Several questions re: how to capture

[swiego]

I have a slew of VHS, SVHS, 8mm and Hi8 tapes that I want to capture digitally for archival purposes. Most are precious to me, and I'd imagine that's a common refrain around here I tend to be methodical, slow, and patient, and I prefer to do things once without worrying later whether I could have done it better.

For playback of the tapes, I have a JVC 9911U (VHS/SVHS) and a Sony EV5000. I currently have a fairly speedy PC (P4-2.8) and can throw about half a terabyte of empty disk space for buffering video or audio capture.

I'm looking to capture, archive some lesser stuff to DVD, and keep other material online with minimal loss (digital negatives, so to speak) for when those HD-DVD or Bluray recorders become affordable in the year 2525. Disk space isn't too much of an issue for me.

Lastly I am digitizing some cassette tapes, reels and vinyl, and to this end am planning to pick up an E-Mu 1212m for recording duties. It's an aside, but I will have that sound card in my PC.

Questions:

1. Any recommendation for a capture card in the $200 to $400 range that gives me the best possible analog-to-digital conversion and best synergy (signal cleanup, whatever) with VHS/SVHS/8mm? Presumably for best possible results I'd be capturing uncompressed and encoding later in software, so I don't think I need a hardware encoder; correct me if I'm wrong, though!

2. From searching I think I have a pretty good idea of how to encode and what to use. I won't bother ya'll by asking "what's the best encoding software" but I would like a yea / nay confirmation on my assumption that it is better to use the top software video processors & encoders rather than a hardware encoder, if image quality is the *only* consideration. I don't mind encoding processes that stretch into the days... like I said, I'm patient

3. One thing that's not clear to me (as a newbie) is whether I can take advantage of my investment in the 1212m recording sound card for capturing sound alongside video through the video capture card. Another thing I'm unclear about: can I capture sound at higher bit depths and sampling rates (24/96), if I wish to for my "digital negative", and still be able to transform it to regular 'ol DVD? And, since AFAIK the DVD spec allows for 24/96 PCM playback, is there software that allows me to encode material accordingly onto a DVD? Note, I'm *not* talking about DVD-A, but DVD-V with embedded 24/96 tracks. Help here would be appreciated.

I really apologize for the inane / newbie questions! I've tried to do some homework (especially on the issue of picking playback devices) but the capture process is still a little gray to me. Help appreciated....

[zoobie]

First off, I can't answer any of your questions.

What I wanted to say is that when we first get into this stuff, we all want high-end like you have. Most of us quickly realize that even the low-end stuff is several hundreds if not thousands of $. I won't even mention high-end prices because they are rediculous.

My main point is if your videos are precious to you, I'd take them to a professional studio and have whatever you want done to them on high-end equipment.

This way, instead of investing in complicated high-end equipment which depreciates a lot, you could probably have what you wanted done for a couple of hundred bucks.

See what I mean?

[swiego]

Definitely understood... clearly. I guess I should clarify a few things

One is that I'm pretty good at scrounging around. The "high-end" equipment I have so far was picked up very cheap by waiting patiently for well over a year. Honestly, the investment has not been that huge, financially speaking. It's more a matter of committing the time to the search, and doing so because you are genuinely enthusiastic about such things. Some people spend time and money on jewelry, fine wrist watches, or very elegant furniture. I don't. I spend time and money on lightly used audio/video equipment of vintage formats: analog compact cassette, DCC, VHS and 8mm for example

And the second thing is that this is a hobby as much as it is a project. That's why I'm okay with being patient, and that's also why I will not send these tapes to someone else for capture + archival. I'm sure I could, but I love doing this stuff. I have a boatload of experience doing it on the audio side. I'm just new to the video piece.

Lastly I wouldn't want anyone to think that I regard my approach as special in any way given the investment in the playback equipment. It's just a hobby. Like I said, I totally accept that others will make unreasonable investments in their hobbies, just as I am making unreasonable investments in this one. I'm not made of money, though, so I still want to shore up the audio/video capture hardware within a $400-ish budget.

[FulciLives]

1. Any recommendation for a capture card in the $200 to $400 range that gives me the best possible analog-to-digital conversion and best synergy (signal cleanup, whatever) with VHS/SVHS/8mm? Presumably for best possible results I'd be capturing uncompressed and encoding later in software, so I don't think I need a hardware encoder; correct me if I'm wrong, though!

