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  1. The E-50 was a better machine than the E-55. Up until the E-55 almost every chip in the machines was made by Panasonic, not in the E-55. Just running my satellite signal through the machine severely degraded it. They cut too many corners on the E-55.
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  2. That's seems odd. It seems to me the E55 is an E50 with a couple of improvements and better cosmetics... remember, I had an E50 for about 6 months, and used it for a couple of months before checking out the JVC. Why would Panasonic release a DVD recorder inferior to the one it replaced?

    Anyway, as I've said numerous times, if you are happy with the Panasonic, then that's all that matters. Opinions are opinions. Highly subjective. I like the JVC. I like the Pioneer, too. They seem to do a better job than the two E55's I have now, and the E50 I had last year. It's just one person's observation. I've pointed out what I believe are the strengths of the Pioneer and JVC machines from my perspective, that's all. Obviously, others feel differently and say so. No one is saying anybody is a "dummy" because thay have a different opinion. But it does seem people take things personally when they are not intended to be personal.

    Just for the record, some of the things said by several Panny fans have been pretty insulting, too. There has been some stone throwing from all sides here... just keep that in mind.
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  3. Member ejai's Avatar
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    I disagree, the tone from especially Lordsmurf has caused insults from both sides. He has made it known that if you do not see what he see's you are a misinformed amateur who has no credibitilty and your observations should not be noted but overlooked.

    Gshelly61, you have not come across (especially in my opinion) as a know it all but as someone who is truly trying to help. I may not agree with all your findings but I respect your presentations.

    It is not what is said here, it is the tone in which things are said. Personally I don't care, I will continue to give my opinions and will sort out information that is positive to me.
    Do unto others....with a vengeance!
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  4. Originally Posted by gshelley61
    That's seems odd. It seems to me the E55 is an E50 with a couple of improvements and better cosmetics... remember, I had an E50 for about 6 months, and used it for a couple of months before checking out the JVC. Why would Panasonic release a DVD recorder inferior to the one it replaced?
    Equipment getting inferior to previous models is nothing new, it's called competition. Panasonic has to compete with companies selling recorders for less than half what theirs sell for. Look at VCRs, they have steadily declined for well over a decade.
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  5. Originally Posted by ejai
    I disagree, the tone from especially Lordsmurf has caused insults from both sides. He has made it known that if you do not see what he see's you are a misinformed amateur who has no credibitilty and your observations should not be noted but overlooked.
    Agree 100%, this isn't the only such thread. It's his way or the highway.
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  6. VCR's have declined in price and quality due to lack of demand. DVD players and recorders have been getting better and cheaper due to enormous demand, technological advances and economies of scale (just like computers).

    I don't think Panasonic needs to reduce the performance their DVD recorders at this point in the product life cycle in order to compete. They have over half the market share and generated more profit from DVD recorders than any other company. Plus, with their head start in the technology, their machines should by rights be the most advanced and the best value. Companies that are now just getting into DVD recorders should be trailing Panasonic in both areas.
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  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    ejai, the problem with videohelp, as you mentioned yourself, is the site audience (largely newbies) is so far up Panasonic's butt, that if you even attempt to talk about another recorder, you get swarmed by "Panasonic, Panasonic, Panasonic" chanters. We have the same situation with Canopus DV devices too. "The bestest ever!" But many of us readily see flaws, quality issues, and other unacceptable idiosyncracies.

    While some people like Panasonic, others of us cannot figure out why. It's expensive (you're paying for name only, much like Sony), it's dark, it's luma is shifted, and it turns into almost solid blocks once you leave 2 hours of recording. The "IRE correction" is false too, as it mucks up gamma/luma along the way, not just an IRE correction. I didn't even tests to tell you that.

    Pretty much every machine looks the same in 2-hour mode. Panasonic is alright here, but once you leave that zone ... poof! .... crap. Other boards (especially some of the more private ones) easily recognize this flaw.

    People always have some complaint about other machines being "not sharp" or "too light" ... etc ... and I'm of the opinion that you're basing this opinion off of a flawed "neutral" stance (being the Panasonic, which is dark and grainy, therefore of course it's going to give off that comparative observation).

    Panasonic also has a color quality issue, but again, darkening an image will give off false perception of "color depth". This is basic art/photography knowledge.

    Finally, samijubal, your continual claim that "the E55 is different" is sadly just not true. Panasonic has been using the same base design on its chips since day one. I see this as a lame attempt to discredit this thread as a "Panasonic-wide" quality issue.

    So yes, I disagree with what you say, and that's why. You can disagree with me too, that's fine. The "insulting tone" is ill-perceived, probably just because we're saying something you don't want to hear.

    Lots of people slam the Toshiba for IRE issues, and I warn people about it too. It exists. But oddly, I've seen some Toshiba DVDs that were just fine, in addition to many that were not. Go figure.

