Pioneer DVR-220 video recording test

[NightWing]

OOPS! Should have stated the pics for those old test were from Video Essentials. The clips of picture section in chapter 20.

Yea I agree on her face. Was looking more at the dark levels and artifacts.

Actualt the Walmart 220 and the BestBuy 225 are the same units. There is a 220 in Europe which is also the same unit but has Euro style AV plugs. Oh well! For 250 the 220 really works hard and does a decent job. Hardly ever use the R04 any more. Except tapping something when I am out and it over 4 hours. Then tag team the two.

EDITED:

If you play it back on the R04. Black level looks ok but records hi so to speak.

For reference uses DVD2one and cant rember the wrapper so I could get it into Primiere. Drop "both" onto different tracks. Set one to split. Then did an export single frame to bmp file. Had my usual fits keeping Adobe junk running!

[gshelley61]

Is the 220 Wal Mart? I thought the 210 was the Wal Mart version...

[NightWing]

Yep.

Walmart DVR-220-U
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2598467&cat=105664&type=19&dept=...62055%3A124623

BestBuy DVR-225
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1077628998152&skuId=6496534&type=product

And the European Pioneer DVR-220-S
http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/product_detail.jsp?product_id=8531&taxonomy_id=62-125

[Tom Roper]

Originally posted by gshelley61

NTSC standards are going to be completely abandoned in the near future anyway. The TV station I work for already is transmitting 2 different ATSC digital signals (our regular SD and HD programming, and a separate 24-hour local weather channel). We eventually will be shutting down our analog NTSC transmitter altogether. The NTSC 7.5 IRE standard is a relic from the past that is being phased out. You keep saying 7.5 IRE is the "legal" standard. You are failing to mention the other 18 (!) ATSC digital formats that are not only "legal", but are in place and actively on the air in many cities - and all of them are 0 IRE black level...........

.......You say that 99% of people will be recording TV and VHS to DVD... then that makes my point. Somehow that 7.5 IRE black level should be stepped down to 0 IRE or the resulting DVD will not be correct. That's probably OK for a general consumer who won't notice the difference, but we are supposed to be video enthusiasts here. Learning the proper standards to apply to your digital recordings and DVD's is important, especially because that is our future in North America... not the old analog 7.5 IRE standard which will soon be extinct.

1.) That's fine, but DVD-Video is an NTSC format, not ATSC! You have to play by the rules for NTSC sources, which is 7.5 IRE!

2.) If you present 7.5 IRE at the S-Vid input to the NTSC compliant DVD recorder, "setup" is subtracted from the input, so that you automatically get a 0 IRE recording onto the DVD disk.

...(for the DVR-220)...On the input side alone there is an adjustable 3D Y/C comb filter, video noise reduction, variable detail enhancer, white (luma) auto gain control, manual white level control, manual black level control, source black level setup for 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE, hue (white balance) and chroma (color level).

You didn't mention *which* setting you used on the Pioneer, but I have to assume that since the THX pluge test for the DVR-220 matched the source disk, you set the input on the Pioneer for 0 IRE source. You would have to, or it would otherwise playback dark. In other words, on the A320, you output at the wrong level (0 IRE), and you corrected for that mistake at the input of the DVD-220 by setting it to (0 IRE). The net result, was correct playback.

Unfortunately from your tests, the conclusion that's emerging about the JVC M10 is that it only records the correct black level when its non-adjustable input is fed a non-NTSC compliant 0 IRE input level.

If you use the A320 7.5 IRE output (and assuming it's calibrated), the JVC M10 black level is going to be brighter than it should be, i.e. the notorious "black level bug."

If the A320 output is not calibrated, then the results for all the tests don't mean didly anyway.

[gshelley61]

The encoded black level on DVD's is 0 IRE. NTSC DVD players artificially setup the encoded black level by +7.5 IRE, but that is not the black level of the actual DVD source material. DVD-Video is a digital format, 720x480i at full D1 (in NTSC land). Analog NTSC signals are 525 scan lines with visible content in about 483 of the lines. Horizontal resolution then depends on the bandwidth of the analog video source.

DVD-Video is converted to the analog NTSC signal by the DVD player D-->A section (unless the player has digital video output - then a digital stream is sent instead). It is perfectly fine (and preferable) to set the analog output at 0 IRE. Your blacks will be blacker that way, the image will more closely match what was encoded on the DVD, and the dynamic range of the video will be greater (0-100 IRE rather than 7.5-100 IRE).

