TMPGEnc vs Cinema Craft

[xycer]

i just want to know if CCE has the same encoding audio problems that TMGPEnc has. Should i extract the audio to WAV with virtualdub for Divx/Xvid files for CCE too? or does CCE not have problems with encoding audio?

also, how many passes do you think i should do and whats better, VBR or CBR?

[thomseye]

I guess I'll tell you what works for me...

I use VDub and frameserve to CCE. I encode the video at VBR 9 Pass for optimal quality.

As for the audio, I export the wav from VDub and work on that separately in my audio editing program.

I then multiplex the two streams in mpeg2vcr.

good luck!

thomseye

[guns1inger]

I use a similar process, although I don't go above three passes. Diminishing returns means that the extra hours produce little or no improvement.

I demux the audio in virtualdub to uncompressed wav, then load it into Vegas and output as 2 channel AC3.

I tie it all together in DVD Lab Pro and burn with Copy-to-DVD.

[xycer]

well im currently doing just 2 passes VBR and ill see how it turns out. Anything higher than 2 passes will almost take as long as TMPGEnc.

few more questions as this is the first time ive encoded with CCE.

1) the estimated file size for CCE, does that include the audio file or just the mpv file?

2) when i set the multipass to 2, it does 3 passes, does selecting multipass automatically make 1 extra pass? like if i choose multipass and put in 1, will it do 1 extra pass?

[guns1inger]

If you choose 1-pass VBR from the drop down, it doesn't seem to create the vaf file. I'm actually curious about this, as I would have expected the vaf file (Video Analysis File ?) to be the first pass. So a single pass vbr - no vaf, but a 2-pass vbr gets the vaf + 2 passes. There doesn't seem to be an inbetween.

My process for video is virtualdubmod, add the resize filter and resize and add borders, the add the unsharp mask filter by Antonnio Foranna and Donald Graft. I usually use a setting of +3 in the top setting, instead of the default +5. Frame server this out to CCE and even a 1 pass VBR doesn't look too shabby. CCE does have a tendency to enhance noise if it exists, so be careful when sharpening.

I suggest you try a 1-pass vbr, a 1 pass cbr, and a multi-pass VBR (2 or three passes) and compare output.

[xycer]

i might tomorrow, this is a very large video file and its currently 7am here in cntral canada and i havnt slept yet =].

Thanks for the suggestions.

[xycer]

ok im confused... CCE said the video was gonna be 4.3gb and the audio was gonna be 145mb... i converted it to DVD with TMPGEnc DA and the size of it was 3.76gb, why is it smaller? i forgot to check the size of the mp2 files. Does the estimated file size include the video and audio?

[winifreid]

gunsligner, what is your source for this method. I assume you add borders to compensate for overscan. Why do you use unsharp mask? How much time does this add to the encoding process? Thanks

[lacywest]

I guess I'll tell you what works for me...

I use VDub and frameserve to CCE. I encode the video at VBR 9 Pass for optimal quality.

As for the audio, I export the wav from VDub and work on that separately in my audio editing program.

I then multiplex the two streams in mpeg2vcr.

good luck!

thomseye

For some videos that I've run across that use VBR audio ... which really pisses me off ... I prefer CBR ... instead.

I always had trouble trying to get the audio and the video in sync.

I recently found out if I use Cool Edit Pro 2.0 to extract the audio from the video ... and save it as a PCM wav file and then reinsert back in virtualdub ... the length for the video and the audio is correct.

Yes I did use virtualdub's method of extracting the wav file ... didn't always work as expected.

[simps]

Here is the best way to do DVD.

1) extract audio (i use vegas, goldwave)
I always make 2ch .ac3, so there is more space to the video to make
it the higher possible quality.

2) frameserve the movie with avisynth to CCE
in avisynth you load all your filters for resises, crops, subtitles, etc
Do not envolve virtualdub here, only cce and avisynth. This will
encrease the speed about 300% in some cases.

