VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14
Thread
  1. I do not know exactly what the official TBC capabilites are of the current Panasonic DVD recorders, but here is the true story of how a Panasonic DMR-E55S is helping me save a priceless 10 year old Hi-8 tape.

    I have an original (made in a camcorder) Hi-8 tape that is almost exactly 10 years old. Unfortunately the camera that made the tape is no longer around. I believe the original camcorder was a Sony CCD-TR101. The tape has video on it of a multi-generation family vacation so it was VERY important to me. I recently found this long lost tape and attempted to first view it on a TV. I tried to capture it into DV format with a Canopus ADVC-100 and failed. I tried re-recording it with a JVC HRS-9500U S-VHS VCR with TBC and failed. Finally I recorded it with a DMR-E55S DVD recorder and was succcessful.

    When viewing this tape directly from a Sony CCD-TR400 Hi-8 camera to the TV via s-video, the picture "tears" at the top of the screen and bends to the right.

    When captured with the ADVC-100, there are no dropped frames and the picture is corrected, but there are serious audio artifacts in the sound every few seconds. Almost like digital popping or some other strange effect.

    The JVC SVHS with TBC did nothing to correct the picture errors, it actually made it much worse.

    The Panasonic DMR-E55S was able to completely and I mean completely correct the problems with this tape. What I means is, when using the DMR-E55S, you would never even realize there was any problem with this tape. It looks like perfect correction. And the real kicker...you don't even have to record the siginal with the DMR-E55S, it does this correction just passing the signal through the recorder.

    I don't know exactly what I am seeing, but it sure looks a lot like a full frame TBC.
    Quote Quote  
  2. Master of Time & Space Capmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Denver, CO United States
    Search Comp PM
    THanks for the info. It sounds like you're happy with it 8)

    I have an E50 and it handles everything I've thrown at it so far 8)
    Quote Quote  
  3. The JVC S-VHS VCR you mentioned does the time base correction and noise reduction on playback only. When you made a VHS (or S-VHS) copy of the Hi8 tape, the time base errors would have been made worse on the copy (another generation), so they may have been too severe to be corrected by the VCR's built in TBC.

    The input TBC in the Panny DVD recorder is in fact a line TBC, but for tapes (or other input sources) that do not have any copy protection that is often sufficient to get the job done. It's good to hear it worked for you.

    All TBC's (even professional units) were line TBC's until digital memory became smaller and more affordable. That's when TBC's with full frame synchronization and time base signal correction capability were introduced. A side benefit of full frame units is that they completely eliminate all copy protection signals, something line TBC's don't do because they only correct the timing signal of one or several scan lines at a time.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Could have just been a tracking adjustment. Every camcorder & vcr I have used has one. Sometimes its tricky to find.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
    Search Comp PM
    It's not. Just a line TBC.
    The error you mention is actually quite simple to fix.

    It's odd that the JVC TBC did not correct it.
    Quote Quote  
  6. I'd like to give you all a little background on myself so you know the level of experience I have working with video. I worked for 10 years in video production in top 30 U.S. market television stations and currently provide technical support to a small video production facility. I am very familiar with all kinds of professional video equipment, including all sorts of VTR's and TBC's.

    I'll address some specific issues:
    Of course I checked the tracking and it is not a tracking error. It's also not the camcorder. Other tapes, old and new, playback just fine. It's just this one particular tape. In my experience this bad of a time base error would normally only be corrected by a full frame TBC, and that's if you are lucky. I can only speculate as to how this is possible but I assure you the correction in the DMR-E55 far surpasses anything I have ever seen in a consumer level video equipment, including the JVC VCR's with a TBC. Based on my experience and empirical evidence, I DO NOT believe the the TBC in the DMR-E55 is a simple line TBC.

    Macrovision. I believe it is possible that a DVD recorder (or other consumer video device) could have a full frame TBC and still be able to disallow the copying of macrovison protected material.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member richdvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by mracer
    I DO NOT believe the the TBC in the DMR-E55 is a simple line TBC.
    Believe it, it's a fact.
    Read Lordsmurf's comments right above yours.
    You want a full frame TBC, get a Datavideo TBC-1000.
    Quote Quote  
  8. I just don't care anymore. The bias here is extraordinary. You all have free will to believe whatever you want and buy whatever you want. It is not my problem if the blue koolaide flows into your mouths from these forums and you swallow it without question.
    Quote Quote  
  9. I have a Panasonic DMR-E75V which is a combo unit. It allows me to switch between the vcr output and the dvd output. Recently, I have been testing tapes with horizontal and sometimes vertical sync issues. I was curious if the TBC could be turned off so I talked to Panasonic customer support. They said that the "Line-In NR" function is not the TBC and that the TBC could not be turned off.

