TMPG - No Layer 3 (MP3) Sound

[MrNatural]

I have used TMPG (TMPGenc Plus v.2.510.49.157) to convert hundreds of variously-formatted films to VCD. As of the last few weeks though I have ran into a problem. None of the films with MPEG layer 3 sound (no AC3 - I have AC3 Filter or AC3 Decoder that takes care of those) that are converted come out with any sound. I realize that for layer 3 sound, you need an external program with TMPG. I'm not trying to get layer 3 though, and layer 2 sound is fine for me. Somehow I think either something has changed with my TMPG program, or possibly it's some codec problem (another symptom is that before the actual encoding starts, when I now try to convert a film with level 3, it hesitates about 2 minutes or so after pushing start and when the encoding actually begins) What has led me to believe that I have some kind of problem with the program or somewhere else, is that last night I tried to encode one of these films with a couple of different programs. On both of them (WinAvi and Main Concept), the program automatically switched the sound to layer 2. I'm thinking that quite possibly my TMPG must have been doing this (automatically switching layer 3 to layer2) previously too. I've tried to encode probably 12-15 films since this started, and about 9 out of 10 are layer 3 sound. The hundreds of films that I have previously successfully converted couldn't have all been layer 2. This 9 out of 10 ratio of layer 3 to layer 2 couldn't have just started happening overnight. I have been using Goldwave and VirtualDub to convert the sound to .wav format before encoding with TMPG for these last films that wouldn't have worked without doing so, but after seeing last night that the other programs don't require this, I thought I would ask for help from those who know more about it than I. I could use those other programs, but on both of them, I could not find any way to change the bitrate, so that I could fit a whole movie on just one disk (the one last night was 869Mb at 1150 kbits/sec. bitrate).
Another cause I was thinking of is some kind of codec problem maybe. A couple of months ago, I thought a problem I was having might possibly have been caused by a codec conflict, and I got rid of some codecs plus my ffdshow. I have since reinstalled the ffdshow. I think my VFAPI environmental settings in TMPG are configured ok, if that could be a factor (direct show at top with a "2", and the rest are zeros, except AVIVFW compatability reader at "-2"). Could anybody be of help on this?

[bugster]

VCD does not support mp3 (layer 3) audio. All your conversion will have been to mp2 (layer 2). Your source files may have had mp3 audio, but TmpGenc would convert them.

[MrNatural]

Yes, I understand that , but the problem that I'm having now is that TMPG is not converting them anymore for some reason like I believe they were being converted. I have gotten TMPG to convert properly, of late, when I've added subtitles to a film (layer 3 source) and frame-served from VirtualDub to TMPG, but just loading a layer 3 (or MP3) to TMPG, it won't give me sound anymore.

[reboot]

Rip the audio with virtualdub to .wav
Use the .wav in tmpgenc.

[MrNatural]

Yes, I've been doing that, as mentioned in my original letter, but in the last 1 and 1/2 years of encoding many films with TMPG, I have not had to do this. Maybe I didn't explain my problem very well. I have probably used TMPG to convert close to 200 films of various formats to VCD in this period (of the approx. 1000 disks I've burned in this period - I bought a DivX player early on, so didn't need to convert that many after that) and, except for the occassional AC3 that may have caused some extra processes, I had no problem with the conversions. Although I never paid any attention to it, I'm sure that many of these 200 were layer 3 (or MP3) sound. I believe that when the source file was layer 3, TMPG just automatically switched it to layer 2 for the output - just like the 2 encoding programs did I mentioned in my original letter. I may be wrong, but I don't really have a way to check this. It just seems highly unlikely that, all of a sudden, 9 out of ten films require converting the sound to .wav first before using TMPG.
I've tried reinstalling the same version and a different version of TMPGenc Plus, but keep getting the same results. Something's wacky in there, because when I first reinstalled the program, the same 869Mb film. that referred to in other letter, was now, when trying to adjust bitrate to fit it on one disk, showing it's size to be over 2000Mb! Other films did the same thing - showing to be about 3 times their real size. Trying various cures, I found that when I unchecked some Quicktime plug-in in the VFAPI environmental settings, it then solved that problem. I then uninstalled the whole Quicktime program and also a Real Player program which I had installed a month or so ago. Suppossedly, they were needed for another program to function (Worldwide TV). That did not help the original problem though. I'm kind of figuring that I'm not gonna get an answer to resolve this problem, unless someone else has had the same malady, as it may be too obscure - but thank you for the help, and thank you in advance of any future stabs at it.

