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  1. Panny E55 DVD recorders have been going for cheap lately on eBay, so I got one to check out. I wanted to see if there were any improvements over the E50 I used to have, plus I figured it may be worthwhile to compare it to my JVC DR-M10.

    Cosmetically, the E55 looks nicer than the E50 and has a bigger display. The DVD recording setup menu and adjustments appear to be the same, except there is now an input video noise reduction filter that can be turned on and off. The black level selections on input and output are the same as the E50.

    THX test disc playback through the s-video output (set to "darker" to pass 0 IRE), the E55 has a somewhat lighter picture than my Panasonic A320 DVD player (also set to "darker" s-video output), and is also a bit lighter that the JVC DR-M10 s-video output (which is fixed). Moving on to recording, I used exactly the same methods and settings as the DR-M10 tests I did about a week ago... I used my trusty Panasonic A320 DVD player s-video output as the source (set to "darker" for 0 IRE black level)and recorded the THX DVD test patterns and the Ice Age test clip with the Panasonic E55. I captured in XP mode to DVD-RAM (VR format) three different ways... first, with the video input set to "darker" (which is the default setting, intended for 7.5 IRE sources like VHS and NTSC broadcast signals) and the video input noise reduction "on". Then I recorded the same thing with the video input noise reduction "off". Finally, I recorded the tests patterns with the E55 video input set to "lighter" (which is intended for 0 IRE sources like MiniDV) and the video input noise reduction "off". As before, no video processors or enhancers of any kind were used... the source is straight from the A320 DVD player s-video output.

    As with the DR-M10 tests, I grabbed sample frames directly from the original THX DVD test disc, directly from the DVD-RAM recorded on the Panny E55, and directly from the DVD-RW I recorded with the JVC DR-M10 using PowerDVD, then resized the frames to 640x480 (4:3) and saved them to .jpg with Infranview. Let me mention that I had no problems at all extracting and working with the .VRO MPEG2 files from the DVD-RAM recorded with the E55. Sometimes I had trouble with the .VRO files I had recorded in the past with my E50.

    Here we go...

    Luma (contrast) pattern from the original THX DVD test disc:


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "on":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "off":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


    JVC DR-M10 recording



    Obviously, the "darker" input black level setting on the Panny E55 is not intended for a 0 IRE source... it is way too dark. The input video noise reduction feature does work, as you can see the two frames with the filter set to "off" have a bit more grain. The Panny recording with the input video black level set to "lighter" is still darker than the original THX DVD source disc. The JVC DR-M10 recording is the closest to the original.

    Let's move on. Here is the next test pattern -

    Black level (brightness) pattern from the original THX DVD test disc:


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "on":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "off":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


    JVC DR-M10 recording



    Again, even with the input video black level set to "lighter", the E55 recording is significantly darker than the original THX DVD test disc. The JVC DR-M10 recording is much closer to the original.

    Here's the last test pattern...

    Multi-purpose test pattern from the original THX DVD test disc:


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "on":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "off":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


    JVC DR-M10 recording



    Again, the JVC recording is closest to the original (although a few pixels are cropped at the left and right edges of the frame). Notice something unusual about the Panny E55 recordings... the image is stretched horizontally. The vertical lines don't line up with the original as you move out from the center of the recorded test pattern. The JVC does not have this problem.

    Last set of frames, the Ice Age test clip...

    Ice Age clip from the original THX DVD test disc:


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "on":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "darker" and NR "off":


    Panasonic E55 recording, input "lighter" and NR "off":


    JVC DR-M10 recording



    OK, so I hate to sound like a broken record... but is there anyone out there still convinced that the Panasonic is superior in image quality to the JVC? The Panny recording is darker, softer, and significantly less defined than the JVC recording. That's obvious. The JVC recording is simply much closer to the original image on the THX DVD test disc, no matter how you look at it. Like I have been saying for months, if my Panny E50 had performed better than the JVC, I would have kept it. This E55 is no better than the E50, as far as I can tell.