The AverMedia DVD EZMaker is probably one of the best. It uses the Philips chipset which is very good and captures NTSC at 704x480 (not sure what is the proper PAL resolution to use). Please note I did have trouble with my AverMedia DVD EZMaker but very few have and I chock mine up to just not liking my particular computer setup ... unfortunately these things happen. One day I plan on deleting the HDD and re-installing WinXP fresh and trying again. Like I said very few have had trouble with this card. It is simply one of the best if not the best for uncompressed AVI capture. I suggest you use the HuffyUV codec and use 16-bit 48k 2 channel stereo audio. The capture application iuVCR seems to work best. This capture card is only about $50.00 but don't let that fool you ... it's a great capture card!

Another option might be the Canopus ADVC-100 (or the newer ADVC-110) but this has advantages and disadvantages. It captures in DV video format. This is good if you need to do a lot of editing but DV video uses a 4:1:1 color sampling rate whereas capture with something like the aforementioned AverMedia DVD EZMaker can do 4:2:2 which is considered much better. The big advantage here is that DV make it very easy to do extensive editing and perhaps most importantly you will never (well very nearly never) have A/V sync issues which can pop up in a card like the AverMedia DVD EZMaker. In short the only real disadvantage is the 4:1:1 color sampling that DV uses for NTSC video (I think PAL is 4:2:2 though). Some say this is a big deal while other people say it is not. There are even filters (one for VirtualDub and one for AviSynth) that attempt to "correct" for this. Definately look into using those if you decide on the Canopus ADVC-100/110 and use NTSC video.

As for myself I use the AverMedia AverTV Stereo ... an old capture card no longer made that uses a BT based chipset. This has worked wonders for me (and my new computer likes it still) but the AverMedia DVD EZMaker uses the newer Philips chipset which is a bit better (mostly a slightly sharper image with less "dot crawl").

I guess I should mention that many people really like the ATI capture cards, specifically the ATI ALL-IN-WONDER cards (or ATI AIW). These can do uncompressed AVI (or using a codec like HuffyUV) but also can do MPEG capture using hardware (part hardware / part software). So you might want to look into one of these as well. A good site with info about capture (with a bias towards ATI AIW cards) is the DIGITAL FAQ website.

2. From searching I think I have a pretty good idea of how to encode and what to use. I won't bother ya'll by asking "what's the best encoding software" but I would like a yea / nay confirmation on my assumption that it is better to use the top software video processors & encoders rather than a hardware encoder, if image quality is the *only* consideration. I don't mind encoding processes that stretch into the days... like I said, I'm patient

I prefer Cinema Craft Encoder aka CCE BASIC but everyone here has a favorite. Some think ProCoder is better than CCE. I don't think too many will say TMPGEnc Plus is better but it can be "easier" to use. Some swear by the MainConcept MPEG encoder but some think it is too "soft" looking but then again some think CCE looks too "grainy". As I said I prefer CCE because it is fast and most importantly it uses the YUV/YUY2 colorspace which is the same colorspace your capture will be in. Not changing colorspace makes things MUCH easier IMHO. For instance if you use VirtualDub and/or TMPGEnc Plus then you are using the RGB colorspace and have to change colorspace and that can cause "issues". Please note that CCE really requires that you learn AviSynth for maximal usage. TMPGEnc Plus and/or MainConcept MPEG encoder can pretty much be used without AviSynth (though AviSynth works with both). I know little about ProCoder but I think it too can work with AviSynth though how "needed" that really is I don't know.

However, no matter which one you go with, consider very strongly in learning AviSynth since it allows you to use a lot of powerfull video tools such as "video noise" filters etc.

3. One thing that's not clear to me (as a newbie) is whether I can take advantage of my investment in the 1212m recording sound card for capturing sound alongside video through the video capture card. Another thing I'm unclear about: can I capture sound at higher bit depths and sampling rates (24/96), if I wish to for my "digital negative", and still be able to transform it to regular 'ol DVD? And, since AFAIK the DVD spec allows for 24/96 PCM playback, is there software that allows me to encode material accordingly onto a DVD? Note, I'm *not* talking about DVD-A, but DVD-V with embedded 24/96 tracks. Help here would be appreciated.

Sorry but I have no idea what DVD-V is all about. As far as I know a standard DVD can have 16-bit 48k Stereo PCM WAV audio or AC-3 audio which can be 1.0 or 2.0 or 5.1 etc. and of course there is DTS but try finding an affordable DTS encoder hehehe

Sounds like most of what you will be capturing will be 2 channel stereo audio so if you REALLY want the best just use 16-bit 48k PCM WAV audio on the DVD. However that will eat up a lot of space so most of us use AC-3 instead with 256kbps considered "optimal" for 2 channel stereo/mono audio. Even if you MAX the AC-3 bitrate to 448kbps that is still only about 1/3 the space that PCM WAV uses (which is about 1536kbps).

