Macs and PCs - Take 2

[vitualis]

No flames please this time!

mac has better software support out of the box.

No

Can you give me an example of PC software that comes with the computer? thats what I meant by "out of the box." I am well aware that there is much more software available for the PC but i'm curious as to what comes pre-installed.

Usually, your regular Windows XP machine will have Windows XP +/- some manufacturer apps installed.

In general, you should be able to use the internet, use e-mail, play videos and CDs, etc.

Common manufacturer (and OEM apps with hardware) included apps would be things like photo managers, CD and DVD burning proggies, scanning, photo printing, image editing, etc.

Programs that would be useful though are not usually included/preinstalled on a new PC:
- Adobe Acrobat Reader
- Word processing
- Spreadsheet
- Viewers for common Office formats

And, unfortunately with anti-trusts suits going on, it is relatively difficult for Microsoft to bundle additional software with Windows.

The Windows platform has some very very good freeware available to it though which can be easily obtained via the net or via the cover disc of many PC magazines.

Mac OS X arguably has better pre-installed software "out-of-the-box".

Windows has arguable better hardware compatibility "out-of-the-box" (go buy just about ANY PC peripheral, and it will work with Windows XP).

As to the question asked initially on the OTHER locked thread, it really is very simple why many people choose PCs over Macs. I choose PCs.

PCs are cheaper and they are better value for money in terms of the hardware you are getting. As the hardware achitecture is somewhat open, you are pretty much free to choose whatever you want (if you build your own machine or if you go to a small local PC shop). This is not limited to "I want this much RAM" and "this size HDD" and "wi-fi". You get to choose exactly which mobo you want, which brand and spec of RAM, etc. You get a choose of simply a VAST array of hardware to create your machine. If you want to customise your PC to a particular application (e.g., office workstation or gaming beast or digital video editing) you can.

With regards to computer speed, it is as I have stated before. I'm sorry, but the vast majority of Apple sponsored "tests" vs PCs are bollucks. They almost inevitably choose one particular metric that show the Mac in a good light compared to PCs. That is a useless test of performance and nothing more than an advertising gimmickry. More often than not as well, there is a strong hint of dodgyness (e.g., using newly optimised Mac software vs an older unoptimised PC version).

Tests between two platforms (e.g., even between Athlon and Pentium based systems) need to be compared on multiple levels to get a general idea on the overall performance. There are almost always certain tests that one platform does better at compared to other. For example, the P4 (Northwood and Prescott) tend to compare only on par or worse than the Athlon 64. However, if I only showed you a DivX or MPEG-4 encoding test, you would think that the P4 smokes the Athlon64!

From most independent testing that I have read on the G5, in terms of GHz per GHz, the Athlon64 and Opteron processors have superior performance. All these processors are (per GHz basis) much better than the P4 but the P4 scales to much higher clockspeeds than any of these CPUs. High end dual G5 systems are only mildly to moderately faster than single CPU high end P4/Opteron systems, but cost a LOT more. Lower end dual G5 or dual G4 systems inevitable have lower performance than high end single-CPU PC systems (though obviously have other benefits in being dual CPU).

In any case for any single ordinary Mac on the market that I can get NOW, it would be trivial to buy/build a PC with better performance on almost any metric for LESS.

That is why I choose a PC. Other people may well choose buying a new PC (e.g., from Dell) for bad reasons (e.g., apathy, used to using Windows, etc.) but don't categorise us all that way.

I can recognise that Mac OS X is a great OS with great software and that Macs are often well built, high quality machines. I think that it is without a doubt that Macs are more secure than Windows natively. A Mac newbie with a fast broadband connection will probably be entirely safe as is while a Windows newbie will be hammered. Mac security holes are much less likely to be exploited.

But, I don't have these security problems because I know how to avoid them on the PC scene. Being security conscious and aware probably makes me SAFER on Windows also, than being unaware on Mac OS.

Windows is in addition becoming intrinsically safer. Your default installation of Windows SP2 will block most free-roaming worms and is set to automatically install and apply updates. As long as your "newbie" user doesn't get tricked by social engineering techniques (which are applicable on an platform), he or she can't do too much damage to the OS.