    I need a DVD recorder that captures MPEG2 video that is as close to the source image I send to it as possible. The JVC does that for me.

    FWIW, YMMV
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  2. I tried to do a similar test...But the JVC failed because of the loading problem. So yes, there are those of us who still find Panasonic superior!

    You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning. Please stay on topic, which in this case, is about video quality of certain equipment. Almost every one of your posts has only served to bash users and equipment, often off topic, known as threadjacking. While you have been given much leeway in the past, that will no longer happen. Please stay on topic and be civil.
    / Moderator lordsmurf
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  3. Originally Posted by jrh1194
    I tried to do a similar test...But the JVC failed because of the loading problem. So yes, there are those of us who still find Panasonic superior!
    The loading issue can fixed by a simple and free repair by JVC, even if your unit is out of warranty. Mine has not exhibited this problem, but if and when it does I'll gladly have it serviced and keep it. That is not the subject of this thread. Recorded image quality is what the focus is here.

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy for all the Panny owners who like their machines. That's great. Rock on.
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  4. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I've posted it before, and I'll post it again:

    After much research it has come to my attention that Panasonic is simply darker than it should be on encodes. That's the sole reason so many Panasonic fans think other machines are "too light" when it comes to image quality.

    I suggest that Panasonic has NEVER EVER fixed their IRE problems. What they have done to "correct" the issue is to allow the user to augment either the gamma or the luminance. Not the IRE. The results of such a change is that, while the "black level" is put to a darker tone, so are the lighter colors and whites. Furthermore, augmenting in this method would likely give the false appearance of "richer" colors, as darkening an image gives false ideal of "enriching color".

    When you augment luminance, and do it incorrectly, you often end up with "green shades" instead of black/gray shades, as is VIVIDLY and BLATANTLY obvious on the sample images above. It is also the sign of a horrible MPEG encoder. My theory is the DVD recorder uses a variation of the often-disliked Panasonic software MPEG encoder.

    That really solves some of the mystery of Panasonic image quality. A lot of it is false, and gives users false impression of other machines that can truly do a better job.

    There are a couple tricks that can help you minimize the damage (the the TIPS AND TRICKS thread), but it will never 100% correct these machines, not until Panasonic decides to entirely re-design the units from the ground up. They simply messed up so many years ago, and have been too lazy to fully correct their years-old mistakes.

    The result is a wholly inferior line of machines. Every model is this way. From the oldest of the old, to the newest of the new.

    "New age" equipment like JVC, Pioneer and LiteOn are better choices, when it comes to maintain quality, in terms of clarity, color/IRE/contrast quality, and noise-free encoding.
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  5. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    What I want to know is:

    * which disk has the test files, and
    * how did you extract them from your disk (method)

    I want to run similar test, but with other units and things.

    I have the Ice Age 2 disk set.

    Thanks,
    -vhelp 3124
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  6. If you rip the Ice Age DVD with DVDShrink, you can re-author a DVD-R of just the THX test patterns, along with the 4:3 test clip from the movie (they're all in one file, I think). It will be an exact duplicate of the original since there is no compression required, and it will be copy protection and region encoding free.

    The THX test patterns are on the same disc as the movie. I think they are accessed in the Set Up or the Special Features section of the menu.
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  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    You could also use DVD DECRYPTER in IFO mode and re-author a special disc for yourself.
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  8. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Sorry guys. I use SmartRipper. When I rip (for test purposes) I use the
    chapter mode, because the scene(s) that I do use for my tests practices are
    usually within the chapter selected for smart-rip'r.

    I don't use dvdShrink or decrypter -->

    Thanks again,
    -vhelp 3125
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  9. Oh, a couple more comments about the E55. The DVD-RAM recordings I made on the E55 (in XP mode) played back on my JVC DR-M10 with no problem at all. Also, the DVD player section of the E55 is very good. It has a nice, sharp and detailed picture through the composite, s-video and component outputs. The MPEG playback noise reduction filter works pretty well. However, my old Panasonic A320 is still a better DVD player for overall PQ than the E55 is (even though the A320 is not a progressive unit).