[ZippyP.]

TMPGEnc will work with MP3 audio, just not VBR MP3 audio.

[MrNatural]

I admit to having to look up what VBR means. I am not using a variable bitrate. I made a template that I have used with TMPG and it's set to constant bitrate.

[ZippyP.]

TMPGEnc cannot handle VBR MP3 audio in a source avi, you need to extract it to wav first. Virtualdub will give you a VBR warning when you try and load such a file.

[MrNatural]

Oh yes, I know the warnings you are talking about. I would get them sometimes when using VirtualDub for adding subtitles - frameserving to TMPG. In that process, I could disregard the warning and proceed with no noticeable ill effects in the final product. When encountering this warning when splitting/joining an .avi, however, I've switched from the regular VirtualDub to the VirtualDub MP3 Freeze (as the guide I originally used said this needed to be done. But again, for just regular encoding to a VCD, I've never had to use VirtualDub first - except in the last month, where I now have to use it on just about every film. Let me ask you - If you were to convert an avi file to VCD format with your TMPG, and the .avi had layer 3 sound, would it go ahead and convert the film, but with layer 2 sound, or would it not work, and you would have to convert the sound first with VirtualDub or another program?

[sanjayk]

Try this - increase the priority of "DirectShow Multimedia File Reader" under VFAPI plugin in TMPGEnc so that it reaches the top of the list. Then ecnode your avi file.

[kyemeng]

What is your stream type in the Setting/Audio tab?

[MrNatural]

MPEG-1 Audio Layer II

Also - to Sanjayk: My Direct Show is already at "2" and at the top. I even took it up to "4" and tried it, but didn't help

[bugster]

It just seems highly unlikely that, all of a sudden, 9 out of ten films require converting the sound to .wav first before using TMPG.

Maybe, but possible. If these are downloaded divx type movies, the use of VBR MP3 in these seems to be on the increase in my experience.

Something's wacky in there, because when I first reinstalled the program, the same 869Mb film. that referred to in other letter, was now, when trying to adjust bitrate to fit it on one disk, showing it's size to be over 2000Mb! Other films did the same thing - showing to be about 3 times their real size.

That is typical of what happens when TmpGenc is presented a source file with VBR MP3 audio. Maybe you were just lucky in the past. Listen to ZippyP, extract the audio to wav 1st, or always frameserve from vdub as that corrects the issue too!

[MrNatural]

Maybe you are right. I know this problem is something I can work with at least. I did just load the 869Mb movie previously mentioned into VirtualDub, and it, indeed, does have the VBR audio. What perplexes me is that this is the same movie, that when I loaded it into 2 different encoding programs (Main Concept MPEG Encoder and WinAvi Video Converter), it was automatically switched to layer 2 sound, and then successfully converted to VCD with no problems. You said

Your source files may have had mp3 audio, but TmpGenc would convert them.

Does that mean TMPG, also, when the source file is MP3, will normally (maybe as long is not VBR) go ahead and convert them, but as level 2? If the answer to this is "yes," then mine is not doing that anymore (I believe). If the answer is "no," then, as you said, maybe I've been lucky (it seems to me, that I couldn't be that lucky though, but who knows).

