Worst Encoding Ever - DS9 - what to do?

[akrako1]

Hey all... I'm looking to back up my Star Trek: Deep Space 9 series. Here's the problem... the factory encoding is HORRIBLE! The worst I've ever seen. These aren't copied DVD5 discs - but the original DVD9 from the factory. Features on people's faces seem to float and lag behind facial movement. You can see plenty of compression artifacts whcih all seem to be related to movement - the part of compression that 'tracks' the same pixels as they move across the screen (I guess). I'm not seeing any blocking or detail problems in general - just the weirdness when people's faces move. I'm viewing these on my new HDTV, but I think I'd have seen the problems on my old crappy tv.

Here's the problem... I'm looking to back them up, and I typically use DVD Shrink. I've heard that the 'tranccoding' process that Shrink uses achieves more compression by changing the compression related to motion. Is this true? If so, I'd imagine using DVD Shrink would be disasterous. Anyone have any other recommendations?

[Cornucopia]

It won't get BETTER with transcoding, it'll get (somewhat-varies) worse.

I'd ask for my money back.

Scott

[akrako1]

Well of course it won't get any better - I'm just hoping to not further degrade the quality when I backup.

[Gurm]

Can anyone verify this? Perhaps it's the discs. Have you read a review of them at one of the many sites that rates DVD releases and breaks down video quality?

Perhaps it's your player. It's hard to believe that something like Star Trek (where the fans are all nerds - no offense intended I'm a member of that group) with encoding errors.

[BJ_M]

for keeping the quality the same - split the disks is all ..


DS9 consistantly gets great reviews for video quality ..

many in fact

here is one http://www.lethaldeath.com/Crimson/Archives/ResidentDVDvil/Archives/RD_STDS9_Season4.php

another

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=6586

[canadateck]

This Is somthing that I have noticed on my HDTV a few times even watching TV , Why it happens I dont know ,Maybe somthing to do with the processing of the signal.Thats just a guess.

[wulf109]

I backed up DS9 with excellent qaulity. Perhaps your disks are Chinese bought off ebay?

[akrako1]

Hmmm... They look legit. I bought them at Best Buy some years back... I'm not sure about the quality of these discs is general. My JVC DVD player won't even play half of the original discs, but thankfully my DVR-320 will. When they'll play on the JVC, I've noticed the problem when playing on either dvd player. One is hooked up component (progressive), one s-video. Has anybody else viewed these discs on a HDTV? Just wondering...

Back to my original question, IF the discs do have problems with the motion-type compression, would it be bad to use DVD-Shrink? I've gathered from other discussions that something using CCE would do a better job..(?)

[Jestak]

Greetings,

I backed up some of my DS9 (and other episodes disks) and I used DVD clone to keep 2 episodes per disk (yes, 2 DVD-5 disks per DS9 disks. You an use nero to cut off or VOBblanker. I have no quality loss at all.

For your other question, DS9 episodes quality is good and got good ratings (Contrary of Voyager who is awful). However, on any HDTV, they will look blocky because the television will try to "upscale" the resolution.

I have a Sony KV-HS420 and all my tv episodes don't look great. Only the movies DVDs look good when they are 16:9 and only through the component branching (or composite, I am talking about the 3 cables separating the colors).

Thank you

[vitualis]

Perhaps different region?

I've watched many Star Trek DVDs and I can say that (the ones I've seen at least) both Voyager and DS9 discs in Australia (R4) have very poor encoding quality. At times it almost looks like a captured version of VHS.

Regards.

[BJ_M]

Perhaps different region?

I've watched many Star Trek DVDs and I can say that (the ones I've seen at least) both Voyager and DS9 discs in Australia (R4) have very poor encoding quality. At times it almost looks like a captured version of VHS.

Regards.

maybe they give you dvd's made from the PAL tapes (analog) that they send to the stations - instead of from the digital masters scanned from the film .. if so you should bitch , cus they look great here ..

[BJ_M]

or you are buying asia bootlegs and dont even know it ..

[manono]

Hi-

Jestak almost had it right (although I don't think he understood why) when he said, "I have a Sony KV-HS420 and all my tv episodes don't look great. Only the movies DVDs look good..." Almost all of those sci-fi TV series DVDs (because of the mix of both 24fps film and 30fps video) and many other TV series DVDs are encoded as interlaced, whereas most movie DVDs are encoded as progressive. You can confirm this by opening vobs of each in DVD2AVI (DGIndex) and running the Preview. Your DS9 vobs will show as NTSC/Interlaced, and a vob file from a movie will usually say FILM/Progressive.