Mac OS X users not needing to re-install the OS? Great!

I've never had to re-install Windows XP on my laptop either and it's been running for about 4 years and has survived the installation and uninstallation of many many programs (as well as surviving SP1 and SP2).

Why do you choose a PC or a Mac? (please keep the discussion civil)

Regards.

[zorankarapancev]

I know several people who converted themselves from PC to Mac. They did that out of frustration and now they are very happy indeed.

They are not people who build, upgrade and fix computers, but they love to use them.

They don’t ask for free software and don’t mind to pay for something they really need.

They enjoy exchanging e-mails and surfing the Internet and they don’t want to spoil that enjoyment worrying if that is safe or not for the computer they use.

They like the fact that they have to call only one telephone number (Apple) if they have any question about their hardware or software.

They love the fact that Apple is always setting new standards in computer technology, looking at the future needs of its clients instead of trying to make a few fast bucks.

They never go to PC forums teasing, bugging and insulting people who still use PC computers and who are obviously very happy with them.

P.S. BTW, I have yet to find one Mac user who converted him/her self to a PC.

[smearbrick1]

Because, like most people, I am a sheep and can't make my own informed decisions.

Honestly, I bought a PC because it what was available at the store when I bought my first PC. If Macs were more widely available, and had more flexiblity (pertaining to hardware changes and software options). Ultimately, now that I have internet access and access to an automobile that I trust (for that long trip to Philadelphia to visit the only Apple store that I know of), I still bought a PC (from Dell) because of the cost.

Since the release of the Mac Mini though... I'm seriously thinking about buying a Mac.

[canadateck]

Same thing here it was the cost , I wouldnt buy a car if I didnt know how to drive it.
But with the new mini I WILL buy one, and see what happens from there.

[arnisandyz]

Great informative post Vitualis! Great part about both Mac and PC is that it gives consumers a choice. I use a Mac at home and the office and I also teach computer graphics at the local community college, and they have PCs. I choose to use a Mac as my personal machine not because its "faster", "cooler", " better built" but because of familiarity. I've used Macs since the late 80s and they have served me well. It took me a little while to get used to the PCs in the lab, but now that I'm more familiar with them, once you get into the applications (like photoshop on mac vs PC) you pretty much forget what platform your on. But we have dedicated lab geeks that take care of he computer so I don't have to. I'm sure its the same on the PC side, people that work on PCs know what make them tick. Right now I'm faced with setting up a computer for my mom. She's not to technically savy but wants a computer to get on the internet, download her pictures from her camera and listen to music. The mac mini is perfect. I have old monitors and keyboards laying around from previous systems and if something goes wrong I can help her out because I'm familiar with macs.

[lordsmurf]

Mac is too rigid in video options. There is at minimum 10x more software for PC for video, and much of it has more options available. And not all of it is "freeware" as is the common assumption of Mac users. I rarely use freeware.

- Some as simple as HALF D1 encoding can be difficult on Mac.
- Ripping DVDs (not "backups" either) to return them to source files.
- MPEG hardware captures.

Sure, some Mac person is going to come along and say "hey, you can do that with XYZ", but it won't be the SAME THING. For example, some Half D1 can be done ... at limited bitrates. Yuck! MPEG hardware? Oh yeah, megabucks. Ripping back to source? Like 1 program, maybe 2.

Mac video is studio-based. Studios are rigid. DV in, DVD out. For this, it is an excellent choice. To some degree, maybe even easier. More or less. FCP and DVDSP are two nice pieces of software.

That's why I have a PC still.

When all this DVD stuff first started in 2001, PC was cheaper and often came with software. That was the reasoning back then. Saved $1000 compared to Mac system of comparable (but nowhere near exact) settings. Half D1 was a MAJOR issue back then too. Impossible.

A friend of mine was a Mac user. He has added a PC because of all this, and the many problems through the years. Duplication was also an issue on the Mac.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Video aside, most Mac vs PC arguments are troll-like and based on user error and lack of knowledge. Anybody can screw up the OS, get a virus, etc. I remember back in college the Mac ZIP DRIVE virus had blasted pretty much every MAC on campus (late 90s). Yeah, way to go Apple! Virus-proof is a dream. It took at least a month for a fix to come out. And I've seen more "BOMBS" than I care to recall. I've probably seen more bombs than BSODs come to think of it.

