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  1. I'm sorry to keep bothering you lordsmurf but I have just 1 more question for you.

    If I go ahead with the disk "as is" what is the negative side in doing this? Does it just not sound as good, I mean, what is it? Why he he pushing these 2 other formats so much?

    I just want to be sure if I do go ahead with this it's not THAT big of a deal, this is my livelihood at state, this is how I make my money is through DVD sales so I really can't afford to make a big mistake here. Thanks for your time! Ricky
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  2. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    If this is a small number of discs (1000 or less) I'd do it if getting AC3 audio is impossible. If this is more discs, and this is REALLY important, get your source files from "authoring guy" and hire somebody else that does AC3. But remember: DO THIS IN ADVANCE. Part of this problem is because you didn't really discuss specs up front (but that's just a lesson to remember, nothing can be done now).

    I'm not sure how hard this will be. However, even a somewhat decent/experienced editor will know how to extract the video and convert the audio to AC3 if you give him the final disc (and authoring guy refuses to release the work files).

    Disadvantages of MP2 in NTSC include TWO THINGS:

    1) The player won't see audio (maybe not even see the disc). Not too many players are like this, and it's mostly older ones, the "expensive" ones, and the "videophile" ones. In other words, a small percentage of overall players.

    2) The audio may be "tinny" sounding. It may have the "compressed" quality to it if the MPEG audio decoder isn't super-perfect. One of my players is like this, the MP2 will get tinny, especially as volume increases. I have only seen this a couple times ever.

    So sure, you run a couple negative risks ... but again .. NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

    As far as "duping guy" goes ... you could write 4GB of garbage onto the data disc, and he'll be able to press a copy from it. They do make DVD-ROMs with data and video games, after all. The easy answer to his "this isn't proper" is "so what... do it anyway".

    And of course .... don't do this again. :P
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    should have hired me
    Or me. :P

    Or anybody that knows what they're doing. 8)
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  4. Thanks a bunch. So what I'm understanding is is that it will sound and look the same as what I see on the screen, it's just not "Ideal" to use MPG2.
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  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Dont get confused here.
    MPEG-2 is the video format.
    MPEG Layer II (MP2) is a format of audio.

    All DVD video is either MPEG-2 or MPEG-1.
    Mostly MPEG-2 as MPEG-1 is REALLY LIMITED for DVD.

    Audio for DVD can also be PCM (WAV/AIFF), DTS, or AC3 (Dolby).

    MP2 *may* have the two problems explained above, but most likely, yes, as you say, it should look AND SOUND just fine on most players.

    Not an ideal way to do things, certainly not "the most professional" but it surely works.
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  6. Okay thanks, I understand now. Somebody said I can use Sonic MyDVD 6 and TMPGEnc DVD Author to do AC-3. So basically he can take the MP2 files and just dump them into one of these programs and it will convert them to AC-3? Is this the best way to get AC-3? If so, I will buy it right now
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  7. Member GeorgeW's Avatar
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    I would avoid mpeg audio as the main/only audio track on an NTSC DVD.

    It is not part of the NTSC spec (as it is for PAL -- I think it still is part of the PAL DVD specs). I agree it's not the end of the world, but if you are pressing 1000 copies, and this is mission-critical (to your business), you might suffer potential bad word-of-mouth advertising from those who cannot hear your audio.


    -as mentioned, it's true that many NTSC DVD Players will play mpeg audio (especially if they say they can play VCD's). Problem is I see so many posts in different forums titled "why can't I hear the audio on my dvd player" -- only to find out they authored with mpeg audio on an NTSC DVD (or their DVD Player is hooked up to an audio system such that mpeg audio doesn't travel properly).

    -I also agree the replicator guy was in "outer space" making his comments about the audio. However, he would be justified in those comments if the mpeg video/audio was just burned to a disc (without any authoring at all)
    George
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  8. Член BJ_M's Avatar
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    the pioneer 7400/7300 industrial players will not play mpeg audio , neither will some high end players and some bose players and the players they used to use in GM trucks ....

    it was removed from the pal specs - it was only there for a short time and caused a lot of confusion to say the least ..

    audio specs for ntsc and pal are the same ..
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  9. I'm just going to press them how they are. I just called DiskMakers (not going through them) just to see what they would say and he said as long as it plays on a DVD player they will press it and it's not a big deal
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  10. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RB4580
    Okay thanks, I understand now. Somebody said I can use Sonic MyDVD 6 and TMPGEnc DVD Author to do AC-3. So basically he can take the MP2 files and just dump them into one of these programs and it will convert them to AC-3? Is this the best way to get AC-3? If so, I will buy it right now
    Not a very professional product ... and no ... these only have AC3 if you purchase the AC3 add-in.

    But even then, I'm not so sure these are 100% licensed perfect encoders. There were some tests on AC3 on this site many months ago, so horrible test results on some of these cheap encoders. So this could very well also cause problems on certain players, though maybe not as many as MP2. Still not perfect.