[MrNatural]

Well, I did some tests, and answered my own question about how TMPG is suppossed to act - about automatically changing it from layer 3 to layer 2 sound, or not. The answer is that "Yes, it does automatically encode layer 3 sound in the source to layer 2 in the output - BUT, as was said, VBR sound does not get encoded like that, with the result being a movie with video but no sound.
After reading a post with a quite similar problem, that mentioned he had success by uninstalling Canopus and Main Concept programs, as well as some codecs, I also uninstalled both of those which I also had installed (but rarely used). I also installed a program called Codec Sniper that has a column that tells if a codec is broken. Finding I had 2 broken ones (although one was from the canopus program which I had just uninstalled) I deleted those, plus another one left over from Main Concept. I then uninstalled and reinstalled my original copy of TMPG and found that it now worked as described in the introductory sentences. I wish though that I would have earlier done the test that I did to get those results, as I'm not sure whether uninstalling that stuff actually made a difference. I did find though that most of the films I was trying to encode indeed had the VBR sound. It was surprising that it was so many. No wonder I was having so many problems trying to use TMPG, and it very well may be that, for whatever the reasons, currently more downloaded films have VBR audio - or it could too be just a long bad streak. I still don't know why the 2 previously-mentioned programs I used, went ahead and automatically switched the layer 3 to layer 2, and successfully encoded my test film which wouldn't work on TMPG. It definitely had VBR audio. One would have to conclude that, at least in this respect, they were better than TMPG. Perhaps, if these 2 companies can accomplish this, it is something that TMPG could also incorporate into a future version.
At least I know how this program is supposed to act now, and I thank those that clued me into the VBR aspect of it.

[sanjayk]

TMPGEnc is known for not recognizing VBR MP3. However recently I tried to encode one avi to mpeg and noticed that thre was no sound. GSPOT indicated that the audio was VBR MP3. I increased the dshow priority in TMPGEnc to highest and then tried again. And vola ! there was audio but of cource encoded as MP2 which is the default for TMPGEnc. The same thing I suggested to MrNatural but it didnt seem to work for him. Strange !

However if you want MP3 audio to be encoded by TMPGEnc you have to use an external encoder and define it in the "Audio Engine" tab. I use LAME.EXE as the external encoder.

[MrNatural]

Aha - Eureka. After reading sanjayk's post (which is all the way from India. It never ceases to impress upon me what a colossal tool the Internet is), he mentioned that he solved the same type of problem by changing the priority of DirectShow in TMPG's VFAPI plug-in section of "Environmental Settings." Unfortunately, I have had my TMPG adjusted like that from the start. But I did infer from his message (whether correctly or incorrectly) that after this correction, he was able to successfully encode his film, which had as a source MP3 (also called MPEG layer 3) sound which was also VBR. It was not necessary for him to convert the sound to.wav before encoding, and that the TMPG program automatically converted the MP3 sound to layer 2.
Even though, through what was explained to me, I understood what would trigger my TMPG to act up, I just had a hard time swallowing the fact that after encoding a conservative estimate of 200 VCDs with TMPG in the last 18 months, and never having this problem before, that now I was going to have to do this extra step of converting the sound to .wav before encoding a film to VCD (or, at least the majority of them would require this). So I kept searching and trying various things that might correct the situation. I tried this program that reinstalls all your WMP codecs and reinstalled my DirectX after reading some article. This was no help. What did do the trick was uninstalling the FFDShow I was using, which was their latest version (build 20041012) which I had reinstalled in Dec. After doing this, all the same films that wouldn't work before, now worked fine. They were MP3 with VBR and they were automatically converted to layer 2 sound with no conversion to .wav beforehand. I then reinstalled their newest version (20050216) of the FFDShow (as I still think it's a good program), which just came out a couple days ago, and it continued to work fine after that also. I guess there was something in that version I was using that conflicted with a codec or something in my system. I would like to thank everyone who gave me assistance. I would also suggest to anyone that is having to "pre-convert" their sound under the same conditions as this, to look into a codec/program conflict in their computer. If you are doing a good amount of encoding or working with films in general, you don't want to add any unnecessary labor, as it already takes up a good deal of time as it is.
LATER THAT NIGHT: The new version caused the same problem too. Uninstalled it and worked properly again. Gonna have to go without this until can maybe figure it out. That may never happen though, as would take a long time, seeing that I don't understand 1/2 the stuff in that program.

