Pioneer DVR-220 video recording test

[gshelley61]

Hey, here is a quick THX test pattern comparison between the Pioneer DVR-220, the Panasonic E55, and the JVC DR-M10 DVD recorders. As in my other tests, I used a Panasonic A320 DVD player set to 0 IRE black level output as the s-video source. The Pioneer and the Panasonic were both set for 0 IRE input black level, and had all other noise reduction and picture enhancements/adjustments off. The JVC has no input and output adjustments (but is apparently set at a fixed 0 IRE input black level by design). All three were recorded in the highest quality 1 hour (XP, Fine) mode. Again, each recorder was sent exactly the same s-video signal and was set up to record at the highest quality possible to ensure the best clarity and detail from the copies made.

Frames were grabbed with Power DVD from the THX test disc, and from each of the three recorded copies made by the DVD recorders. I resized the frames to 640x480 (4:3) and saved to .JPG with Irfanview.

Luma (contrast) pattern from the original THX DVD test disc:


Pioneer recording, input 0 IRE and VNR "off", Detail "off", etc.


Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


JVC DR-M10 recording



Right away, I'm liking this Pioneer unit. It looks pretty good...

Anyway, here is the next test pattern -

Black level (brightness) pattern from the original THX DVD test disc:


Pioneer recording, input 0 IRE and VNR "off", Detail "off", etc.


Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


JVC DR-M10 recording



The Pioneer and the JVC frames are both closer to the original THX test pattern image than the Panasonic recording is, and the clarity and detail of both the JVC and the Pioneer are very good.

Next pattern...

Multi-purpose test pattern from the original THX DVD test disc:


Pioneer recording, input 0 IRE and VNR "off", Detail "off", etc.


Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


JVC DR-M10 recording



Yes, the Pioneer makes a mighty fine copy! I'm impressed so far. Very close to the original image, plenty of detail and clarity, black level and luma are good... there is a bit of pixel cropping on the left and right frame edges (more on the right), and the image is shifted to the left a bit, but the geometry is fine.

Here's the last test frame...

Ice Age clip from the original THX DVD test disc:


Pioneer recording, input 0 IRE and VNR "off", Detail "off", etc.


Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


JVC DR-M10 recording



Based on what I see so far, the Pioneer DVR-220 is definitely worth considering. The recorded image from the Pioneer is nearly as sharp and detailed as the JVC recording is, with just slightly less luma. Plus, the Pioneer has a bunch of really cool input and ouput adjustment features the JVC does not have. On the input side alone there is an adjustable 3D Y/C comb filter, video noise reduction, variable detail enhancer, white (luma) auto gain control, manual white level control, manual black level control, source black level setup for 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE, hue (white balance) and chroma (color level).

It will take me some time to go through all the features the 220 has to see how effective they are, but at least at the basic level the Pioneer is a strong performer in the Fine recording mode.

[zorankarapancev]

gshelley61,

For the Panasonic recordings you should use 7,5 IRE on the player side. Regardless of the "lighter" and "darker" internal settings, the 0 IRE will never give you the correct recording. That is how this recorder was design for our market and we should use it accordingly. If you don't have any other intention but to show what will be the best way to record with each of these recorders, you should give them the fair test conditions. In that case your presentation will be impartial and it will be of benefit to everyone in our community.

[gshelley61]

gshelley61,

For the Panasonic recordings you should use 7,5 IRE on the player side. Regardless of the "lighter" and "darker" internal settings, the 0 IRE will never give you the correct recording. That is how this recorder was design for our market and we should use it accordingly. If you don't have any other intention but to show what will be the best way to record with each of these recorders, you should give them the fair test conditions. In that case your presentation will be impartial and it will be of benefit to everyone in our community.

OK, I'll give that a try.

go here...

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1233860&highlight=#1233860

[leo_canada]

Thanks a lot for your informative and very useful posts!
This is the type of information that makes this forum great.

Now, if you could also test one of the LiteOns (5005 or 5045)
and compare it to the Pioneer and the JVC...

Thanks again.

[celso_java]

Plus, the Pioneer has a bunch of really cool input and ouput adjustment features the JVC does not have. On the input side alone there is an adjustable 3D Y/C comb filter, video noise reduction, variable detail enhancer, white (luma) auto gain control, manual white level control, manual black level control, source black level setup for 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE, hue (white balance) and chroma (color level).

gshelley

I loved both JVC and Pioneer pics. As a newbie it seemed to me Pioneer is a bit darker than JVC. You said Pioneer has a lot of adjustment, so is there a way to make it a bit lighter becoming closest to the original?

Pioneer seemed to me a good choice for those who want to buy a dvd recorder and can't spend with hardware processors.

Please let us know when you try those features in it.

[gshelley61]

gshelley

I loved both JVC and Pioneer pics. As a newbie it seemed to me Pioneer is a bit darker than JVC. You said Pioneer has a lot of adjustment, so is there a way to make it a bit lighter becoming closest to the original?

Pioneer seemed to me a good choice for those who want to buy a dvd recorder and can't spend with hardware processors.

Please let us know when you try those features in it.