In terms of design software, photo, typing, Internet, etc ... all the same. Mac vs PC? Flip a coin. Most software is made by one company and ported to multi platforms. Even Sun and Linux get some of them.

Apple is just more expensive and has a tighter grip on drivers, etc. It's easier to screw up a PC, but Mac is not "safe" by any means.

+++++++++++++++++++++

I have used both for many many years, and will continue to do so. I may buy one of those $600 cubes late this year if I can save for it. I would not mind adding one for a low cost. Some of that depends on if I can add a burner (firewire?) or not. Or at minimum add/change hard drives or network it with the PCs.

[decay]

I may buy one of those $600 cubes late this year if I can save for it. I would not mind adding one for a low cost. Some of that depends on if I can add a burner (firewire?) or not. Or at minimum add/change hard drives or network it with the PCs.

The Mac mini can use FW/USB2 burners, and networks very well with Windows and other networking protocols.

dk

[cnelson87]

for me, the mac os and gui is just more intuitive and user friendly. however, I would REALLY like to custom build my own mac but that is virtually impossible. I will probably end up custom building a wintel box to use as an htpc and networked media server. that will make an even 2 macs and 2 pcs in my home network.
I've used both platforms in school and am quite comfortable with either. there's very little that one can do that the other can't. as lordsmurf said, flip a coin. and then shut-up (jk) and go get some work done!

[terryj]

You can do some Custom Building.
On the Mac it is called Built to Order options.

Not the same i know as picking up a Tiger Electronics
catalog and going nutz....

Again, this goes to Apple keeping a tight control
at the motherboard stage on up, so they can,
like Lordsmurf said, keep a handle on drivers
for ports, pci/pci x, and ata to insure stability.

In the shop, if necessary though, we can and have upgraded
/swithced out mother boards on people's G4 towers
when a board was in spec, ( the screw holes and ports lined up) but the factory board wasn't in stock ( say a G4 466,
replaced with a G4 533).

Heck, besides Software being made for everybody by
the major companies, MOST PRERIPHIALS are commonly
cross platform. Who remembers the old days of Mac Scanners being only SCSI, and costing $50-100 higher than
their windows Parrallel counterparts? Ext. SCSI HDs?
Video Cards? ( well that last one still hasn't changed....!)

Now, you can walk in wal-mart, buy any off the shelf:

USB Card
FW Card
CD Burner
DVD Burner
Hard Drive

and take it home and put it in your Mac or PC.

it all comes down basically to what you are comfortable with.

[arnisandyz]

[quote="lordsmurf"]
When all this DVD stuff first started in 2001, PC was cheaper and often came with software. That was the reasoning back then. Saved $1000 compared to Mac system of comparable (but nowhere near exact) settings.

So can it be said that the additional cost for the Mac can be somewhat justified for the "average" user because they package software that is integrated into the machine? Out of the box you don't need to install or download anything to get going.

Mac mini comes with:

iLife ’05: Do More
The Mac mini comes bundled with Apple’s iLife ‘05, featuring the latest versions of iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand. So you can make a movie instantly — just plug in your camcorder and let iMovie do the rest. Download songs and albums from the iTunes Music Store and make your own custom mix CD. Design a coffee-table book using your own photos, or email your favorites to the family. Record a song, then burn it to a CD. iLife ‘05 does all that and more.

More Bundled Software
Use your Mac mini to balance your checkbook with Quicken 2005. Use AppleWorks 6 to compose a spreadsheet or write the next literary classic.

And don't forget, Apple has Quicktime...I use QT pro in video editing alot.

[JoachimS]

So another flamewar.

Wrong forum here! Please go to http://www.ihateapple.com/

Admin, please do what you have to do.

[bazooka]

So another flamewar.

Wrong forum here! Please go to http://www.ihateapple.com/

Admin, please do what you have to do.

You mac fanboys need to get a life. :P

It is just a computer. :P

[lordsmurf]

So can it be said that the additional cost for the Mac can be somewhat justified for the "average" user because they package software that is integrated into the machine?

No.