This isn't a problem with standard interlaced TV sets, but can be a big problem for people with progressive setups (Progressive Scan DVD players feeding progressive displays such as HDTVs). The vast majority of Progressive Scan DVD players are pure flag readers. What this means is that when the DVD is encoded as progressive, with the proper flags set to output 29.97fps (such as for most Hollywood movie DVDs), the player can detect the presence of those flags and return all progressive frames. Even the cheapest Progressive Scan DVD players can do this. However, when the DVD is encoded as interlaced, without the progressive flags, the player reads it as being interlaced, and will deinterlace it. And depending on how it deinterlaces, you'll get the blending/ghosting/double images that you're seeing.

There's not a whole lot you can do about it, except for buying a better DVD player, such as one with the Faroudja chipset, which can perform an IVTC on the fly, so to speak, and also return progressive frames. Rather than being a pure flag reader, it's a cadence reader, and can spot the telecine and undo it. If you watch a lot of anime TV series DVDs, or other TV series DVDs, it might be in your best interests to invest in such a player. Players that can do this start at around $150, and those with Faroudja deinterlacing start at around $200.

There may be a couple of things you can try. If your DVD player gives you a choice of deinterlacing methods, try the other ones out. Or output 480i to the TV and let its deinterlacer take over to see if it's any better. For your DS9 DVDs, and others like it, make sure to turn off your TV set's FILM Mode.

I haven't seen the DS9 DVDs, but there's also a chance that BJ_M is correct in speculating that these are created from a PAL master. If true (although not likely, if this is an American TV show), then they come already blended. To confirm that you'd have to have some AviSynth knowledge and separate the fields to have a look.

You might take the DVDs to a friend's house who has a regular old interlacd TV set and play them to see if you spot the same motion artifacts on his set. I'd bet that you don't.

[akrako1]

Thanks manono, and all you others for the replies. I'll try it on a non-hdtv, and I'll let you know what happens. I've been watching the DVD's thru my DVR-320, which I have hooked up via s-video - which is not progressive - and still shows the problems.

To verify that my copies are not bootlegged, I ordered a few DS9 discs from Netflix - and they play the same. I'm assuming that Netflix is only buying legit discs, but you never know....

[vitualis]

or you are buying asia bootlegs and dont even know it ..

No these are the real McCoy. Rented from local video store and from BigpondMovies (Aussie online DVD rental system).

Regards.

[SaSi]

The Original series and The New Generation DVDs in PAL version for Region 2 play fine. Don't really have a taste for DS9 so I only rented a disk (S1-D1).

Video quality was equally good played back on a 42" plasma and on my PC. (Didn't really enjoy the plot though - appears to me like a cheap imitation of Babylon 5 - which incidentally I don't particularly enjoy)

[manono]

Hi-

I've been watching the DVD's thru my DVR-320, which I have hooked up via s-video - which is not progressive - and still shows the problems.

Yes, but since your TV is progressive (right?), then it's taken over the deinterlacing. It has to be made progressive one way or another.

The Original series and The New Generation DVDs in PAL version for Region 2 play fine. Video quality was equally good played back on a 42" plasma and on my PC.

If so, then maybe the R1 DVDs really are a bad PAL to NTSC conversion. If so, then they'll look equally bad on an interlaced TV set, as they would be blended at the field level. Again, a knowledge of AviSynth could confirm that.

[manono]

After reading some reviews, the quality of the DVDs evidently improved after the first season, but for the most part, the reviews of the picture quality are pretty good. Some reviewers noted that the picture was a bit softer than they would have liked, and some noted some compression artifacts (blocking) in dark areas. No sign of anyone thinking them to have used a PAL master. So, I'm back to thinking it's most likely your player/TV set's deinterlacing that's at fault. Again, checking on a friend's interlaced TV set might help to diagnose the problem, or with someone that has a better Progressive Scan DVD player than you do. If you gave the brand and model number, I may be able to find out some information on it.

[vitualis]

Well, I'm comparing the DVDs against all the other ones that I have on the same DVD player and TV.

Perhaps that's what it is (soft + artifacts in dark), but to my eyes, they don't look very good. I distinctly remember being somewhat surprised by the (relatively) poor quality of the video the first time I watched DS9 on DVD.

Regards.

[Jestak]

Greetings,

Manono, thank you for the thorough explanation. You pointed me in the right direction. I noticed the same thing with ALL my tv shows dvd (DS9, babylon-5, Lexx, Roswell) and I preferred to watch them on a 4:3 Panasonic.

I am connected through component and the Sony has an interlaced mode and normal mode. I will try each mode and with a S-video connector. I can't imagine the Sony television can't do something to make the image better. I'll post a msg on agoraquest, I always had an answer there related to HDTV and let you know here guys.

Thank you
P.S.: I always had all the answers related to DVDs here. I am always amazed how much internet can bring knowledge. "People know everything, we just have to talk." said a known person in Canada.

[Cornucopia]

"People know everything, we just have to talk." said a known person in Canada.

And listen.

Scott