You are correct about the JVC (and several other) DVD recorders. They have a fixed input and output black level that applies no setup either incoming or outgoing, which presents no problem if the recorded discs are played back on the same machine. The DVD recorders that have adjustable black level inputs designed to compensate for 7.5 IRE sources (and therefore correctly encode the recorded DVD at 0 IRE) have an advantage, at least for those that know what the feature is for and how to use it.

My testing methods were the same for all three DVD recorders. They received exactly the same signal input... a digital source at 0 IRE black level. Nothing wrong with that - MiniDV and Digital8 are also 0 IRE, and they are frequently the source type being converted to DVD with these units.

[Tom Roper]

The encoded black level on DVD's is 0 IRE.

We agree that the black level should be encoded onto the DVD disk at 0 IRE. The Pioneer includes a selectable 0 or 7.5 IRE input, so that it can be encoded at 0 IRE from either input level.

But the JVC M10 lacking such feature, can't encode a 0 IRE disk from a compliant U.S. spec NTSC 7.5 IRE source. Do you see the problem?

This is exactly the flaw found on the Toshibas.

[gshelley61]

...the JVC M10 lacking such feature, can't encode a 0 IRE disk from a compliant U.S. spec NTSC 7.5 IRE source. Do you see the problem?

I understand the point. It is not an issue for me, since in practice I routinely use a SignVideo Proc Amp on all my sources to be sure the setup is correct and the max luma is not too hot. So, I want a recorder that produces MPEG2 very close to the signal it is fed. I have found that video sources vary widely in quality and signal level, and that the simple -7.5 IRE black level adjustment done by DVD recorders that have such a feature is insufficient for for dealing with many situations (to achieve optimum encoding quality). I do think the Pioneer unit I just started looking at addresses this more adequately, since it has so many input adjustments.

Anyway, the typical consumer has no idea about any of this stuff. All those input and output adjustments on some DVD recorders would likely confuse most people, and could wind up leading them to really screw up their recordings if they set them the wrong way. Hell, they confuse us here on this forum! It's not like the owner's manuals for these machines carefully explain any of this, either. I think some DVD recorder designers have figured that leaving the black levels fixed (no setup on either input or output) provides an advantageous ease of use factor for most consumers. They will never notice the difference, especially if they play their recorded discs on the same machine they were recorded on.

For us video hobbyists, we each have to determine what type of hardware we want, with what features and capabilities, etc. I think the JVC works perfectly fine as a hardware MPEG2 encoder, with excellent image quality and very few artifacts. Many feel the same way about their particular brand and model. I think if we discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of all these different video products, we each will be able to arrive at decisions that fit our particular needs the best.

[steve2713]

I've got a Pioneer 420 and the more the IRE settings get discussed on here, the LESS certain I become what the proper setting would be for a given use...

For recording of a Cable signal, for future playback with most NTSC DVD Players, is 7.5 IRE going to be the correct setting (I do not care whatsoever about playback on the 420, just for playback on your average consumer level standalone DVD Player)? That was how I'd understood it until all these discussions came up. And for VHS/Analog Camcorder captures? 7.5, yes?

[zorankarapancev]

Yes!

[gshelley61]

Yes!

... unless you are recording from MiniDV or Digital8... they are 0 IRE

edit - z, you changed your post on me... :P

[steve2713]

Yes!

Unless you are recording from MiniDV or Digital8... they are 0 IRE

WTF... So what's the answer here? The Pioneer uses 7.5 IRE for their 'tuner' setting, not 0 IRE.

[zorankarapancev]

The question was:

For recording of a Cable signal, for future playback with most NTSC DVD Players, is 7.5 IRE going to be the correct setting (I do not care whatsoever about playback on the 420, just for playback on your average consumer level standalone DVD Player)? That was how I'd understood it until all these discussions came up. And for VHS/Analog Camcorder captures? 7.5, yes?

The right answer is : YES!

If you don't have DV, Digital8, DVCAM, DVPRO... you don't need 0 IRE.

[steve2713]

The question was:

For recording of a Cable signal, for future playback with most NTSC DVD Players, is 7.5 IRE going to be the correct setting (I do not care whatsoever about playback on the 420, just for playback on your average consumer level standalone DVD Player)? That was how I'd understood it until all these discussions came up. And for VHS/Analog Camcorder captures? 7.5, yes?

The right answer is : YES!

If you don't have DV, D8, DVCAM, DVPRO... you don't need 0 IRE.

LOL, ok thanks for clarifying. I thought I was losing it for a few minutes :P That's what I'd thought, but some of these discussions are really wandering away from your 'typical' situations.