Yes, the Pioneer has a number of input (and output) video adjustment and enhancement features. I'm not sure how much range there is in the various controls, but I will check them out. Most decent sources only need very mild (if any) correction, so the Pioneer may be a good choice for someone who can't invest in more powerful external processors.

The JVC images do have a bit more luma than the Pioneer frames, but they are close. I'm impressed with the image clarity and detail the Pioneer produces... very close to the JVC in image quality.

[mike1061]

Thanks
Mike

[zorankarapancev]

I have few thoughts and suggestions:

The REALITY is that 99% of the people in our REAL WORLD (North America):

- will use their DVD recorders to record TV programs and to convert their VHS tapes to DVD’s

- will use equipment that is compliant with the NTSC standard: 7,5 IRE black level

- will never buy TBC, proc amp or any other electronic aid equipment in order to fix the DVD recorder that is not build under the legal standards in this part of the world

- will never bother to learn how to fix, tweak or upgrade their DVD recorder.

Therefore, I think that in order to conduct any test correctly is to follow these simple steps:

- test the DVD recorder accordingly to the NTSC standards

- test the DVD recorder as is, without altering anything on the INPUT and OUTPUT connectors

- evaluate the picture quality on the NTSC TV screen on XP, SP, LP and FR mode.

- offer the remedies for the models that didn’t perform up to the standards (e.g. incorrect black level, using LP mode instead of FR mode…)

This way we will give REAL LIFE results that will be of great benefit to ALL OUR MEMBERS. So let’s move to more productive work and let’s help REAL PEOPLE who want simple and straightforward advice for their problems. Sometimes I think that we preoccupied ourselves with trivial discussions and tests, with no other reason but ... to make ourselves feel better.

[gshelley61]

Well, since this is a digital video hobbyist forum, I assume that the members interested in DVD recorders might want to use their machines like I do - as a hardware DVD compliant MPEG2 encoder. So, creating MPEG2 files that are at the 0 IRE black level standard is key if you are using a DVD recorder for that purpose, otherwise the finished DVD's will not look right when played back on a typical DVD player.

NTSC standards are going to be completely abandoned in the near future anyway. The TV station I work for already is transmitting 2 different ATSC digital signals (our regular SD and HD programming, and a separate 24-hour local weather channel). We eventually will be shutting down our analog NTSC transmitter altogether. The NTSC 7.5 IRE standard is a relic from the past that is being phased out. You keep saying 7.5 IRE is the "legal" standard. You are failing to mention the other 18 (!) ATSC digital formats that are not only "legal", but are in place and actively on the air in many cities - and all of them are 0 IRE black level.

You say that 99% of people will be recording TV and VHS to DVD... then that makes my point. Somehow that 7.5 IRE black level should be stepped down to 0 IRE or the resulting DVD will not be correct. That's probably OK for a general consumer who won't notice the difference, but we are supposed to be video enthusiasts here. Learning the proper standards to apply to your digital recordings and DVD's is important, especially because that is our future in North America... not the old analog 7.5 IRE standard which will soon be extinct.

[lordsmurf]

See my last post in the IRE thread. We're all fighting a losing battle. None of the source is ever correct, none of the captures/recorders are 100% correct. We need to just make sure we take advantage of the brightness/contrast/black controls found on the DVD players and tv's. The goal of IRE needs to be damage control. Be sure your recorder/card doesn't hose the video too badly. While some want to disagree, Panasonic is probably the most vile recorder there is, when it comes to goofing the signal. Pioneer, JVC, etc ... maintain it pretty well.

[mike1061]

I have few thoughts and suggestions:

- test the DVD recorder as is, without altering anything on the INPUT and OUTPUT connectors

This is the first thing you said I don't agree with. I would like to see tests done without altering AND with altering.
See, I'm watching this thread trying to decide what to get. I would be happy if someone were to run tests, and then figure out the proper settings of the mechines. I'm stating that I do not know 1/10th of what you do. That is why I read these threads.
Thanks Mike

[zorankarapancev]

This is the first thing you said I don't agree with. I would like to see tests done without altering AND with altering.

I agree with you 100%!

That is why I also said:

- offer the remedies for the models that didn’t perform up to the standards (e.g. incorrect black level, using LP mode instead of FR mode…)

I think that only this way we can have the unbiased, complete and standardize system of testing that anybody can easily follow and understand.

[mike1061]

Thanks I didn't understand that. I do appreciate all of your input.
Mike

[ann coates]

gshelley61, I really appreciate your work on this, however, I'm rather confused and don't understand all this technical IRE stuff. When you did the test on the Panasonic the first time it came out very dark, then when zorankarapancev asked you to do a second test with different settings the picture came out truer to the original.

So which one is accurate for the average user buying one of these machines?

[lordsmurf]

then when zorankarapancev asked you to do a second test with different settings the picture came out truer to the original.

Not really. It was still too dark and the chroma was shifted quite a bit.

[ann coates]

then when zorankarapancev asked you to do a second test with different settings the picture came out truer to the original.

Not really. It was still too dark and the chroma was shifted quite a bit.