    Not to scare you, but fair warning.
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  11. Member GeorgeW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    the pioneer 7400/7300 industrial players will not play mpeg audio , neither will some high end players and some bose players and the players they used to use in GM trucks ....

    it was removed from the pal specs - it was only there for a short time and caused a lot of confusion to say the least ..

    audio specs for ntsc and pal are the same ..
    Better tell Jim Taylor about this:
    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6.2

    Should also update the DVD Information for PAL specs at this famous site:
    https://www.videohelp.com/dvd
    George
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  12. Man this is crazy. I just had my Film guy also call DiskMakers and he got a different story than me. He said AC-3 is the format. This is killing me. PLUS, the programs that do convert to AC-3 are unprofessional for the most part from what I'm hearing, guess I just go with MP2....... I'm confused..
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  13. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeorgeW
    Better tell Jim Taylor about this:
    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6.2
    Originally Posted by http://dvddemystified.com/jim/jhtaylor.htm
    Jim Taylor is Chief of DVD Technology and General Manager of the Advanced Technology Group at Sonic Solutions
    Let's just say that doesn't carry much weight with some of us. Anybody that has experienced the hell that is Sonic Solutions software (much of it at least, not necessarily ALL of it) is well aware of what I'm talking about.

    Great site, lot of great info ... not perfect.

    Originally Posted by GeorgeW
    Should also update the DVD Information for PAL specs at this famous site:https://www.videohelp.com/dvd
    PM Baldrick about it, put it in the feedback area. MP2 is an unofficial spec for all formats. Generally works, but not 100% compliant, no.
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  14. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RB4580
    Man this is crazy. I just had my Film guy also call DiskMakers and he got a different story than me. He said AC-3 is the format. This is killing me. PLUS, the programs that do convert to AC-3 are unprofessional for the most part from what I'm hearing, guess I just go with MP2....... I'm confused..
    If I can burn it and play it ... you can press it and play it.
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  15. Thanks lordsmurf for hangin' in there with me on this deal. I think it is safe to go ahead and just have them pressed. To be honest, out of 1,000$, if 20 of them don't play I"m not to concerned about that
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    Then there is that pesky "licensing" thing. Since you are making a Motion Picture DVD (RE: Video) for resale, you are required to have a Motion Picture Service Agreement from Dolby Laboratories. If you didn't provide proof of license to your "authorer", then he could have used the MP2 format as an alternative. PCM audio would consume about 2GB of your disc space on its own.

    Since any Mpeg audio format is not DVD complient with an NTSC video, your pressing guy may have simply refused to create the DVD (maybe HIS software won't let him create a non-complient DVD).

    I would start this all over, but first get all the proper documentation in order.
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  17. Well if he doesn't, Disk Makers will. The wife and I sell intructional DVD's from http://www.braidsbybreslin.com/dvd.html . I really wouldn't consider it a motion picture, they are just instructional DVD's
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    Originally Posted by GeorgeW
    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    the pioneer 7400/7300 industrial players will not play mpeg audio , neither will some high end players and some bose players and the players they used to use in GM trucks ....

    it was removed from the pal specs - it was only there for a short time and caused a lot of confusion to say the least ..

    audio specs for ntsc and pal are the same ..
    Better tell Jim Taylor about this:
    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6.2

    Should also update the DVD Information for PAL specs at this famous site:
    https://www.videohelp.com/dvd
    sure tell him -- the specification were changed about 2 years ago and many people didnt notice the change unless they subscribe to the dvd specs org books ($5500) - since i helped with proofing several compression/dvd books, test applications as a consultant as well as do compression professionally - i tend to follow these things.

    mpeg audio was made optional on both pal and ntsc -- it was 'default' at first on pal and optional on ntsc ..
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  19. Член BJ_M's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SLK001
    Then there is that pesky "licensing" thing. Since you are making a Motion Picture DVD (RE: Video) for resale, you are required to have a Motion Picture Service Agreement from Dolby Laboratories. If you didn't provide proof of license to your "authorer", then he could have used the MP2 format as an alternative. PCM audio would consume about 2GB of your disc space on its own.

    Since any Mpeg audio format is not DVD complient with an NTSC video, your pressing guy may have simply refused to create the DVD (maybe HIS software won't let him create a non-complient DVD).

    I would start this all over, but first get all the proper documentation in order.

    that is only for film -- not dvd ...


    for dvd - you need a lic'd encoder and if you want to use the dolby trademark on your disk - you need to apply to do so ...
    http://www.dolby.com/professional/licensing_trademark/apply_trademark.cfm
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  20. Okay, I just got a call back from Disk Makers and he got ahold of a Authoring Engineer and he said that all they will take is AC-3 now! Man.... So does anybody have any good recommendations for converting the MP2 to AC-3??? I need to buy a program today!
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  21. Member GeorgeW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    Originally Posted by GeorgeW
    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    the pioneer 7400/7300 industrial players will not play mpeg audio , neither will some high end players and some bose players and the players they used to use in GM trucks ....

    it was removed from the pal specs - it was only there for a short time and caused a lot of confusion to say the least ..