    Of course, no analog video output DVD player I've come across matches the PQ of my Bravo D1 upscaling DVI (digital video output) player. :P
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  10. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    @ gshelly61

    I used my tool on your pics (just the first set of square ones) ...
    .
    I found that your DR-M10 was pretty close to the original (as you inidcated) and I
    understand more so, you argument with its output quality capabilities vs. other
    units of name brands etc.

    As for your panns pics, I wasn't sure which one to pick. I think that the
    your fourth pic showed best quality (though dark as you indicated)

    I was just thinking, that your pics above could be used as a test guage (should I
    get *any* dvd rec) and perform similar tests from it.

    I'm also curious as to the quality of these units (any) when it comes to DV
    hooked up to them and recorded. Not the dv captured from satellite or other
    sources, but rather, home footage sources. I'm curous to see how the MPEG-2
    handled processed on these units w/ pure Interlace. I"ve seen how Procoder
    and TMPG does (when in the hands of skillful users) come out.
    .
    Some of the units come with DV inputs, so you can record directly from your DV CAM.

    Thank you for running them. In all the caos of video madness, every bit helps.
    We would all probably benefit for a more exhuastive *pic* comparison of other
    name brands, and no-name brand units. And then archive the pics. But not do
    any compression to jpeg (png would be best) anyways. Just a thought.

    -vhelp 3126
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  11. The E55 (and E50) do not have a firewire input. The JVC DR-M10 does, but I almost never use it. When I did test recordings in the past from MiniDV using the both DV input and the s-video input (from the s-video output of my camcorder) the results were practically identical. Using the analog input allows me to adjust for color, contrast, brightness, etc. using a proc amp, while the DV stream input can't be altered that way. You can't adjust or EQ the audio input when using the DV stream, either.

    However, it is food for thought... I'll probably try some kind of test to compare DV vs. analog input.
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  12. OK - one more thing before I head out for the day... I have a Pioneer DVR-220 DVD recorder on the way, so I will post my findings on that unit when I get the chance.
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  13. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    Excellent Post, I was going to purchase the E-55 but the JVC beats it ( better picture Quality). But I was concerned about the Loading Problem on JVC. I would love to see JVC vs Pioneer or LiteOn. Same initial Test. Great Post Again!!!!
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  14. Originally Posted by Marvingj
    Excellent Post, I was going to purchase the E-55 but the JVC beats it ( better picture Quality). But I was concerned about the Loading Problem on JVC. I would love to see JVC vs Pioneer or LiteOn. Same initial Test. Great Post Again!!!!
    See above...

    Once I sell off the E55, perhaps I'll try a LiteOn for grins.
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  15. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    @ LS

    I respect your first post - I do. Your point about the IRE in some units is
    very understandable, and they also explain the differences between each
    units final output quality.. just as they are for VHS and there respective
    issues.

    I am curious to see how cheap'os do. El-Cheapo no-name brands with the given
    pics as in the above here. I'm almost decided upon picking up one from W.Mart
    today ( I'm heading out now - though running late to finish this post )

    And, I want to post the same results, so that at least we can get an idea of
    the level of quality to expect, even from no-name brands, when we do finally
    decide to purchase one a DVD rec unit.

    .. I'm sure there are many applications ful-fulling the needs for this VHS
    .. replacement. I can think of a few already.


    I'll try and do some more research on that (ice age) test disk, to see if I
    can find the VOB file that outputs these patterns, and I'll post the VOB name,
    unless someone finds this out first and posts their findings here B4 me

    Ok. I'm out on my errands. See you all later.. be good.

