Possibly giving up Sony SVHS deck in exchange for JVC 9911

[lordsmurf]

Labels are peeling off. The things whirs and whizzes forever while trying to eject a tape (this is brand new, mind you) and I find myself crossing my fingers each time I use it, muttering under breath, "please don't break, please don't break." It really is a cheaply made product,

This is so overdramatic it stinks like a high school play.

Inferior to sold-steel professional equipment from a decade ago? Sure, the JVC 9911 is not a top of the line PROFESSIONAL deck. Those cost well into the $1000's (USD).

Is it built like the $25 Symphonic from Best Buy? Hell no. You make it sound like a Fisher Price toy. That's ridiculous.

The 9911 is a great machine. It does many things. With the exception of the most anal perfectionist (or typical high-end professional), this machine will seem like magic to all who use it.

It is not built as well as slightly older production lines (9600,9800), but that's no reason to think it will fall apart after 2 uses, or some other such nonsense. The sole reason for this is because plastic is used in place of some metals. Most of the important parts are still metal. It's fine.

This thread is starting to get as stupid as some of those "CMC is great" or "Panasonic is best" threads. Puh-lease. If we're going to complain about products, or praise products, let's try to limit the reasoning to things that actually exist.

[swiego]

Oh please. You are reacting like I just made a joke about your mom! Yikes!

No, it's not the end of the world. But you know what? It *is* cheaply made. This is a $600 retail product. I'm not comparing it to $2000 products from ten years ago. I am comparing it to my $100 tape deck, my $60 DVD player, and my $300 receiver, all of which appear better built than it. While I'm at it, my scanner, computer monitor, printer and 27" TV all seem better built than the JVC, and they cost less, too!

Last night I made the mistake of attaching a fairly heavy and solid S-Video cord (AR Master Series off eBay) to the JVC jack and the rear jacks couldn't support the weight of the heavy cord and now are starting to wiggle. This is the sort of thing you notice, and scratch your head over. I wouldn't be so irked if it weren't for the fact that I was plugging the other end of that cable into a jack on a $300 27" TV from five years ago with a much more secure jack that does not flex at all.

Perhaps you just hold JVC to a lower standard for build quality than everything else... that is your call. I hold it to the same standard as all my other electronic devices, and in the case of the JVC it is pretty clear that I am paying for the electronics and nothing more. That's fine with me, that's my choice and I made it. From what I have heard about the recent JVC models from many places, my concerns are not unfounded either; this is a device that by many accounts is almost engineered to fail shortly after warranty. I used to have a Sony DVD player with the same reputation and this thing gives me the same vibes.

I don't expect this thing to act like the Nakamichi Dragon and Sony EV-S7000 sitting next to it, but it is a little disturbing how, in the VHS universe, the pinnacle of output quality comes in such cheap packaging. In every other format (cassette, R2R, CD, SACD, LP, DVDA, DVD, MD, 8mm, Hi8, DV) the pinnacle of output quality generally was available in a device that reasonably could be expected to last a decade or longer.

Or, is the 9800 and 9600 really that much better than the 9911 in this area? If so I can understand why a used 9800 costs about the same as a new 9911.

I'm mainly hoping for the 9911U to last long enough (about a year?) for me to digitize everything and store it away.

[gshelley61]

The reason consumer VHS machines have dropped in build quality (and price) over the years is demand. There simply is not enough demand for VHS machines anymore to build them like battleships and then charge very little for them. The sturdier units from five and ten years ago were way more than $600 list, too. The 9911 is perfectly fine for a new $400 street price machine considering how few of them are probably sold.

The fact is, nearly all consumer electronics these days are built for lightweight, limited use because it is cheaper to buy new stuff than it is to repair it. The items with the most consumer demand, like DVD recorders right now, drop the fastest in price.

[davideck]

I still think you're seeing things that do not exist, and I don't think your understanding of the tech is correct either. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

lordsmurf - Well...not quite.

I stand by the claims that I have made on this forum.
You have asked me for evidence, and I have promptly replied.

I have asked you several times to justify the claims that you have directed at me.