I agree it was still a bit too dark, yeah, but it was much better than the previous one. The second one was close to the Pioneer pic to my eyes. But my question is which one could people expect to see if they used the machine in their regular setup? The darker one or the lighter one? That's what I didn't follow.

[NightWing]

Nice test!

Rather have a recorder that has darker blacks. When I did my test between 220, DVDR04 and the Liton. It made me more impress with the 220. The 220 just works!

May want to try some split screens. Can show thing a bit better some times. Drove my self crazy until I split the two and did it as one picture.

[gshelley61]

The "darker" input setting is the default on the Panasonic machine, and intended for NTSC 7.5 IRE black level sources (analog broadcast TV and cable, VHS, 8mm, Hi8, laserdisc, etc.). The "lighter" input setting is intended for recording 0 IRE sources (MiniDV and Digital8).

The Panasonic comes from the factory pre-set to the "darker" input setting.

[celso_java]

gshelley

Does pioneer model records in dvd-rw as video mode or only vr?

thanks.

[Marvingj]

As I have said Pioneer is super in picture quality. Also I notice that the JVC is a Tab Lighter than the orginal THX. But the Pioneer seems to consistent with the Clip. Panny is still do its thing with the signal. I truly believe that if you test Lite-On you will be surprise concerning its great picture detail.

[sync]

Does pioneer model records in dvd-rw as video mode?

yes

[NightWing]

Catch is from what I have seen. There are different chipset used in different Litons units.

Hum. Some where in a thread labled 5101 or somthing did some vs pictures between the 220 and the one of the litons. Been a bit.

[Brent G.]

I would definitely like to see the test done with the LiteOn 5101, especially the grayscale levels test.

[NightWing]

Actualy the black level is a bit darker on the 5101 than the orginal.

Found the old thread...
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242351&highlight=5101

The 5101 vs shots are found near the end of the thread.

[NamPla]

Thanks for these terrific threads, GShelley. It seems obvious to my eyes that the JVC & Pioneer win hands-down in the quality stakes. Panasonic comes nowhere close!? I don't see what all the argument is about, actually?

[gshelley61]

Yes, even if the Panasonic black levels were not an issue, the image is a bit softer than the Pioneer and JVC recordings, and is stretched horizontally slightly.

[NightWing]

Yes greate breakdown on the three units!

[vhelp]

I liked the 220 (based off from threads I read from NightWings'
and XYscaling's pics post - Pioneer 220 vs. Liton 5101 units)
And the 5101 was so close, but the 220 (based on dark scene pic
from NightWings dvd ?? - name of movie escapes me though) and
the 220 matched the DVD color tone. He had provided a pic (which
I liked) that incoporated a split scene..

The pic originated from this topic, which I followed - NightWing's response:
--> Lite-On DVD Recorder Model: 5101 at Sams for $139 any good?

Here is my iLO DVDR04 pic from NightWings test, originated from the above post..

ORG dvd pic vs iLO DVDR04:


..and his test pic from above post, but for the 220 model:

ORG dvd pic vs Pioneer DVR 220S:


But, what I'm confused with, is the model number. I saw references
like 220; 220S; and 220U elsewheres. Perhaps I'm seeing things or they
were typos. But all I do know is there is only one, and it's the
Pioneer DVR-220 and I'm assuming those pics are from the DVR-220 model
.
But, what I don't know, is the DVD player he used in the above pics.
I'd like to test the same scene, but with my Apex AD-1500 player, but I
don't know the title of the movie those pics are from

I think I was was more sold on the Pioneer DVR-220 vs. the JVC DR-M10
because of the split screen pics demonstration. It truely showed the
differences. I think it would be interesting to see a pic from gshelley61's
favored JVC DR-M10 unit of this same pic
Until then, I'm sold on the 220 beging the true duplicator, as far as
DVD to DVD Recorders go

-vhelp 3156
EDITED: - 02.26.05.pm - by vhelp

[Brent G.]

NightWing,

>>Actualy the black level is a bit darker on the 5101 than the orginal.
Found the old thread...
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242351&highlight=5101
The 5101 vs shots are found near the end of the thread.<<

Thanks for the thread. If you look at the comparison of the blonde woman titled "Org vs 5101 EP" near the bottom of the thread, you'll see the original (her neck) is pink and the 5101 has made her face yellow. (It's the jauntice look I was referring to in my other post) It would be more evident if the face was vertically split in half rather than just on her neck. Also the original fence shows a light aqua blue and the 5101 shows slight greenish blue under the ledge and on the post (shadow areas).

Now if the scene was from one of the Matrix films where there are a lot of dimly lit light blue or grey scenes, the 5101 will show a "green fog" background which I find very annoying. I guess it would be ok in the Hulk movie (did anyone like that movie btw??), but the green shadows is something I can do without. I wish LiteOn would hurry up and fix it. Did they have this problem with their other recorders?

[gshelley61]

I'm wondering if those ILO test pictures are lighter than the source simply because it may not adjust the black level down by -7.5 IRE when recording 7.5 IRE sources? The Pioneer does just that (it has a input black level control that is set for 7.5 IRE sources by default). It looks that way to me, since the white level appears to be OK in the ILO recording. Only the blacks look wrong.