    audio specs for ntsc and pal are the same ..
    Better tell Jim Taylor about this:
    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6.2

    Should also update the DVD Information for PAL specs at this famous site:
    https://www.videohelp.com/dvd
    sure tell him -- the specification were changed about 2 years ago and many people didnt notice the change unless they subscribe to the dvd specs org books ($5500) - since i helped with proofing several compression/dvd books, test applications as a consultant as well as do compression professionally - i tend to follow these things.

    mpeg audio was made optional on both pal and ntsc -- it was 'default' at first on pal and optional on ntsc ..
    I cannot afford the official specs, so I appreciate your update on this matter (I learn something new everyday). Just to be clear, can you define the word "Optional" -- does it mandate that if a DVD Disc contains mpeg audio as its only audio track, that the DVD Player must support it (NTSC and PAL)?

    Or does it mean it is an "Optional" audio format, and your DVD must still contain another audio track (LPCM or DD)?

    Thanks

    EDIT:
    this thread has gotten a little off track, and my apologies to the original poster. I don't mean to hijack your thread.


    EDIT #2:
    just realized what you are saying. The change was to make mpeg audio "Optional" for PAL (rather than a PAL Standard). Is that correct?
    George
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  22. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    If you want it best (video) quality and best compatibility, you're going to want it to be AC3 audio (224-384 kbps).
    MAKE SURE your "film guy" uses the source WAV files to re-encode from. For heaven's sake, don't use the mp2 as source!
    Since you're over 2 hours in runtime, it would certainly make sense for the video to be multipass VBR encoded MPEG2. I'm willing to bet, given all the other difficulties, that the current video is CBR-encoded. Not as efficient use of bitrate--not as high quality.

    BTW, you should expect him to do this (including getting a licensed AC3 encoder) for free, and pronto!
    Anyone worth his salt in DVD-land should know that kind of info and be capable of encoding correctly, especially once it is known that the product is going to a replicator.

    On another note, nobody has made note of it, but I think that what the replicator was meaning when they referred to stuff being "all over the place" has to do with AUDIO VOLUME LEVELS(read it again and it makes much more sense that way). And you don't want that to be left that way either. Very unprofessional.

    Next time, hire me. (or BJ_M, or lordsmurf, etc)

    Scott
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  23. Член BJ_M's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeorgeW
    EDIT #2:
    just realized what you are saying. The change was to make mpeg audio "Optional" for PAL (rather than a PAL Standard). Is that correct?

    correct -

    but it is supposed to be supported on all PAL dvd players (though i have no proof of this. Can someone tell me of a commercial dvd that only had mpeg audio on it and was pal?) but doesnt have to be supported on ntsc players ..

    in fact when you get down it ==a dvd player dosnt really have to support anything but 100% by the book dvd specs ...
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  24. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RB4580
    Okay, I just got a call back from Disk Makers and he got ahold of a Authoring Engineer and he said that all they will take is AC-3 now! Man.... So does anybody have any good recommendations for converting the MP2 to AC-3??? I need to buy a program today!
    If you gave them ready-for-press materials, I fail to see what the issue is. If you gave them raw audio/video, I'd understand. Why does the "authoring engineer" (where's George Carlin when I need him) have any input on this anyway?
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  25. AC3 audio.
    I'm not a professional, but here is what I'd look into:

    Soundforge = very expensive.

    Tmpgenc Author +ac3 addon = reasonably priced.

    ffmpeggui = free, not 100% compliant, but very close, never had an issue with it. remember seeing a post were someone analyzed the AC3 output and listed the differences. Then he said they were all minor differences that probably wouldn't matter. Is a transcoder I do believe, so audio might not be as great as soundforge.
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  26. Well I have Soundforge 7.0 and it gives like 15 options to save as and AC3 isn't an option.. 8-(
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  27. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    SoundForge does not do AC3.
    SoftEncode does, but that's discontinued I think.
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  28. Член BJ_M's Avatar
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    http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/shopping/item.asp?pid=279

    on the right hand side of the screen is the ac3 encoder ..

    plus acid 5 , about 700$ together --

    or get vegas +dvda2 , for about same price
    "Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
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  29. Just got Vegas, you can save as AC-3...
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  30. Member GeorgeW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BJ_M
    Originally Posted by GeorgeW
    EDIT #2:
    just realized what you are saying. The change was to make mpeg audio "Optional" for PAL (rather than a PAL Standard). Is that correct?

    correct -

    but it is supposed to be supported on all PAL dvd players (though i have no proof of this. Can someone tell me of a commercial dvd that only had mpeg audio on it and was pal?) but doesnt have to be supported on ntsc players ..

    in fact when you get down it ==a dvd player dosnt really have to support anything but 100% by the book dvd specs ...
    ok, so the change from a couple of years ago did not change the mpeg audio status for NTSC -- since it doesn't have to be supported on NTSC players, then it seems risky to include that format on an NTSC DVD (not so much a problem with newer models, but still a concern with older NTSC DVD players)
    George
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