Remember the higher the audio bitrate the more space that is taken up on the DVD disc. This is a big concern if you plan to put much more than 65 minutes on a DVD disc because the more space that is taken up by the audio the less space for the video. Optimal video bitrate can only be achieved when using PCM WAV audio when you put about 65 minutes (or less) per DVD.

Another concern with PCM WAV audio is that because the bitrate of the audio is so high you should limit your video to a MAX of 7500kbps but you can easily go as high as 8000kbps when you use AC-3 audio (even at the max bitrate of 448kbps). Technically you can use PCM and 8000kbps video but that puts you SO close to the upper limit of the DVD bitrate that we have found that 7500kbps is really the best "safe" max for the video when using PCM WAV audio. Of course chances are any difference between using 7500kbps and 8000kbps for the video will likely make no noticeable difference.

Hope I haven't confused you any

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

*** EDIT ***
You very well might want to get a Full Frame TBC but they can be expensive. The only 2 "cheap" solutions are:

1.) DataVideo TBC-1000 (about $300)
2.) AVT-8710 (about $250)

This would be in your price range though if you go with the AverMedia DVD EZMaker.

*** ANOTHER EDIT ***
One last thing that I can think of for now ... there is a mostly excellent capture guide over at the doom9 website. However these days most AVI type capture cards (for which this guide is geared) will be using iuVCR instead of VirtualDub. You can use VirtualVCR but I find that the sync is never 100% perfect (at least for me ... other people swear by it).

[edDV]

I wouldn't worry at all about 4:1:1 capture from VHS sources. VHS uses the color under recording technique* resulting in very low sub 1 MHz chroma bandwidth in I&Q (UV). 4:1:1 samples chroma at 13.5/4 = 3.375MHz putting Nyquist bandwidth below 1.7MHz which is fine even for a high quality NTSC source let alone VHS.

PAL DV is sampled using the same 4:2:0 scheme as used with DVD. The choma bandwith issues are similar to NTSC.

*the 3.58MHz color subcarrier and its sidebands are heterodyned down to just 629KHz for VHS recording and then upconverted back to 3.58MHz for playback.

[FulciLives]

BTW I wanted to point to this other post I made in another thread which details how I achieve A/V synce using my BT based PCI capture card. You will mostly likely encounter such "issues" if you go with a non DV capture route such as the aforementioned AverMedia DVD EZMaker.

Here is a link to that thread:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=260710

Look at my second post in that thread.

And yes it does sound worse than what it really is so don't worry

- John 'FulciLives" Coleman

[swiego]

FulciLives & edDV - thank you for your help! This newbie feels very welcome...

Thanks for the tips on the capture card choice. I have heard good things about the ATI HD capture card being a good choice, even for non-HD capturing, with a decent bit of shelf life. It doesn't seem to get discussed much here, any feedback? It's spoken well of over on avsforums.

Right now I'm leaning toward the ADVC1xx series. It sounds as though the ADVC3xx series is not going to give me anything I already have from my JVC VCR, and I get the impression that standalone full-frame TBC is one of those "get it if you discover, during capture, that you need it" deals. Does that sound accurate?

I'm still a little hazy on audio capture. Basically, I want to get the highest fidelity audio I can. I want to try capturing audio at 24/96, and do so using dedicated audio cards like the E-Mu 1212m that presumably have much better AD stages (for audio) than what you'd get on a Canopus ADVC1xx series card. I can always downsample to 16-bit 48kHZ if I want to burn a DVD, but it would be nice to have the audio available at the higher bit depth and sampling rate. Is this possible? Do AVI or MPEG formats accommodate 24/96 audio? I know that I can record a 24/96 PCM bitstream to wav, easily enough, but how to marry it up with video coming from a standard capture card? Has anyone done this?

Thanks for the help, I'm ploughing through posts and guides and getting very comfortable with my next steps. (Probably a Canopus card, and a lot of software evaluations!)

---

Edit: another thing I'm unclear about: DV is a "lossy" format, oui?

[edDV]

FulciLives & edDV - thank you for your help! This newbie feels very welcome...

Thanks for the tips on the capture card choice. I have heard good things about the ATI HD capture card being a good choice, even for non-HD capturing, with a decent bit of shelf life. It doesn't seem to get discussed much here, any feedback? It's spoken well of over on avsforums.

Right now I'm leaning toward the ADVC1xx series. It sounds as though the ADVC3xx series is not going to give me anything I already have from my JVC VCR, and I get the impression that standalone full-frame TBC is one of those "get it if you discover, during capture, that you need it" deals. Does that sound accurate?