3) pulldown.exe (i use cce 2.5, so when converting 23.976fps source,
i need to use the pulldown.exe to create the 29.97fps flags. Its best to
to the pulldown later, with pulldown.exe, because you wont wast bitrate
on the extra frame pulldown creates for every cycle, so the encoded
movie will look better.

4) Import .mpv and .ac3 to DVD-LAB PRO (or maestro). (Do the menus, and let the
dvd-lab pro mux the video + audio for you, when creating the DVD.


Well, I dont really know any better way then this for doing a DVD.

This is 100% garanteed to work, and the quality and speed is the best, because avisynth r0x, and CCE 2.5 too.

DVD-LAB PRO, can make the same job pulldown.exe does. So its up to you to use dvd-lab pro, or pulldown.exe to make the flags. (they do the same thing).

Newer versions of cce can detect the 2:3 pulldown, and apply it, but i still wouldnt set it there on cce. I would encode at 23.976 to garantee that the encoder is not using valuable bitrate on the extra frame. And then i would use the pulldown.exe (that work perfectly).
Also, CCE 2.5 seens to give me better looking (less noisey) frames, that other versions.

If you can afford all this great programs, then do it the right way.
If you know a better way then this, let us know!

[]'
Simps

[xycer]

ill give 2.5 a shot... im currently using 2.7.

[xycer]

i wasnt too impressed with CCE, i think im gonna stick with TMPGEnc.

i have a question about TMPGEnc tho... when you go through TMPGEnc's wizard, the first screen you select PAL/NTSC 4:3 or 16:9, if the source video is widescreen, do you even have to select 16:9 or can you just select "fullscreen (keep aspect ratio)"?

[lordsmurf]

TMPG vs CCE posts go back as far as this forum.

[xycer]

If you choose 1-pass VBR from the drop down, it doesn't seem to create the vaf file. I'm actually curious about this, as I would have expected the vaf file (Video Analysis File ?) to be the first pass. So a single pass vbr - no vaf, but a 2-pass vbr gets the vaf + 2 passes. There doesn't seem to be an inbetween.

i see what you mean now... the settings are all messed up for CCE. Before i did multiple pass VBR and i selected 1; it did the vaf+1 pass(=2). I played with the settings and selected 1st pass vbr then i tried mult. pass VBR again and chose 1 again but it didnt do the VAF... (confused). I also tried setting it to 2 and it didnt do the VAF again, it just did 2 passes... isnt it always supposed to do the VAF?

edit: nm, i knew what was causing the problem...

btw, i can do 1 pass with the VAF and im using v2.7

[guns1inger]

Under multipass vbr, make sure create new file is checked, otherwise it will use the existing vaf. I don't bother about overscan because it is a very small area, and usually compensated for during shooting. Even movies usually shoot with overscan in mind because they know it will end up on a TV eventually. The unsharp mask that I use just compensates for the softening that is inherent in a resize, regardless of method, and for the softening from the Divx/Xvid encode. Depending on the quality of the original, you may need more or less work. I estimate it costs me maybe a frame or two a second - worth it for the improvement it adds.

Mt two issues with tmpgenc are it's speed (the speed disparity is not in anyway justified by it's output - it is not three times the quality of CCE, but it does take three times as long), and it's handling of DV input has never been good for me. I used tmpgenc for a number of years before switching across to CCE.

Thanks Simp for your method. I don't use Vegas to extract audio, as it can completely choke on some VBR audio. VirtualDub does a good job at it anyway. I do use Vegas for AC3 encoding though. I use virtualdub for frameserving simply because I have yet to find the time to learn avisynth scripting, and bacuse I like to work in an interactive way when processing. I'm sure once I get some time, things will fall into place.

[xycer]

im still having a tough time deciding which program to use so i still have both installed... my only beef with TMPGEnc is the speed too... it takes too long to do a full divx/xvid movie.

i did a movie with vbr 1pass+vaf and it looked good but around some of the edges on close ups of the faces, there was some wierd movement (cant explain it any other way)... maybe ill try 2passes next time.