    I was reading over at avsforum.com just last night. There's not any love for this machine there, nor any other. Lots of honest reviews, and lots of issues with these "sacred" Panasonic recorders. Over there, people constantly talk about blocky Panasonic recordings, darkness and color loss.
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  8. I tried an E-55, I took it back. The picture from my satellite was degraded badly just running through the machine. I've used an E-10, E-20 and E-50 connected to the same equipment, and the degradation is barely noticable.
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I don't know how you (or anybody else) can claim an E10, E20 or E30 gives a "superior" anything. The picture is not only the wrong IRE, but it tends to have super-hot whites/lights. It totally obliterates part of the signal. Even if you pump the tv set down really dark, and augment IRE settings on a good DVD player, you've still lost part of the upper range of the image. It's just toast.
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  10. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Lordsmurf, I agree that in some cases the Panasonic becomes somewhat blocky after 2hr recordings. Yet the JVC is overly smooth throughout, and the sharpness is hampered by this. I have made many recordings over 2hrs using the Panasonic and the quality was very good.

    I don't have a problem with the JVC's durablility anymore because the 2nd one I own (I sold the first one) has never given me a problem. I even leave it on unattended all night.

    The AVSforum also has issues with the JVC M10, I know this because I've read some of their threads. I've also given my opinion as well. Some have even wrote about how this forum is too much in love with the JVC M10.

    Both machines have issues and I believe both sides should be heard. I would not recommend either machine because they both need some improvements. Most of us have been able to find work arounds, and some people might not care at all. I've been asked to recommend a model and now I just say wait a few more months.

    I am waiting for the next generation of recorders to arrive in the coming months. I plan to buy one and I am sure we all will be pleased at the upgraded technology in the Panasonic's as well as the JVC models.

    Again I would not recommend either recorder.
    Do unto others....with a vengeance!
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  11. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    As to the test sceraios ...

    You might want to consider the something here, that all these tests are based
    on a single DVD player scenario. Not to mention, that in every instance of tests
    from these units, only one DVD player was named (to my knowkedge) and the pics
    were demonstrated respectivefully from this poster, and I believe them to be
    true represenstataions based on this one user. However.
    .
    Therefore, I have condluded that in addition to my theories, that results will
    vary from dvd recorder to dvd recorder, and from dvd players to dvd recorders,
    to dvd player to dvd recorders
    .
    And, there are still, yet other test scenarios and w/ other video source
    mediums to be tested with. And, as long as there are no consistancies
    with test scenarios across the board, then how can you accept w/ 100%
    accuracy that everything presented is accurate ?? You can't. Just chew, and
    swallow what you can, and move on
    .
    So, even when I find an issue (call it IRE) with some sources initially, in
    a few minutes, it won't matter anymore. All's it'll take is a few minutes of
    watching your recorded program, and you loose yourself in the movie/show..,
    just as it was intended for.

    These kinds of threads/topics serves for interestings facts and tid-bits
    of a given scenario or two. Sometimes they help out a lot. And, sometimes only
    a little. And, I offer my two cents (theories) worth when I can. Doesn't really
    matter too much. It's just good to know somethings that aren't at your finger tips,
    but that you can put under your belt, for later use maybe. You never know.

    Keep these tests going guys

    -vhelp 3162
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  12. Good points, vhelp. Ultimately it is about enjoying the program/movie/home video that has been transferred to DVD. My methods and attempts to "get it right" without the aid of sophisticated professional studio gear are getting me closer to the results I am looking for, but are not perfect by any means.

    Still, I have to say I am very pleased with the outcome of some of the projects I've worked on. No doubt others feel the same way about what they've produced. We are all here to share our observations and techniques to do the best we can with the equipment and time limitations we have.

    Sometimes the discussions get heated and feelings get hurt, but let's remember that we share a common interest and should not allow momentary squabbles elevate into personal attacks. Agree to disagree and remain civil about it...
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  13. This is the result gshelley61 posted with an E55 using an A320 source at 7.5 IRE Output, Input = Darker (E55):






    This is the result I obtained with an E80H using an RP82 at 7.5 IRE Output, Input = Darker (E80H):

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  14. As I said before… something went definitely wrong with the E55 recording...
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  15. The E80H test definitely looks better. I used two different E55 units (a black one and a silver one), and the results were identical. Now I'm starting to wonder if the E50 would in fact do a better job than the E55 as some have suggested...
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  16. Member NamPla's Avatar
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    Man, these tests are jumping around to all different conclusions!

    I am waiting for the next generation of recorders to arrive in the coming months. I plan to buy one and I am sure we all will be pleased at the upgraded technology in the Panasonic's as well as the JVC models.
    I think that's the best advice here! :P
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  17. It appears there is an explanation for why the Panasonic recordings look a little soft in my test frames... it has to do with PowerDVD. For some reason (maybe the Panasonic's 704x480 capture size?) PowerDVD frame grabs of my E55 and E50 recordings look a little softer and less defined than they really are.