Mac mini comes with: iLife ’05: ... latest versions of iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand. ... Use your Mac mini to balance your checkbook with Quicken 2005. Use AppleWorks 6 to compose a spreadsheet or write the next literary classic.... And don't forget, Apple has Quicktime...I use QT pro in video editing alot.

Lots of crappy software.
Windows comes with Windows Movie Maker, Notepad, Windows Media Player/Encoder, Wordpad, etc. Lots of junk that nobody in their right mind would ever use.

Lots of PCs come preloaded with Works, MyDVD, Roxio, and lots and lots of other subpar trash. Again .. that nobody in their right mind would use.

Only newbies, maybe. But even then, they outgrow it quickly.

When you go to upgrade to REAL TOOLS, you quickly find Mac has limited options. That's why video on a Mac is aimed only at certain tasks, it is NOT open to doing "just anything" like many people require.

[DanSlagle]

I have been in IT 20 years and just "switched" 3+ years ago. I have had a computer 24 years. I hate PC's still to this day with a passion! Not for what it can and cannot do but for the amount of maintenance, patches, and driver hell I had to deal with. That I still HAVE to put up with them at work. I have yet to see a PC multi-task smoothy with any type of load on it.

I get home everyday and, about, kiss my box! Yes I know I am locked into a certain set of tools, but if you gonna be "stuck" you have got to love Final Cut, Motion, and all the other GREAT pieces of "quality" software you can get.

As far as ripping DVD's converting X to Y, etc.. I could really care less about it and can find better things to do with my time. If I want a copy of a DVD I will spend $14-$20 because "my time is worth more to me". I bought my Mac to edit video, I shot.

I bought my mac because 3 years ago it edited video better and faster than anything else. Now, I am a total convert. I am STILL using the same Mac. Now sometimes in Final Cut when I have a 8 layered video I am waiting on to render.... I wish I had a new dual 2.5 Ghz G5 but I am waiting for dual 3Ghz. This summer <crosses fingers>

I have a 22" flat for it that has been running non-stop for 3 years too. I do not think it has even 1 pixel out. How many of you have +3 year old PC's that you use daily to edit video?

[elgemo]

I work with both systems and olny I have to say is, that mac atmost has no freeware applications like Pc, in Mac all is pay per use, the only thing I see great in Mac is the Unix based SO the rest is the same crap only more expensive and nice exterior loocking (I mean hard and soft).
If you want to squezze a machine in all his possibilities, buy a good PC
And don't forget Microsoft owns a part of apple.


Therefore "Mac is for Girls"
Thank you, and my bad english.

[OmegaSupreme]

So can it be said that the additional cost for the Mac can be somewhat justified for the "average" user because they package software that is integrated into the machine?

No.

Mac mini comes with: iLife ’05: ... latest versions of iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand. ... Use your Mac mini to balance your checkbook with Quicken 2005. Use AppleWorks 6 to compose a spreadsheet or write the next literary classic.... And don't forget, Apple has Quicktime...I use QT pro in video editing alot.

Lots of crappy software.
Windows comes with Windows Movie Maker, Notepad, Windows Media Player/Encoder, Wordpad, etc. Lots of junk that nobody in their right mind would ever use.

Lots of PCs come preloaded with Works, MyDVD, Roxio, and lots and lots of other subpar trash. Again .. that nobody in their right mind would use.

Only newbies, maybe. But even then, they outgrow it quickly.

When you go to upgrade to REAL TOOLS, you quickly find Mac has limited options. That's why video on a Mac is aimed only at certain tasks, it is NOT open to doing "just anything" like many people require.

I would agree that most of the software that comes with PCs are throwaways (Although Notepad does have its uses, such as batch scripts). Mac software is, well, ... different. One of the first computers that I used was an Apple II, so I am far from a newbie. I use iLife all the time.

• I use iPhoto to manage thousands of family pictures and to export them into a quicktime slide shows for the family website. The coffee books actually make nice personalized gifts.

• I use iTunes to manage my music collection of 900+ albums (I will probably break the 1k mark this year) and to burn everything from dance to Christmas mixes. iTunes is simply the best organizer of music on either platform. There is, of course, its use with the iPod

• iMovie is great when I don't need the full power of FCP because of its simple interface.