Your silence speaks volumes about how uninformed and ludicrous some of your pronouncements are; on that, we do indeed appear to agree.

Still no reply?

A trail that lasts for only several frames is noticeable.

When you have 30 frames per second .... no way. You're imagining a problem that does not exist. "Seeing" a couple frames worth of overlap would mean you have unique eyeballs that no other human in history has ever had, namely that you can perceive all 30 frames.

To say you can discern a couple of frames overlapping/trailing is quite honestly ridiculous.

lordsmurf -

Suppose you display a 50-50 mix of the current frame with the previous frame.
That would be equivalent to a one frame trail. Are you claiming that you would not notice the difference between this 50-50 mix and the current frame itself?

Deinterlacing is another good example. It is necessary because the temporal displacement between adjacent fields is enough to be visible. Objects can move significantly across the screen from field to field. Viewing both fields simultaneously (without proper deinterlacing) is equivalent to a one field trail; 1/60 of a second. Even that is visible. Are you claiming otherwise?

[VideoTechMan]

I have the same Sony you do and my advice is DO NOT GET RID OF IT!!!! If you can be in a position to afford the JVC as well...then add that but don't sell the Sony! That machine is a workhorse and DAMN reliable!

Thanks for the reply Scooter...ive decided to keep the R1000 and not sell it. The unit hasnt had any heavy use since ive had it, so its still in great shape. I use my tape rewinders to save the wear on the unit also so just to use it for playing and recording. Plus, I do like the picture quality that it offers on some of my tapes that were recorded 6 years ago and beyond. Im sure sometime soon I can look into the JVC, but until then I will stick with what I have.

Besides, I love the brilliantly lit LCD display panel it has....something you wont find on too many other units, and having 3 SVHS inputs as well. Besides, I want to reduce the number of VHS machines I have since once I have everything converted to DVD, I wont have much use for VHS anymore anyway, but I will keep my decks around.

VTM

[davideck]

Human eyes only usually see about 10-20fps. The only reason tv even looks good to us is because our species is genetically stupid when it comes to vision.

Speak for yourself. Normal humans can perceive flicker up to around 50 Hz.
Interlaced scanning was invented to avoid the annoying flicker at 30 Hz...

[racerxnet]

Don't argue with Smurf. He has the upper hand on this with his experience on ATI cards and the like. For instance, because he runs his web site, and is a moderator, none can claim otherwise to his devine experiences. His inability to use or have a Tektronix scope voids any hardcore test data. As for programming in C C++ .net or VB, he has no experience. In electronics its purchase and connect. For all the money he spends on his junk, I wonder if he could have bouoght a professional sytem to start with.


Of course all the PRO's are using the ATI stuff??? Right Smurf.

Now don't get your panties in a bunch!!

[fmctm1sw]

Well, here's hoping this thread doesn't break down into an all out flame war. First, yes Lordsmurf can seem a little "overbearing" at times. But really, he'll be the first to tell you that the "pros" are NOT using ATI video cards. I agree with what was said earlier. You're not going to find VCRs built like tanks any more. Stuff these days is built cheap and considering VCRs are on the decline, who is going to pay $600 for one anymore (except for psychos like us)? To get back to topic, I'll say that I found a Victor VX-200 here in Japan. It is nearly identical to the JVC 9600/9800 series in the US. My Toshiba SB-88 SVHS VCR (Japanese market) puts out damn near as good a picture as it. Like was already said. Hang on to what you have until you try both. Then decide.

[gshelley61]

Pro gear will cost you 5x to 20x what consumer equipment costs, even used. Besides that, it is large and heavy, so for the vast majority of video hobbyists is inappropriate for their purposes. For those in the video conversion business, acquiring some pro machines may make sense for longevity reasons, but not necessarily for image quality. Some consumer and prosumer units do a better job in that department than some professional gear does, believe it or not.

[fmctm1sw]

Pro gear will cost you 5x to 20x what consumer equipment costs, even used. Besides that, it is large and heavy, so for the vast majority of video hobbyists is inappropriate for their purposes. For those in the video conversion business, acquiring some pro machines may make sense for longevity reasons, but not necessarily for image quality. Some consumer and prosumer units do a better job in that department than some professional gear does, believe it or not.