I'm still a little hazy on audio capture. Basically, I want to get the highest fidelity audio I can. I want to try capturing audio at 24/96, and do so using dedicated audio cards like the E-Mu 1212m that presumably have much better AD stages (for audio) than what you'd get on a Canopus ADVC1xx series card. I can always downsample to 16-bit 48kHZ if I want to burn a DVD, but it would be nice to have the audio available at the higher bit depth and sampling rate. Is this possible? Do AVI or MPEG formats accommodate 24/96 audio? I know that I can record a 24/96 PCM bitstream to wav, easily enough, but how to marry it up with video coming from a standard capture card? Has anyone done this?

Thanks for the help, I'm ploughing through posts and guides and getting very comfortable with my next steps. (Probably a Canopus card, and a lot of software evaluations!)

---

Edit: another thing I'm unclear about: DV is a "lossy" format, oui?

I capture with the Canopus ADVC-100 and am happy. The TBC/Proc amp functions would be very nice to have for correction of poorly recorded tapes (i.e. luma-chroma levels, noise, hue, etc.). You want to control these before A/D for best quality. I wish I had the ADVC-300 for VHS captures.

For VHS sources, I don't see the benefit of higher than 16bit/48KHz sampling. Maybe you have some ideas there.

There is a severe disadvantage to using a separate audio capture card and that is loss of audio sync. The ADVC is very good about maintaining audio sync over long captures. I often capture an entire 6HR EP tape and edit it later in the digital domain. The ADVC will keep audio in sync.

One possibility is recording audio through both the ADVC and fancy audio card at the same time and matching the tracks later during editing.


"Do AVI or MPEG formats accommodate 24/96 audio? "

DVD-Audio format does. For DVD-Video you would mix down to either PCM (up to 8 tracks) or AC-3 (see specs to left under DVD).


"Edit: another thing I'm unclear about: DV is a "lossy" format, oui?"

DV is 5x compressed at the source. Once in DV format, there is no loss during copy or editing unless a filter or some other process is applied. It is an excellent general editing format. Higher end broadcast equipment (e.g. Digital Betacam) use a very light 2x compression and only compress within fields maintaining 100% temporal resolution.

[FulciLives]

I have heard good things about the ATI HD capture card being a good choice, even for non-HD capturing, with a decent bit of shelf life. It doesn't seem to get discussed much here, any feedback? It's spoken well of over on avsforums.

When this first came out the initial user feedback was dreadful to say the least but perhaps by now there have been updated drivers etc. that make it actually work like it should. I haven't been "keeping up" with the "news" on this one.

Right now I'm leaning toward the ADVC1xx series. It sounds as though the ADVC3xx series is not going to give me anything I already have from my JVC VCR, and I get the impression that standalone full-frame TBC is one of those "get it if you discover, during capture, that you need it" deals. Does that sound accurate?

Well the ADVC-300 has a built-in TBC but it is only a line TBC and your JVC S-VHS VCR already has a line TBC built-in so in my opinion you really don't need the ADVC-300 but then again ... like edDV says, the ADVC-300 does have other features not found on the ADVC-100 but still, in my opinion, it is not "needed".

As for a Full Frame TBC ... yes this is a good thing to have because sometimes it is needed, even with the line TBC you have built-in to the JVC S-VHS VCR but often you do not really "need" a Full Frame TBC to capture.

I'm still a little hazy on audio capture. Basically, I want to get the highest fidelity audio I can. I want to try capturing audio at 24/96, and do so using dedicated audio cards like the E-Mu 1212m that presumably have much better AD stages (for audio) than what you'd get on a Canopus ADVC1xx series card. I can always downsample to 16-bit 48kHZ if I want to burn a DVD, but it would be nice to have the audio available at the higher bit depth and sampling rate. Is this possible? Do AVI or MPEG formats accommodate 24/96 audio? I know that I can record a 24/96 PCM bitstream to wav, easily enough, but how to marry it up with video coming from a standard capture card? Has anyone done this?

I think you are being way overly "anal" here plus as edDV pointed out, one of the whole reasons to use the ADVC-100 is for the excellent A/V sync that this device is capable of. If you really want to do the audio seperately then you might as well just get the AverMedia DVD EZMaker where you are using your soundcard to do the audio portion of the capture.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

...

Right now I'm leaning toward the ADVC1xx series. It sounds as though the ADVC3xx series is not going to give me anything I already have from my JVC VCR, and I get the impression that standalone full-frame TBC is one of those "get it if you discover, during capture, that you need it" deals. Does that sound accurate?