• iDVD is a great way to put little Johnny's birthday party on DVD. The motion menus are simple drag and drop. The new animated menus are very cool, especially since most DVD authoring programs are challenged with simple motion menus.

• I am not a musician, so I can't comment of the usefulness of GarageBand (Shouldn't it be iBand?) directly. However there are 4 Jam packs (additional musical instrument packages) available. Each pack cost $99, so somebody out there is using the program or they would have stopped at pack 1 or 2. Nobody spends $99 enhancing a softeware package that is useless. Note also that there are a several companies that also sell iMovie filters and iDVD templates. Can you imagine buying a plug-in for wordpad

What really makes iLife standout is the simplicity of its interface and the way all the programs work in a synergistic manner (MS office developers should take notes). If this suite was available on the PC side it would probably sell for $199+, and sell it would.

[lenti_75]

MAc is for lazy people, who spend a lot for so little, and think is better because is more expensive.

I know pc is not perfect, but nor the Mac, because I use it at work....just for picture stuff.

GET A REAL PC...... :P :P :P

[Case]

And don't forget Microsoft owns a part of apple.

If you're referring to the $150 million in stock bought back in 1997, they no longer have that.

[sirN]

Windows comes with solitaire and hearts.

Macs don't!

[sirN]

MAc is for lazy people, who spend a lot for so little, and think is better because is more expensive.

I know pc is not perfect, but nor the Mac, because I use it at work....just for picture stuff.

GET A REAL PC...... :P :P :P

I got a REAL pc, but I prefer my Mac. Why don't you just go back to HELL where you came from.

[DennisHagemann]

Let's not forget that Microsoft saved Apples's butt by moving Microsoft Office to Apple's platform. Without it the Apple wouldn't be worth much.

Sock it to me!

[decay]

continued ignorance and childish prattle.

away with you, dittoheads!

[OmegaSupreme]

There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 PC viruses and less than 10 OSX viruses. There are a lot of theories about why this is true. After reading yesterdays thread and this one, I am starting to think that PC users may simply be more malicious.

Therefore "Mac is for Girls"

You mac fanboys need to get a life. :P

MAc is for lazy people, who spend a lot for so little, and think is better because is more expensive.

Play nice.

[pixeljammedia]

To heck with all y'all. The only computer you should use is a dedicated IBM RS/6000 cluster running A/UX. Everything else sucks and cannot match the terraflops of that mean mamma-jamma.

Ummm.... okay.

yup, you are right, whatever you wrote was absolutely gospel-perfect and everybody else should go to hell and shut-up. You learned 'em real good, now it's time to throw out the computer on the desk and go out and get the other one.

[bazooka]

There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 PC viruses

How about comparing OS X to Linux?

You figures would be way off.

[elgemo]

you say "Mac don't have viruses" and then...


Why in my office Mac Power G5 2.5ghz 2 gb RAM and so so so on, have to install a Norton Antivirus just like my personal PC, because is vulnerable too?


Mac fans... Grow up, forget your acomplish, be fun like us.

"mames is not for mac"

[Harryford]

ya i agree. Everyone here is assuming that all x86 Pc's (macs are personal computers too) run windows, that is simply not true, I run Fedora 3 with the latest kernel and it runs faster and more stable (xp2800+ oc'ed with 512 corsair) than my dads new ibook.

[OmegaSupreme]

you say "Mac don't have viruses" and then...


Why in my office Mac Power G5 2.5ghz 2 gb RAM and so so so on, have to install a Norton Antivirus just like my personal PC, because is vulnerable too?

I haven't run an anti-virus program on my Macs in 2 or 3 years, it would be a waste of money. On my PCs it a different story, I would be crazy not to run Norton. Plus, I have Ad-Aware and Spybot Search & Destroy (neither is anywhere near 100% effective) to hunt down ad-ware and spy-ware. PC land is like Baghdad, lock your doors and sleep in the tub. Mac world is more like newfoundland, leave the door open when your at work.

[soundforbjt]

Norton is the biggest peice of bloatware there is. It's nearly as bad as AOL.

[lordsmurf]

New ones are, slightly older ones are fine.