    If VirtualDubMod is used to grab MPEG2 frame samples instead, the Panasonic images look much better in terms of sharpness and detail than what is seen in my postings of the PowerDVD frame grabs. In fact, the frame sample recorded with an E80 and posted by Tom Roper above looks pretty good...

    The macroblocks on longer recordings and black level issues are stilll there, but at least the clarity of the Panasonic captures is not a problem.

    I don't have the E55 or E50 on hand anymore, but if I get hold of another Panasonic I will re-do these comparison tests using VirtualDubMod as the frame grabbing tool.
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  18. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Finally, samijubal, your continual claim that "the E55 is different" is sadly just not true. Panasonic has been using the same base design on its chips since day one. I see this as a lame attempt to discredit this thread as a "Panasonic-wide" quality issue.
    There is alot more to a DVD recorder than 1 encoder chip, open one up and look inside. Maybe 1 chip is still the same, that doesn't mean that the recorder is the same. Connect different recorders to a high quality source with a high resolution TV, differences are pretty easy to see.
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  19. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    @ gshelley61

    Now you know why I was suggesting consitancy (and hopefully, standard)
    in tests, and also, why I suggested the use of vdubMOD in these tests

    One day, I will try and produce what I consider a standardized test
    disk (for all to use) when discussion new (or used) device capabities
    ect. Then, others can follow, or run their own test (using the above
    standardized test disk) in there own equipment, and the chances of
    any taint will be eliminated. Well, you understand. Anyways.

    Just keep passing the word, ..use vdubMOD in such tests.

    -vhelp 3272
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  20. I agree with gshelley61.

    I have an E50, an E55 and a JVC DRM1.
    The E50 seems to have better build quality to me, and definitely better recording quality ( much more macroblocks with the E55, even at 2hrs ).
    The JVC is better than both though, for S-Video recordings.
    I've confirmed this with my own eyes many times, one of the disadvantages of owning more than one machine!

    Just my opinion though!
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  21. I've been reading these forums for a long time. Much longer than my account status would indicate. I am a proud Panny E50 owner/user.

    My position, and likely that of many others, is simply that the Panny does a reasonable job good enough for the averagae user watching on an average TV set.

    From my reading, I have determined that there is definitely an elite or limited set of users that wish/desire/require above average performance.

    Personally, for spending under $1000, I don't expect or require professional quality, 100% accurate recording.

    My setup allows me to switch easily between PVR and DVDR inputs and I have yet to perceive any difference. I am not saying that there isn't any, nor am I saying that it is better/worse than any other sub $1k unit.....

    The majority of my recordings are weekly tv episodes with manual commercial editing. I therefore run extended play mode (6 hours) and am perfectly satisfied with the results. The odd block of colour doesn't bother me. It is defintely watchable and I am hard pressed to find stuff that others seems to complain about here.

    This post is really for anyone else reading these forums thinking the Panny is drastically worse/better than other units. If you *need* a professional quality system then spend mega-bucks or really research the units based on a kazillion posts here.

    The *average* person is likely to be happy with any manufacturer. A huge step up from a VHS tape.
    In most (average users) cases, the other features of the unit are likely to be more important (ease of use, warranty, editing, storage, formats, etc). The 5% that are nit-picking can continue arguing.

    Again, this isn't a flame one way or the other, not everyone has the same set of standards and I suspect that the majority couldn't care less.
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  22. Originally Posted by do9999
    I've been reading these forums for a long time. Much longer than my account status would indicate. I am a proud Panny E50 owner/user.

    My position, and likely that of many others, is simply that the Panny does a reasonable job good enough for the averagae user watching on an average TV set.

    From my reading, I have determined that there is definitely an elite or limited set of users that wish/desire/require above average performance.

    Personally, for spending under $1000, I don't expect or require professional quality, 100% accurate recording.

    My setup allows me to switch easily between PVR and DVDR inputs and I have yet to perceive any difference. I am not saying that there isn't any, nor am I saying that it is better/worse than any other sub $1k unit.....

    The majority of my recordings are weekly tv episodes with manual commercial editing. I therefore run extended play mode (6 hours) and am perfectly satisfied with the results. The odd block of colour doesn't bother me. It is defintely watchable and I am hard pressed to find stuff that others seems to complain about here.

    This post is really for anyone else reading these forums thinking the Panny is drastically worse/better than other units. If you *need* a professional quality system then spend mega-bucks or really research the units based on a kazillion posts here.

    The *average* person is likely to be happy with any manufacturer. A huge step up from a VHS tape.
    In most (average users) cases, the other features of the unit are likely to be more important (ease of use, warranty, editing, storage, formats, etc). The 5% that are nit-picking can continue arguing.

    Again, this isn't a flame one way or the other, not everyone has the same set of standards and I suspect that the majority couldn't care less.
    well put
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  23. Please tell me what program you use to get those HQ screensamples!!!
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  24. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 8t88
    Please tell me what program you use to get those HQ screensamples!!!
    Try VirtualDubMod.
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