What have you decided on? I saw a bunch of your stuff on ebay a while back...

[nixie]

A filter that uses information from more than one frame is by definition a temporal filter. I am not talking about harsh temporal control.

If you recirculate the data in a single frame buffer with an input source, you can average across as many frames as you like. 90% buffer and 10% input will hold data from 10 frames. 99% buffer and 1 % input will hold data from 100 frames. All with a single frame buffer.

What you say is correct. A buffer that holds only a single frame can make trails as harsh as you want. The data in that single-frame buffer can be altered every frame to make trails intentionally if you wanted to. You simply mix in part of the current frame to the last one which is still in the frame buffer and keep updating like that. A similar thing can be said for recursive filtering techniques. I've tinkered with recursive filters with only a frame worth of memory and I can put harsh trails all over the place.

Some people just aren't familiar with the concept of recirculation or recursive filtering.

[gshelley61]

Pro gear will cost you 5x to 20x what consumer equipment costs, even used. Besides that, it is large and heavy, so for the vast majority of video hobbyists is inappropriate for their purposes. For those in the video conversion business, acquiring some pro machines may make sense for longevity reasons, but not necessarily for image quality. Some consumer and prosumer units do a better job in that department than some professional gear does, believe it or not.

What have you decided on? I saw a bunch of your stuff on ebay a while back...

Oh, I'm always buying, testing and re-selling a little bit of gear over there. Kind of a hobby (that helps pay for some of the stuff I have wound up keeping for my own setup) :P

Anyway, I still haven't found a s-vhs machine that outperforms some of the top JVC units I've looked at. I even had an awesome pro broadcast/editing Panny AG-7750 with a built in proc amp and full frame TBC with less than 200 hours on it (it was in pristine condition)... my SR-W5U has a better picture. The JVC 9000 series machines are hard to beat for VHS playback.

[davideck]

Thanks for your posts, racerxnet and nixie.

I've been focusing on the TBC/DNR functionality of my 7600 and 9600 JVC VCRs this evening.

It is clear to me that the DNR does a good job at reducing the noise in still objects, but is much less effective at removing the noise in moving objects. Moving objects are therefore noisier than still objects. This is what you would expect from an adaptive temporal filter.

Secondly, my older 6800 JVC machine plays back pictures with less noise and higher detail than my 7600 / 9600 units with their DNR/TBC turned off.

As a result, this is what I notice (for a given tape);

The Picture with the most noise overall; 7600/9600 with TBC/DNR off.
The Picture with the lowest noise in still objects; 7600/9600 with TBC/DNR on.
The Picture with the lowest noise in moving objects; 6800

The Picture with the most detail; 6800

The "Best" picture overall? I think that is personal preference. That is what this thread has been about.

I prefer a uniform distribution of noise throughout the entire picture to a picture where still objects are less noisy and moving objects are more noisy. The same object can change from noisy to clean to noisy as it moves, then stops, then moves again. This artifact is more noticeable and more objectionable to me than noise that is uniform throughout all objects. My TBC-3000 / Hauppauge PVR-250 path tends to reduce this uniform noise during capture anyway.

For low noise source tapes (like my SVHS home videos), the DNR function makes little or no difference at all. Under these conditions, the lower noise level and higher detail of my 6800 clearly outperforms my 7600 / 9600.

For these reasons, I most often prefer the captures from my 6800.

[nixie]

I've used recursive noise reducers with a single frame of memory and they can produce noticable smearing for certain types of video. For example, if you are watching a concert with a black background, you can see a shiny trumpet smear across the black background. I'd rather have the noise reduction turned down or off in this situation, as the artifacts to me appear worse than the original noise. If I'm watching a uniformly lit scene, then the smearing isn't noticeable. I can turn up the recursive noise reduction without noticing the smearing artifact and get rid of noise graininess that would have been noticed.