[MrNatural]

One more bit of information I thought would pass on concerning this for anyone else experiencing this problem - and I have learned, since writing the 1st post on it, that, indeed, a few others have had this same dilemma. The FFDShow is definitely the culprit here. I suspect that it is because those of us that contract this, also have some other codec or program, or combination thereof, that conflicts with the FFDShow. After reading this thread (the post am referring to is by the bottom) on a different site, http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/codecs_and_filters/ffdshow.cfm *EDIT on 3-14-05 - The article does not seem to be at this url anymore. Sorry, couldn't find it
I also tried the version (20040828) that poster went to, as I had problems with the latest one and the 20041012. It's been a couple of days now and still is working OK, so am thinking this one may do the trick. I might be able to do without it, but I think I have a hole or 2 in the vast array of codecs one may need when working with a broad assortment of old and new, foreign and domestic films.

[karris56]

I had same problem and did all you did but wanted to keep new FFDSHOW build so I uninstalled and reinstalled but unchecked the mp3 audio option cause I thought there might be a conflict with lame or ac3 since audio was only thing not working.Everything works fine now.Just thought you might want to try if you want to use FFDSHOW

[MrNatural]

Thanks for the input karris56. I am using FFDShow, the 20040828 version that had mentioned in previous post. It is an older version, but it still works ok. As mentioned, had problems with the 20050216 (was the latest version at time of writing - Note that these numbers are just dates - YearMonthDay) and the 20041012.
[Incidentally, when I go to their site (SourceForge) now, what they have available now is quite different. 2 of the 3 that I used before (20050216 and 20040828) weren't there, and it is a little confusing to me what the deal is. There are various versions available on other sites of the internet though, including a version compiled by someone else dated 3-12-2005 at http://<a class="contentlink" href="http://www.free-codecs.com/download/FFDShow.htm" t...FDShow.htm</a>. ALSO, the article from the web address that I referred to in previous post doesn't seem to be there anymore.]
You said that you are using the "new version," which is working o.k., and attribute it working to unchecking the mp3 audio option (I'm assuming that was in TMPG's "Environmental Settings">"Audio Engine"). For whatever the reason, I don't think that will work for me, as I have no programs such as Lame, and have never had that option enabled. Why it is working for you, and I had trouble with it, I do not know. When you say "new version", is that the 20050216?

[karris56]

I have ffdshow version 20050312.Got it from freecodecs.com the place you were at.I have tmpgenc and main concept encoders.Never had a problem with either until I downloaded new ffdshow.When I tried to convert in either program it would freeze 30-60 seconds than encode very fast.Picture would be great but no audio even tho GSPOT and AVI CODEC reported no problems.Since it was just audio I remembered seeing an option in ffdshow while downloading in video formats and audio formats to use.Most were already checked as default.So when I reinstalled I unchecked the box for mp3 because the files I was trying to convert were xvid with mp3 audio.And no it wasnt anything in TMPGENC.The problem is in ffdshow and the sound.Try unchecking that box and maybe even the box for mp2.The point is fiddle around.Since your problem is identical it might work.It only takes a couple seconds.Oh yeah and when you uninstall FFDSHOW it might leave an ax file in the program folder.you might have to reboot but delete that file before you reinstall.

[MrNatural]

I think I understand what and where you're talking about now. Like you said, it's not in the TMPG > Environmental Setting > audio layer 3 (or Mp3) section, but a check box found during the installation process of FFDShow. Like said, the version I am using now is working o.k., but I think I will, at least, install the 20041012 version to test out if doing what you did will also correct mine. I'm going to guess that there's a pretty good chance that it will work, as your description of your problem is the same as mine. I had that version installed previously and experienced the "no sound" problem, so that one will be a good one to use for testing. I accessed the audio configuration section of the FFDShow version I am using now, and see that the mp3 is disabled there. I can't remember if I checked that option during installation, or if I even had that choice, or if it's disabled by default with this version, but that may be why this version is working o.k. Will post my results after trying this. Thanks for the info.