the OS X encoder to be of the same quality....

So , you say that you need to do a lot of testing to set up your encoder settings... You dont mention this in the manual do you... and the interface points the user in the direction of " set and forget "

I strongly suggest you re-write the manual giving ( as you did above ) a very good example of the methods that you employ to achieve a good encoding.

Dont get me wrong , I agree my original comment was a little strong , but you need to give the user more details on the application.
GeezerButtz.

Thanks for the feedback. We actually do test the encoder against the 'preset-and-go' templates. The problem is, there is such a wide variety of source material out there, that it is difficult to design presets that accomodate everything. That is the fundamental premise we work from.

Right now I am doing some some tests on a 30min concert of an independent singer I shot with MiniDV and edited with iMovie. Since we are resampling the audio I wanted to make sure it was staying in sync.
Nevertheless, the source is 29.97i and pretty shakey. I was using one of our presets, and it didn't do a bad job off the get go, but I'm on my fourth pass now. My fourth pass is 30MB smaller than the previous one, but as I review it in the analyzer, I'm thinking that I liked the third one better.

One thing that it is unbelievably difficult for someone like me to do, is to anticipate how you are going to use the product. The reason I like to hang around on these boards (don't always have time) is because the VCD SVCD folks have a tendency to fully 'stress-test' things.

When I set out to make this encoder I wanted to make something that would go beyond what was available on Windows. For instance, the Speed vs. Quality slider represents about 10 encoder variables, about half of which are not available or exposed as options in any other encoder (to my knowledge). We also can do both 'constant Q' and a innovative variation of 'constant Q' which is bandlimited Q, wherein you can set both the max and min Q. ConstantQ would be where max and min Q are identical. Also, some very interesting possibilities by exploring our Quant Matrix presets.

Nevertheless, it has proven to be somewhat difficult to provide a user experience which facilitates the 1-button approach. Our templates are primarily guidelines so that the key encoder parameters are set correctly for the desired profile (VCD,SVCD, DVD, etc.). And the sliders are exposed so that you will experiement with them. And finally, the bitrate analysis tools, esp. the way it is plugged right into the progress dialog box, is so you can make reasoned judgements about how your selections are affecting the compression, without having to wait until the entire job is done. I use Pause & Review all the time, because everyone gets nervous if they're running an overnight encode.

I love to see people hammer on MegaPEG on the boards because I go right to the code and make changes. For instance, after the guy on this thread complained about the filtering, I went into the presets and backed it off some. The reason the filtering is set aggressively is so that if at all possible, you can use the fastest algorithms.

Generally, complaints are useful for improving the product, and I take them as that.

Gen

[kiyookasan]

Hi Gen

Tosa,

Thanks for the remarks. In the long run, my belief is that our encoder is going to attract a certain kind of person who likes to have a lot of control over the encoding process in exchange for more of a learning curve. Naturally, we want to make the introduction as enjoyable as possible.

It is true for me that the more times I compress and review, the more I learn about how to improve the quality. I also learn alot by comparing different encoders with similar settings. To that end, I say, we all have nothing to lose by having a wide variety of choices available.

BTW, I want to make sure that our QuickTime plug-in works with your MPEG->QuickTime converter.

Gen