    -vhelp 3127
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  16. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I want to run these tests too on my LiteOn 5001, and some machines owned by friends. I just don't have the same test patterns (no Ice Age DVD). Somebody I know probably does, so I'll have to make some calls and run around a bit to get it. I'll add some soon (start new threads, please). My problem right now is time ... I have some big projects that stacked up on me while I had hardware failures, have to address those first.
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  17. Just like to post I am very interested in these tests. Right now I am trying to choose between the panny, jvc, and pioneer. These tests will help to make my decision easier.
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  18. When DVDShrink reads the Ice Age movie DVD, and you click on the Re-Author tab, here is what you will see listed and what they are:

    Title 1 - widescreen movie
    Title 2 - full frame (4:3) movie

    Title 3 - 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment logo
    Title 4 - THX digitally mastered logo
    Title 5 - "this film has been formatted..." 4:3 message
    Title 7 - THX audio tests
    Title 8 - THX video test patterns (includes Ice Age clip)
    Title 9 - THX 16:9 test pattern
    Title 10 - additional THX test pattern (not sure what this one is for)
    Title 11 - dvcc logo

    If you author a disc with just Title 8, you'll be all set. It only runs a little over one minute in length, so I pause on the various test patterns for a while during playback to get a good encode of each pattern with the DVD recorder.

    The specific DVD player you use as your source will determine how good the s-video signal you send the DVD recorder will be. You want to use a DVD player that is known to have a very good s-video signal (an accurate, detailed image without artifacts like Y/C timing problems, etc.) Turn off any playback noise reduction filtering the unit may have, as this will likely soften the analog video image. Depending on the specific player, the "Fine" output setting will generally provide the most clarity and detail for recording purposes, and will approximately replicate the sharpness and definition of the encoded digital image from the source DVD.

    Also, it is important to send the DVD recorder a 0 IRE black level signal from the DVD player. That is what the encoded black level is on commercial DVD's. If the DVD player you use is sending a 7.5 IRE black level signal to the DVD recorder, your copy will be too light (unless the DVD recorder has a black level input adjustment that is intended to compensate for 7.5 IRE sources like NTSC VHS, laserdisc and broadcast signals).

    Many DVD players have a black level output adjustment so that 0 IRE can be passed through the composite or s-video outputs for modern televisions and displays that can handle true video black (and blacker than black) signals. It is usually called the "darker" output setting on players that have this feature. Component video outputs on DVD players are already set at 0 IRE and generally do not need adjustment. TV's and displays with component inputs are designed to handle 0 IRE black levels.

    Keep in mind that there is some variability in the video signal levels, image clarity, definition, color and tone in all these different machines; even in the same brand name family. Try to keep as much consistency in your testing methods as possible. For example, in my case the source DVD player will remain my Panasonic A320 set the same way regardless of the DVD recorder being tested. That's the only way to have a relatively fair comparison between the different recorders... the source video signal fed to them must be identical.
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  19. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    @ gshelley61

    Hay, thanks.

    UPDATE.. I just got an iLO DVDR04 recorder, and noted it elsewheres
    for reference.

    Also, again.., thanks for your detail steps on the (ice age) disk.
    Can't wait to try it out. Got it right in front of me.

    Gosh, so many things to do, and so little time. And I'm glad I love it

    -vhelp 3129
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  20. Cool. I think I remember seeing a few test frames from an ILO many months ago, and they were light compared to a Panny (?) recorder that it was being compared to. It was probably being sent a 7.5 IRE black level video signal, while the Panny receiving the same signal had it's input black level set to "darker", which might explain the big difference between the two recorded images I saw.

    The ILO is a +R/+RW machine with VR format encoding, right? Let us know if it is VBR or CBR, too.
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    ILO is a LiteOn clone. It is CVBR (constrained VBR), to DVD+VR spec, and the recorder lightness can be affected by the 3-hour hacks (the old 1163 ones, at least). Using standards modes, it may have a slightly lighter gamma (maybe), but the IRE is correct.
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  22. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    @ gshelley61

    I only just hooked everything up to my JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U,
    and then ran my GR-DVL820U cam to it via the recorder's firewire
    input port (seems to be only INPUT) (not an INPUT/output) Anyways.
    .
    I was very pleased with the brief test result I made, using the dvd+rw
    disk it came with.