    I also asked if the TBC is a line or frame unit. Here is the reply from Panasonic's engineering department.

    "The DMR series recorders utilize a frame synchronizer where incoming non-synchronous video is and referenced against an internal reference signal. While a TBC performs the same function, it also regenerates horizontal and vertical sync as well as the color burst reference signal.
    Since these are designed for the consumer market, no technical specifications of this caliber are available"

    In terms of testing, the frame synchronizer does work well. Even when the vcr output is vertically rolling, the dvd output does not but it does have a horizontal band which is not too obtrusive which rolls top to bottom.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Preservationist davideck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    USA
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by gshelley61
    All TBC's (even professional units) were line TBC's until digital memory became smaller and more affordable. That's when TBC's with full frame synchronization and time base signal correction capability were introduced. A side benefit of full frame units is that they completely eliminate all copy protection signals, something line TBC's don't do because they only correct the timing signal of one or several scan lines at a time.
    Actually gshelley61 -

    Many professional line TBCs did replace the entire vertical interval.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Reading this on 2023 was a nice catch... usually i use a modified version ofthe panasonic VJ AVE5 (able to change every value using potentiometer ) as TBC on very bad VHS... i searched a lot this unit ( DMR-E55 PAL )... and today i received it...

    no words... seems that the E55 has the same TBC capability of the VJ AVE5 ... no strange color artifacts on Svideo/composite (like the DATAVIDEO S500) .. jittering FIX... lateral skew fixing... and for what i know the unit was from 2004 ... but the AVE5 for what i discoverd come from the 1993 (!!!) this means the unit is 11 years younger! (aka better capacitors, better signals filtering, better digital technology)

    very very surprised by this unit (and i bought any other DVDR recorder able to do some kind of "stabilization" on old VHS signals)

    i know that this is a necroposting, but the discussion made on 2005 is very actual, number of people that are "converting" VHS is increasing and i hope this can help them to found a good (and modern) TBC replacement.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Bartoloni View Post
    i know that this is a necroposting, but the discussion made on 2005 is very actual, number of people that are "converting" VHS is increasing and i hope this can help them to found a good (and modern) TBC replacement.
    VHS conversion is not increasing

    And these random DVD recorders are not TBCs.

    At very best, some certain recorders, mixers, etc, have various weak TBCs inside. For example, these specific Panasonic DVD recorders have strong+crippled line TBCs, no frame TBCs. A good S-VHS VCR has a better line TBC, with none of the negative side effects of the recorders (posterization, hot luma, etc). And you still need a frame TBC, otherwise you will get dropped frames.

    These Panasonic recorders are best used when you have tearing issues, but only in those situations that result in a net positive quality gain. In general, quality is reduced by these recorders.

    Just how it is.

    The idea that some cheap consumer items have proper TBCs is as ridiculous as thinking a 50cc go-kart motor is the same as a car engine. It's just not.
    Quote Quote  
  13. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Member Since 2005, Re-joined in 2016
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Bartoloni View Post
    no words... seems that the E55 has the same TBC capability of the VJ AVE5 ... no strange color artifacts on Svideo/composite (like the DATAVIDEO S500) .. jittering FIX... lateral skew fixing... and for what i know the unit was from 2004 ... but the AVE5 for what i discoverd come from the 1993 (!!!) this means the unit is 11 years younger! (aka better capacitors, better signals filtering, better digital technology)

    very very surprised by this unit (and i bought any other DVDR recorder able to do some kind of "stabilization" on old VHS signals).
    Good to know this model works, Now we need a manufacturing year data to see if all of them work or just a certain batch of certain manufacturing years or if possible the chipset, but this requires opening the unit.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
    Location
    Bavaria
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bartoloni View Post
    no words... seems that the E55 has the same TBC capability of the VJ AVE5 ... no strange color artifacts on Svideo/composite (like the DATAVIDEO S500) .. jittering FIX... lateral skew fixing... and for what i know the unit was from 2004 ... but the AVE5 for what i discoverd come from the 1993 (!!!) this means the unit is 11 years younger! (aka better capacitors, better signals filtering, better digital technology)

    very very surprised by this unit (and i bought any other DVDR recorder able to do some kind of "stabilization" on old VHS signals).
    Good to know this model works, Now we need a manufacturing year data to see if all of them work or just a certain batch of certain manufacturing years or if possible the chipset, but this requires opening the unit.
    Here is an overview of all PAL Panasonic DVD recorders from Germany (Europe).
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e4#post2669328

    Here is a revised and newer version but only in German language (which should not really be a problem).
    https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48522-%C3%BCbersicht-%C3%BCber-alle-panason...chland-europa/

    Here you can see the E55 in action.
    https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/12108-weird-horizontal-distortions.html#post79333
    https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/12108-weird-horizontal-distortions.html#post79341
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!