Super 8mm Film capture - Which DV Camcorder?

[SaSi]

Having gone through several posting and links related to 8mm film transfer, I have reached the conclusion that I will need a good quality 8mm projector (have) and a DV camera that allows the shutter frame rate to be adjusted.

Several links with guides and advise say that film must be projected at 20fps and DV capture should be at 60fps.

I am going to buy a DV camcorder - not just for this - to replace my 8mm ageing one, so I understand that I need to buy one that allows the shutter speed and capture frame rate to be adjusted.

Can anyone recommend a model that does this? I need a PAL model, so I guess european responses will be more helpful.

[areinike]

I have an old Sony Digital 8 DCR-TRV315 that I used when I did mine. I noted the shutter speed difference as well. Mine has the shutter speed setting but kind of "hidden." Meaning, there's not a button setting for SHUTTER SPEED. I have to select Digital Effect - Slow Shtr or I can use Old Movie. Works nice, but I'm still looking at using one of those video transfer units. Seeming they have ambient lighting built in, I would like to get the best sharpness I can possibly get. Those old Super 8 films were super sharp.

[tdan]

I am in the process of working out a process, and this is the direction of my thinking-- By combining DV with Avisynth, just shoot it with flicker. The camera is shooting at ~60 fields/sec (~30 frames / sec) and the film is running at ~18 fps. This means that the video is oversampling the film by more than double. The "flicker" is just the video camera catching the shutter, but the frame before or after should be complete.

The appropriate AviSynth script should be able to extract the original 18 progressive frames per second. This can then be encoded using a suitable pull-down.

In my case, I have modded a projector to run even slower, so I will be able to try different speeds to get even more oversampling if required.


Thoughts?

Dan

EDIT - noticed you are PAL... the frame rate on the video is lower, but the idea is still the same,

[pfh]

I think at some point in the process, a good projector with variable speed control is a must.

[SaSi]

tdan's approach, a good projector modified to create the appropriate frame rate is my original thought as well.

I am also thinking along a different path - other than a DV camcorder.

I am thinking of using the transport mechanism of an old projector that has burnt out electricals - can't use the term "electronics" for this ancient piece - to build a single frame advance mechanism, complete with spools and film path.

The idea is that an electrical pulse will trigger a stepper motor to advance the sprocket so that the next frame is put in front of the lens.

Using a bright white reflective surface - a glossy piece of A4 inkjet paper is my first candidate - as a projection surface, I have half of what I need.

Then comes the tricky part.

I am considering using a powerful flashlight (Guide Number 38 is my best) as a light source. The flash light will be directly coupled to my digital camera.

Having the flash light mounted properly behind the film, I will connect it with a hot shoe extension cable to my digital camera (Canon G3).

The G3 can be "remote controlled" by the PC to take pictures and store them directly onto the PC. This way, and using an 800x600 resolution I have bechmarked it to be able to take about 17 pictures per 10 seconds.

The obvious aproach is that the camera will take a landscape picture of the frame. However this creates some topological issues: The simplest configuration is to have the film transport perpendicular to the camera landscape orientation. This helps have the camera lens be located as close to the film as possible and reduce paralax. However the camera picture will need to be rotated and also the full camera resolution cannot be utilized.

Using a slave flashlight sensor, I will be able to snap the flashlight burst and generate the pulse to drive the sprocket feed so that the film advances to the next frame.

Having built all that, the PC will drive the camera to take a picture, the camera will simultaneusly fire the flash - so that a projection of the current frame is captured, and the slave unit will generate a pulse for the next frame to be placed in position. As soon as the PC receives the image, a new shot will be fired, and so on.

After that, combining the frames into a video sequence is simple. Some resizing to make it into PAL frame size is required of course but this is elementary.

The tricky parts are:
Will the flashlight burst be enough for a crisp image to be projected?
How easy will it be to take the slave unit's pulse and drive the stepper motor precicely so that the next frame - EXACTLY - is advanced before the aperture?
Will the flashlight survive 35 rolls of 50 ft films ?

Complicated - isnt' it ? However, it comes as close to a film scanner as home equipment can get.

[troyvcd1]

I applaud your efforts in doing this. I found out for myself that it is cheaper and especially easier to send it to a professional to have him put it on minidv tapes. They have the best equipment to remove frame stutter and they will give the best quality.

[pfh]

WOAH! DUUUUUDE!

[tdan]

I found out for myself that it is cheaper and especially easier to send it to a professional to have him put it on minidv tapes.

But what fun would that be?

Sasi - That is an interesting approach, but as you note, it is very slow.

In addition to replacing the AC motor in my projector with a variable speed DC drive, I have also removed the original bulb and replaced it with a standard 40W globe lamp which provides a nice even and diffuse light, with no risk of burning the film.

I have set up the projector to shoot onto a mirror and through a 5" condenser lens. This is projected right into DV camera (which is basically focussing on the image in "mid air". If you google "aerial telecine", you can see the concept). With the appropriate white balance, the images are quite stunning. I am still in the prototyping phase, but hope to have some sample images soon.

I was also going to set up a trigger and do frame by frame capture using a program called Cinecap when I realized that my Avisynth approach (described above) might be flat out simpler (and much faster). Again, I hope to get some test videos done this week and will post my findings.

Dan

[pfh]

sounds like some fun stuff you guys are trying. will be interesting to see some shots.
Does the mirror reverse the image though?

[tdan]

Does the mirror reverse the image though?

Since the projector is shooting directly into the camera, the mirror actually corrects the orientation.