[pfh]

Reading thru this thread we all should agree that this stuff is subjective in nature.

On the other hand I'm glad there are those of you willing to sacrifice time and $ and also willing to give opinions or host a website since the publishers are wimps (read lordsmurf). Hats off to you.

For what it's worth- I'm very satisfied with my refurb purchase of a JVC 9911 ~$230. A great buy IMO. Perhaps you'd be wise to hang on to the Sony and find a 9911 for ~$250. When the Sony craps out you'll still have the JVC. As far as the plastic and magnet stuff- ???? PLEASE! Since when does that mean cheap? Didn't we give up on the "made in Japan" way of thinking in the '70s?

[FulciLives]

Didn't we give up on the "made in Japan" way of thinking in the '70s?

Acutally ... no !!! :P

I will not use any DVD blank media unless it says MADE IN JAPAN

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Marvingj]

I personally have a Mitsub. U-82 built like a tank, good picture & detail. I have a JVC 8000 built like a tank..It has the Best clarity & detail than the newer model. But no TBC. I also have aSony 1000 Built very well but does not have the solid-ness of the other two. I subscribed that any make or model that is not aleast 10 -15 years old will have inferior parts due to the public demand. Back it 80's public demand more quality from VHS & Beta. But you paid for it 800-2000 easy. We will see the same thing once the DVD recorder go as far as VHS production. But JVC is still the best VCR, whether old model or Modern... THEY INVENTED THE VHS VCR>>>>REMEMBER!!!!

[kenmasters83]

i use my jvc hrs-5911U deck sometimes but not as much as i do now.. since i bought my dvd recorder i havent even touched the vcr..

i look at this way the cheapest you can find FUJI svhs tapes is around 3 bucks a pop.

and the best regular jvc EHG tapes for around one dollar a piece.

while DVD media can be had around 27 cennts a piece..

price is a huge deciding factor for me.. i believe that 359.00 would be best spent on something more beneficial.....like a dvd recorder!!

[pfh]

Didn't we give up on the "made in Japan" way of thinking in the '70s?

Acutally ... no !!! :P

I will not use any DVD blank media unless it says MADE IN JAPAN

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

hmmm...yeah I sorta meant that- guess I'm showing my age. They did tend to reverse the thinking now didn't they (the Japanese).

[lordsmurf]

i use my jvc hrs-5911U deck sometimes but not as much as i do now.. since i bought my dvd recorder i havent even touched the vcr..

i look at this way the cheapest you can find FUJI svhs tapes is around 3 bucks a pop.

and the best regular jvc EHG tapes for around one dollar a piece.

while DVD media can be had around 27 cennts a piece..

price is a huge deciding factor for me.. i believe that 359.00 would be best spent on something more beneficial.....like a dvd recorder!!

Statements like this don't apply to converting VHS to DVD.

[BJ_M]

The Sony SLV-R1000 (SVO-2000) are also cheaply made and full of plastic parts. Your best bet if you want a rugged, precision tape transport is to keep your eyes open for an older high end consumer machine, or a professional broadcast unit (they are very large and heavy, though)

I had a Panasonic AG-7750 on hand for a short while, and it was awesome in the build quality department. Like a friggin' tank. 50 lbs. and huge.

i have a SLV-R1000 and they ARE a high end consumer machine .. they are not built like the industrial panasonics , but it has sure stood up to my abuse and still works great .. they look good also .. I have to agree with you on the older model consumer machines - a lot of those were built really well - but the belts always dry out and stretch and the develop a lot of wow and flutter (or dont work) -- i have a beast of a top of the line NEC still packed away (which also doesnt have macrovision, but does have a TBC) ..
no idea what to do w/ it even (if i can even find it)

[mikel]

VideoTechMan,

Definitely hang on to the Sony.
I have both a JVC 9900 & a SLV-R1000.
If you have a LOT of tapes to convert (as I do), you may discover
(as I have ) that some tapes play better on the JVC and some
quite a bit better on the R1000.
I've had audio & vertical jitter issues that were solved by
switching to the older Sony.
Having a great, alternate source deck is a good thing.