I will say I did use 0 IRE for capturing one overly dark VHS capture, it was far from an ideal way of capturing it as the black levels are not quite truly black now, but shadow detail was enhanced at least.

[Tom Roper]

WTF... So what's the answer here? The Pioneer uses 7.5 IRE for their 'tuner' setting, not 0 IRE.

The answer is 7.5 IRE. THAT's what you use.

[Tom Roper]

Some confusion may abound because the 0 IRE records the brighter picture, and 7.5 IRE records the darker picture.

[Tom Roper]

Yes!

... unless you are recording from MiniDV or Digital8... they are 0 IRE

edit - z, you changed your post on me... :P

Paraphrasing what he meant:

(If you are recording from) MiniDV or Digital8..... <---(those) are 0 IRE

[gshelley61]

Some confusion may abound because the 0 IRE records the brighter picture, and 7.5 IRE records the darker picture.

0 IRE input setting = image is recorded with no adjustment (same as the source)

7.5 IRE input setting = reduces black level -7.5 IRE (darker than the source)

[steve2713]

Alright, thanks all for the responses. It IS how I'd understood it after all, the discussions here had only created more confusion than clarity for me about what I had previously 'known' what the correct settings were:P

[vhelp]

I think that I have the solution. Actually, the idea came to me, and the
final conclusions there of, when I started putting two and two together
as I toy'ed with the sample pics you and others posted here, and adding in,
some of my own tests, including my various equipment I too have at my disposal.

I dont' know what the word is for it, or proper sentence, but I'll do my
best to explaine in earth language.

* VHS
* TV (cable or antenna)
* Laserdisc
* DVD
* 2nd DVD recorder, etc.

The above all have IRE pre-configures or factory defaults. Some units
have a two-position swith for better handling (IRE A/B for instance)

Its said that VHS/TV/Laserdisc/DVD are all at IRE 7.5 levels.
I say, it's a given.

What you really need to know (or pay attention to here) is this.

* your source material

That is your key to success. And, like it or not, only a few of us
have the eye for detail (or spotting certain things) or knowing what
to look for. For instance, levels of video brightness. With our good
eye for detail, one might catch a difference or something odd about a
given source material. And, if you don't have any tools or utilities
on hand, (or know how to take advantage of a unit/device as a tool)
you won't get far. In my case, my ADVC-100 is such a tool. Yes. It
has an onbard IRE A/B switch. If my source is too light, (thanks to
my eye) I can at a moments thougth, switch the IRE level to compensate
for this brightness. Now, the source's brightness might not have any
thing to do with the IRE levels, but it might help anyways.
Now, those with tools, other than the ADVC-100 device, might fair a
little better with a device more tailored to the job at hand. It will
depend largely on the tool/device. Anyways.

If your end goal is soley to obtain maximum quality, AND, this is your
hobby and somethign you do everything, the above and then some, is all
ways going to be worth it, no matter what others might say.. "at, its
not worth it.. yada yada" And, then're right.., from a newbie or a
part-timer point of view. It's not worth it.
But, for perfectionists like some of us here, it is. And, that is
what these threads are all about. And those of use who frequent the
areas, will find this out in due time, and act upon it, with a "let
me try it" approach. Anyways.

Scenario..

Say your source is a VHS. Right away, your first impressions are, that
its IRE 7.5 level. Naturally, pick as default param. So you record
it as such, assuming that you're going to get a IRE 7.5 return on your
produce, but instead, you get a IRE 0 return. You have two conclusions
that you can draw from this mixed result.

A - you can blaim it on the dvd recorder unit not recording w/ the
...... right IRE levels or,

B - you could assume that you source device is at fault (ie, incorrect
...... IRE levels) or,

C - you could assume that both devices are at tip top shape, but that
...... your source was pre-recorded at a different IRE level before
...... you (your dvd recorder) got your source and processed it. And,
...... in this case, your dvd recorder could be ether boosting or lowering
...... the final IRE levels. This could also effect something that was
...... put on DVD's as well. In fact, it could also be a 2nd generation
...... dvd recorder project.

I also think that a part of the blaim for the vast inconsistancies with
IRE results, have something to do with the DVD players. I have two
Apex DVD players ( AD-500 and AD-1500 ) and both exhibit a different
level in brightnes. For instance, my AD-500 's output is lighter than
my AD-1500 model.
.
So you see, even if I did perform the same test on both players, I would
have gotten different results. I don't believe that they make a variable
or Audo IRE curcuitry. I think that it is On or Off, or option for
both settings. I don't think there is an auto-mode for such devices, and
that would wreck hauvic on our final projects. There would be so many
miss-fires.., as in the above scenarios.