Would 3passes with CCE be close or on par with TMPGEnc? i tested on a smaller movie (50mb divx file) and did 2passes+vaf vbr with CCE and i did 2passes vbr (same bitrate as CCE), same audio bitrate etc and with motion estimate with TMPGEnc and CCE was about 1-2 minutes faster.

[guns1inger]

Be careful when judging the output of Dibx/Xvid to DVD encodes when looking for noise. You will inherit any noise or artifacts in the original, as well possibly creating new ones. Look carefully at the original.

[xycer]

oh no, i was just testing speed not quality. As long as i figure out how to use CCE properly and im satisfied with the quality, i think im gonna use CCE instead of TMPGEnc. I already know how to use TMPGEnc since ive been using it for a while but its so slow. Im new to CCE but im gonna try to figure out how to use it right cuz its faster.

i was just hoping some1 else would know how many passes with CCE youd need to match TMPGEnc's quality.

[guns1inger]

It depends on the source. If the bitrate is high enough, then one CBR pass will do. I have used as little as one-pass vbr, and as high as 5 pass. To my mind, 3 passes is the point where diminishing returns kicks in. Any higher and ther (very) slight improvement does not warrent the extra hour(s). To my money, the main work is in the preperation of the source. If that is good, then 2 pass vbr is more than enough to match tmpgenc.

[xycer]

thanks a lot guns1nger... youve basically guided me through everything i needed to know.

[xycer]

btw, what would you consider a high average bitrate? 4000+? 5000+?

[guns1inger]

A high average bitrate would be 7500+, the highest being around the 9800 cbr mark (depending on audio format used). An average of around 6500 will get you 90 minutes of quality video with a 2 channel AC3 audio track.

[xycer]

i did a google seach on when to use VBR or CBR and found that if the video is around 60minutes or less, you can use CBR but if the video is longer than that, use VBR... is that a good way to look at it? I did a movie that was about 75minutes long with CBR 1pass with CCE and it turned out ok (except for the fact that i accidently chose 16:9 when it was a 4:3 movie).

Any input on when to use VBR or CBR would be appreciated. I appologize if this has been discussed before, i tried looking on the forums but couldnt find anything.

[winifreid]

VBR essentially allows more efficient use of disk space while maintaining quality where it counts. So if you have to use less than full bit rate at full resolution (8000 k/s) then you may want to consider using VBR. VBR allocates more bits for complicated action scenes and less to scenes with little movement. I use CBR down to 550 k/s and don't really notice a difference. Try a test sequence both ways and see for yourself.

[xycer]

by 550 did you mean 5500?

[winifreid]

Oops, yes.

[xycer]

thanks for the info winifreid.

btw what program do you use?

[winifreid]

I usually use CCE to convert picvideo avi into mpeg2, but only because it is faster than TMPenc. I don't really see a quality difference.

[xycer]

i ran into another problem with CCE. What do you do for the movies that are anamorphic widescreen? (2:35 etc)? CCE only has the option for 16:9 or 4:3.

[manono]

Man, you really are a rookie, eh? The movie AR (2.35:1, 1.85:1, 1.66:1, etc) has nothing at all to do with the DAR (=Display Aspect Ratio, 16:9 or 4:3). There are plenty of 2.35:1 movies that are 4:3. To answer the question, check the back of the DVD case, or Amazon.com, or IMDB, or a DVD review (although all are sometimes wrong, but not too often). If they just say widescreen or widescreen letterbox, then it's 4:3. If they say 16:9, anamorphic, enhanced for widescreen televisions or some such, then it's 16:9. Having said that, most 2.35:1 movie DVDs these days are 16:9. However, for older DVDs, they can be quite often 4:3.

This applies more to R1 NTSC than to R2 PAL, where a higher percentage of their widescreen movie DVDs are 16:9. But here in R1, we're still saddled with way too many 4:3 widescreen DVDs. The best known perhaps is Titanic, and fans of the movie are screaming for a new 16:9 version.