Well the ADVC-300 has a built-in TBC but it is only a line TBC and your JVC S-VHS VCR already has a line TBC built-in so in my opinion you really don't need the ADVC-300 but then again ... like edDV says, the ADVC-300 does have other features not found on the ADVC-100 but still, in my opinion, it is not "needed".

As for a Full Frame TBC ... yes this is a good thing to have because sometimes it is needed, even with the line TBC you have built-in to the JVC S-VHS VCR but often you do not really "need" a Full Frame TBC to capture.
...
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

True the ADVC-300 is a single line TBC, also very useful are the Proc-Amp controls for levels, etc.

Alternative full frame TBC/ProcAmp systems may do this better but you are back to the capture audio-sync issues. The ADVC-300 is a nice all in one solution if one can afford it.

RE: ATI-HDTV Wonder

HDTV is a much bigger issue. But that card is probably far from optimal for S-Video capture. Better to look at the All-in-Wonder line.

[swiego]

Thanks for the input. Some of these tapes are original (1st gen) live recordings of recitals captured using some very high quality recording equipment. In these cases, I'm really more concerned about the audio than anything else... capturing the audio for simple stereo playback on a dedicated two-channel rig. I have no problem hearing differences between audio recording cards, and from what I have heard, the SVHS format does an incredibly good job of capturing audio. (I'm amazed at what came through on these tapes; video was shoddy but audio is beautiful.) So, I'm hoping to capture the audio as best I can, but hopefully in a way that I can sync it to the less-important but still interesting video component. If I can't, it's not a big deal, I can always capture AV, then do a second audio-only capture through a more dedicated recording card.

[edDV]

I'd just capture DV (with 48KHz stereo) and audio card to a separate file all in one pass. Then you can multi-track edit later. Sony Vegas is an excellent program for this. Also Audition with Premiere.

SVHS HiFi audio tracks are good but could still be improved with filters. I'm sure there are filters designed specifically to enhance VHS HiFi. If you find some let us know. I recorded several live over FM radio concerts to SVHS HiFi tracks.

[FulciLives]

I'd just capture DV (with 48KHz stereo) and audio card to a separate file all in one pass. Then you can multi-track edit later. Sony Vegas is an excellent program for this. Also Audition with Premiere.

If you ask me ... this will be one hell of a challenge i.e., capture video with the Canopus ADVC-100 but capture audio through a sound card.

The challenge will be trying to get it to sync up. I simply don't think it will be remotely possible to do 100%

So if you feel you MUST do this then try the AverMedia DVD EZMaker since that capture card is MADE to be used with your sound card and you can use a program that will keep the video synced with the audio.

The chance of it syncing up will be much better although, in the end, you will have to "downsample" to 16-bit 48k Stereo anyways for the final DVD so is it even worth all the trouble and loss-of-sync possibility? Clearly I think not.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
When I say the AverMedia DVD EZMaker I am talking about the "standard" PCI version. I just wanted to make that clear since I think there is more than one version.

[BJ_M]

Thanks for the input. Some of these tapes are original (1st gen) live recordings of recitals captured using some very high quality recording equipment. In these cases, I'm really more concerned about the audio than anything else... capturing the audio for simple stereo playback on a dedicated two-channel rig. I have no problem hearing differences between audio recording cards, and from what I have heard, the SVHS format does an incredibly good job of capturing audio. (I'm amazed at what came through on these tapes; video was shoddy but audio is beautiful.) So, I'm hoping to capture the audio as best I can, but hopefully in a way that I can sync it to the less-important but still interesting video component. If I can't, it's not a big deal, I can always capture AV, then do a second audio-only capture through a more dedicated recording card.

the audio on all those formats except Hi8 is already crapped out -- i.e. relatively poor quality. Doesnt mater what you recorded it with - it's a nature of the format ..


DV makes sense in that 48khz/16bit pcm is perfect for what you want .. recording in higher (96) would actually cause worse sound quality form those sources plus add several sample rate conversions from source to store to delivery - which is a big no no ..

using a laya or other m-audio card will just add to your sync problems ..



you want best analog capture? ---> DPS / Leitch card .... $2500-$5000


I would think you might want to use also sony noise reduction also on your captured audio ...

[edDV]

Although I don't recommend multi-track capture in swiego's case, it is possible to do, saves time and somewhat simplifies syncing the tracks later.

There have been times when recording an event, I'll record an audio track off the house mixer with a DAT or cassette or whatever is handy, and then use that track later in the mix. You can visually match the waveforms and then fine trim to minimize any echo. Good editing programs will allow sub field trims for a perfect audio match.