@ gshelley,

And, I would also like to note hereI would like to send you a VOB file, for you to test on your DVD player,
and note the results you obtain from it. But, I'm unditermined on what
material to send you (movie title)

Anyways.

I think that a part of the missing facts were (after A and B) C.

I would also like to note here, that I'm working on a tool that might help
us with some of these tests. When I complete work on one of the tools, I
may remember to inform you all about it. Until then.. keep pluging away

@ NightWing

The pic on (page 1) is that from your Video Essentials disk, or is that from
a dvd movie/preview/trialer ??
I was hoping to find it in my dvd collection, to add to my tests. I like this
one. Anyways.., Just curious. Thanks.

-vhelp 3165

[lordsmurf]

vehelp, as you suggest, IRE levels are all over the places, and I'm not talking about the recorders and players ... I mean the sources are like that. I record a certain tv show every week, and the contrast/color/black level of it is never 100% the same from last week.

[vhelp]

I mean the sources are like that. I record a certain tv show every week, and the contrast/color/black level of it is never 100% the same from last week.

Yes. That's exactly what I've ben saying.

I'm watching "Will & Grace" now, (WB) and it's on the lighter side today.
Sometimes though, its suppose to be darker.

The other side to my arguments (notes) above, was with respect to the
level of the source. Even if your devices were correct on each end, (or not)
and you proceeded to record the source to your dvd recorder, your unit could
have or might be boosting or lowering or in-between, your IRE levels.

And then there is the other side of the coin, where the source might have
been processed (non-IRE wise) perhaps with filters or whatever, and it went
into a bad zone, and the dvd recorder captured the source and processed it
the way it was pre-configured or factory default'wise, and when you observed
it, you thought your IRE levels were wrong. Only the eye can know the true
difference in most cases. And, if you have a good gauge or reference source
to go by, you're better off coming closer to a better process and end result

-vhelp 3167

[Yvon]

...........And then there is the other side of the coin, where the source might have
been processed (non-IRE wise) perhaps with filters or whatever, and it went
into a bad zone, and the dvd recorder captured the source and processed it
the way it was pre-configured or factory default'wise, and when you observed
it, you thought your IRE levels were wrong. Only the eye can know the true
difference in most cases. And, if you have a good gauge or reference source
to go by, you're better off coming closer to a better process and end result

-vhelp 3167

IMHO, all commercial DVDs seem to have been pressed at 0 IRE.

The best example is Woody Allen's "Radio Days". Most scenes have been shot in dimly lit interiors. This is unwatchable as is and you have to lighen the movie at the maximum to enjoy it. I suppose that this means you raise the IRE to 7.5

Same with all the other commercial DVDs.

Yvon

[gshelley61]

Every source varies in signal levels, and every piece of equipment (including the TV or display) varies in how they handle signals. Almost nothing is perfectly calibrated, mastered, transmitted or processed to an exact standard. That's the reality of the situation. Throw in the transition from the old 7.5 IRE analog broadcast standard to the new 0 IRE digital ATSC broadcast and DV standards that North America is going through right now, and it can be a confusing mess.

[mike1061]

and it can be a confusing mess.

IMO, that sould read "is a confusing mess"
Thanks Mike

[Tom Roper]

Throw in the transition from the old 7.5 IRE analog broadcast standard to the new 0 IRE digital ATSC broadcast and DV standards that North America is going through right now, and it can be a confusing mess.

ATSC doesn't change anything for analog DVDRs. The ATSC tuner still outputs 7.5 IRE (setup) at the S-Vid terminal.

[vhelp]

FWIW..

My unit, (which was purchased at a Wal-Mart store near me) was labeled:

Pioneer DVR-220-S

I don't know what the model is at the on-line store is though
Anyways.., was just a fwiw.

-vhelp 3206

[vhelp]

I did some more tests with my given setups
More fun tests. I love this hobby. Anyways.

I've ben pretty busy yesterday night, comparing my AD-500 vs. AD-1500 player
output levels from my 220 unit, and I'm geting different outputs from both.
I must admit though, I haven't found a setting in my unit to match the
(any) player's output fluid'ly like NightWing's sample on page 1 yet.
It's nerve-racking at best. Never-the-less.