    Briefly Speaking ...

    The color level on this unit did not change, from the feed, after playing
    back the test DVD. I was (IMO) spot on. That is a plus in my book..,
    and I set for worse case scenario, EP 4hr mode.., and I was still taken,
    for a first test. I'll have to do a more though test, and post my review
    of this new unit in a separate thread. fwiw, I'm very please at its
    performance already. Anyways. Back on topic.

    Test pattern on (ice age) dvd disk ...

    After a search, it can be found on disk 1, Title 8, Chapter 2.
    All remaining THX test screens are all under Title 8 so far.
    I'll rip T088/C02 and see if I was correct.

    -vhelp 3130
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  23. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Start a new thread, and put all your review/results in there. Though many like this unit, you'd be the first one to do an in-depth review with reference images. More than just talky-talk.
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  24. I'm pretty sure when you do a DV stream capture to a DVD recorder via firewire that black level is not an issue like it is with analog capture. If I'm not mistaken, MiniDV and other digital formats are all 0 IRE to start with, so conversion to DVD compliant MPEG2 should result in a 0 IRE finished DVD. Definitely start the ILO test thread so we can read about your impressions.
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  25. How did you do these tests without anything between when DVDs are copy protected?
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  26. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by samijubal
    How did you do these tests without anything between when DVDs are copy protected?
    If you carefully read back through the thread, it describes using the DVD "ICE AGE" and extracting the test clips with ripping software. Then author a new DVD with these clips (probably as menu backgrounds). Look back several posts, gshelley described the full process.
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  27. If you don't own the Ice Age DVD, there are many others that have exactly the same THX Optimizer video test patterns and audio setup tones on them. Monsters Inc., any of the Star Wars DVD's, etc. Of course, the test clips are from those movies.
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  28. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gshelley61
    If you don't own the Ice Age DVD, there are many others that have the THX Optimizer test patterns on them. Monsters Inc., any of the Star Wars DVD's, etc.
    Hey! I have Star Wars (who doesn't?) ...
    .. I'll look at tests sometime soon.
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  29. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Revision to my Test pattern find, mixed into a receipe ...

    After smartripping around w/ the (ice age) disk, I found where it was at.

    STEPS TO AUTHOR YOUR OWN 'TEST PATTERN' DVD DISK:

    * APP: Smartripper
    * MOVIE: Ice Age
    * RIP: --> vts_04[42MB]\Title 11\Angle 1 (get all chapters)
    * CREATE: a video_ts folder on your harddrive (unless your author app does this)
    * RE-AUTHOR: to new VOB file (using your favorite author app)
    * DUMP: the VOB file in the video_ts folder
    * AUTHOR: to blank DVD/RW disk

    * After you complete the above process, and have new disk, pop it into your
    .. prefered DVD player, and proceed to play it.

    * With your DVD recorder hooked to your DVD player, proceed to record the
    .. 'TEST PATTERN' video. You can use which ever your aim is for, Composite
    .. or S-Video.

    * After you've recorded from your DVD recorder, and have your video_ts ready
    .. disk, proceed to open the VOB file in your MPEG-2 editor, and take a snap shot
    .. of the same pic(s) you want to compare with.

    - Feel free to revise the above receipe.

    For now, you can use the above pics (on page 1) as a guage or reference
    against yours, to observe for any difference in quality. (you gotta start
    somewheres)


    I guess, the rest is up to you as far as setup goes

    EDIT: - 2.19.2005
    .. Just remember, that the above is for convenience sake. It's much easier to pop in a
    .. ready-made dvd test disk, rather than having to find all the test pattersn and things
    .. on the original disk, (ie, through a mountain of VOBs and Titles and things, oh my)


    -vhelp 3131
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  30. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    Thanks Vhelp, For the help on the Disk. I will now compare Pioneer 310 to Sony 310. I'll Post soon as I give it a good run.
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