I now have a conclusion, (baased on my two tested dvd player) that the last
missing link (puzzle piece) to this IRE issue, is the source's mediums
being used.

Because I have two different outputs from each of my players, it is safe
to state that the major curve in one's final output (not matching
source dvd) is the source being recorded/captured from.
.
Its my theory (and OP) that each brand/make/model device used, have variations
in the IRE levels (or volage mV levels) a given unit outputs across
it's wires (be it Composite, or S-Video) as source output.
.
Therefore, to say that it is a given unit (take the beloved Pioneer 220S)
fault, is partially wrong. I say paritally, (based on my many tests) because
after using my iLO, I found it to be lacking in optimim output levels,
(but) when using my 220S as a guage/reference tool. I probably shouldn't
be doing that But. Anyways.

In the mean time, I will get ready, some images for you all to digest
and sort out in your minds as well as your intelects what's going on.

In the end, you'll all probably agree with me that it's the devices
that these recorder units process, is at fault. If any anything, I'm
almost certain that you'll agree with me, that the missing link (or puzzle
piece) is the this find I just laid out - the dvd players fault.

Again, I say that it is very important, to have a properly set unit.
But, for those who's soul purpose is to just 'press record', than the
above and then some, are not your concirn Only us geeks :P and
those of live for testing everything, like myself.

Stay tuned, for some images I'll upload here

Cheers all.

From the Video Workstation of,
-vhelp 3206

[vhelp]

FWIW, I am going to re-run a new test, but this time, adding in another
dvd player.. my iLO DVDR04 unit.

The new receipe call is like this:

AD-500 vs. AD-1500 vs. iLO-DVDR04

And I will present them (images) here.

I wouldn't mind testing the Component ports, but I don't have the cable
for these. I don't even know what they look like - probably 3-heads

.. In my previous response, I forgot to mention that I feel that there
.. are other 'lesser screws' in the mix of things. I just wanted to get that
.. out, case there were other finds. I feel that there are other little
.. glitches to mention, but because they are as strong in impression, I hadn't
.. commented on them, yet. I may mention them later.

-vhelp 3207

[gshelley61]

An update on the DVR-220... I've had a chance to use the machine for a few weeks now and have a couple of things to report. Fist of all, the Pioneer makes a great looking recording. Sharp, detailed and accurate. Nearly as good as the JVC in recorded image quality.

A couple of comments on the video input adjustments... they are VERY mild and do not offer the kind of range necessary for color correction and restoration work. For video sources in very good shape that could use a very small tweaking of contrast, brightness, color, hue or detail - the adjustments do work OK for that.

For anything that needs more help, you really will need a proc amp like the SignVideo or Elite Video units. I also think an outboard detailer like the SignVideo DR-1000 is something very much worth having in the signal chain. The Pioneer's input black level adjustment (that adjusts for 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE sources) does work very well and is a really nice feature, though.

The Pioneer has this same black level adjustment feature for playback output, as well. In fact, the Pioneer is an excellent DVD player as far as I can tell. It does a great job, especially in the interlaced output mode. I found the progressive scan picture to be slightly soft.

One other thing - if you have the player section set for 0 IRE black level output (I do because my display expects that); when you record, the signal that is passed through to the display is not likewise stepped down to 0 IRE - it comes through at 7.5 IRE (same as the source) instead. So, it makes adjusting the picture a little tricky because the actual recording will be at 0 IRE (like it is supposed to be) and will appear darker when played back. This is only an issue if you are using a 0 IRE display and have the playback section of the recorder set to 0 IRE. For a standard 7.5 IRE television (with the player section running at 7.5 IRE output), it looks the same.

[vhelp]

So far, my expereince has also been a positive one. And FWIW, I haven't
returne my iLO so far. I like it. But, I like how it sends the OUTput
of it's 'dvd recorded' source to my ADVC-100 or when I re-record from it.
Anyways.

One thing I have an issue with, is its:

** IRE vs. Black Range (ie, 0-255 vs. 16-235)

Currently, I'm not sure if they are both the same, or not. In fact, its
an area I've been studying, and have trouble with duplicating via an
equation or formula (there are many variations in the formulas, which
have been driving me crazy these past few months now, in a tool I've been
slowly sculpturing, though another story on its own) Anyways.
.
But, i'm wondering if the IRE level is the same as Black Range level.

** IRE 0 = lighter color (in RGB color space, IS it 16-235, hence
the missing blacks ?? -- I wonder )

..or..

** IRE 7.5 = darker color (in RGB color space, its 0-255, full black)

-vhelp 3231