Video noise reduction

[Blazey]

This post may be more aimed at Gshelly and LS, at any rate, does anyone know what is the best solution for noise reduction in video? I find the slider in VDub produces too many artifacts when capturing and any software solutions I've tried seem worse. Everything looks like plastic. Am I missing something here? What's the best hardware solution?

[thecoalman]

I think a good start is a good VCR, see this thread. Compare the top images to the last one which is from a JVC with DNR. Lot of noise reduction. https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=255539 <credit card finger twitching> That's a thread I wish I had not seen. Good cables.... the problem with these best threads is there is too many answers, one weak link and your shot.

I've also had some success using the de-noise filter at a very low setting in MSP but like you said if you turn it up too high things start to look plastic.

[Blazey]

The filter in TMPGEnc is actually quite good as well, but I'm too anxious to wait for those encodes!

[gshelley61]

If your source is VHS, the JVC 9000 series S-VHS machines are very effective for noise reduction (as the link to the post above demonstrates).

JVC DVD recorders have the same type of real time hardware video noise reduction on the analog inputs, which not only cleans up the video image considerably, but improves the encoding process by reducing the amount of grain and other video noise that must be converted to MPEG2.

Some professional TBC's have "coring" and other video noise reduction circuits that can be switched on. I have a Feral A4:2:2 that does and is actually pretty effective, but it softens the picture a bit more than the JVC VCR's or DVD recorders do.

[guns1inger]

If you can't afford all the kit (and not all of us can when we are starting out, or doing it for a hobby), I have had success with a few different combinations of Vdub filters. The main ones I use are rmPAL (only required if working on PAL footage), Temporal Cleaner beta 0.5 (by Jim Casaburi), Chroma Noise Reduction (by Giles Mouchard) and Unsharp Mask 1.4 (by Antonio Foranna / Donald Graft). Use in moderation, and play around with the order as well as the individual settings. Remember - every source is unique, and requires a treatment tailored just for it.

[vhelp]

Just how bad is your VHS that you need to apply filters to it ??

Give some more details here. Post a pic or two of your source. Maybe
all you need is a new VCR. In the long run, a new VCR could do evem
more in saving your source. It can also cut your encoding time down
dramatically becuase you are not spending the time (your editor or
encoder) applying various filters to no end.
.
I learned a long time ago, that all I had to do was get another VCR
and I started realizing that I no longer had to apply filters. Also
factor in the bitrate I use. Too. You see, in past times I (as you
and many others here do) used too small a bitrate, and that only added
to the issues that leads you to disatisfaction in the end. It's really
the bitrate and the mode you are using thats mostly dampining your
final results. The truth here, is really in the bitrate and mode
you use.
.
If you are trying to fit on a single DVD disk, and you (for obvious
reasons) use VBR multi-pass, you will not be able to achieve the results
you are thirsting for. And, right now, you are thirsting for better
results. Quality.

I think that all you really need is a newer VCR with better features.
My vcr is: JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U and it's a very good model.
I also believe that that those model's higher in name or rank, those
that feature, DNR for instance, is really just my vcr, but with a few
new names added to it to make it stand out. The sample quality that I
obtain from capturing from it is pretty much the same as those of higher
model numbers by this brand name. This model is much cheaper than
those going for $250 or so. But, if you really need to, and can't
help it, go with one of those they say has DNR added.

You can check out this link here, and see the results that his new VCR
JVC S-VHS HR-S7965 - this VCR can produce, as this user was using
his ADVC-50 card with this one:

* VHS player output quality.

.. His last picture demonstrates what he concluded to be the best he can
.. get. Mind you, his source is PAL. And PAL is usually more lines of
.. resoltuion.., which means more detail.

Good luck,
-vhelp 3096

[Blazey]

I rarely capture from VHS. My source is almost always Laserdisc. It's the analog grain that is inherant to the format that I am looking to remove. They look like tiny crosshatch lines in the source. I don't have the best laserdisc players, but I've seen this on the Pioneer Elite models as well. I may be looking for results that cannot be acheived from an analog source.

[gshelley61]

I rarely capture from VHS. My source is almost always Laserdisc. It's the analog grain that is inherant to the format that I am looking to remove. They look like tiny crosshatch lines in the source. I don't have the best laserdisc players, but I've seen this on the Pioneer Elite models as well. I may be looking for results that cannot be acheived from an analog source.

I transfer laserdisc to DVD quite a bit. The video noise reduction in my JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder does a very good job on laserdisc noise. Also, I don't use the s-video output from my Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player because the composite video signal clearly looks better. Laserdisc is in fact a composite analog video source, and the Y/C must be separated by a comb filter to create the s-video output from a LD player. The comb filter in my 10 year old Pioneer player is definitely inferior to the modern 3 line motion adaptive filter that is in my DVD recorder. This is true of Pioneer Elite models, too. The comb filters from 10 years ago simply are not as good as what is available today. I run the LD player composite video all the way through my proc amp and image detailer to the DVD recorder, and let it do the luma and chroma separation. I get outstanding results this way.

If you use the s-video output of your LD player you will likey have dot crawl and other Y/C separation artifacts. If you capture with a typical computer video card and let it split the Y/C, you are probably going to have the same problem. Name brand DVD recorders all have excellent comb filters and will provide nearly flawless Y/C separation of composite video sources for you.

The last LD player Pioneer made, the DVL-919 DVD/LD (Elite version was DVL-91) combination unit, has a very good Y/C filter and reduces laserdisc noise effectively. However, the picture is too soft for capturing. The CLD-D704 has a much more detailed and sharper image via the composite output than the DVL-919. There is an industrial model Pioneer LD-V8000 that is built like a tank and provides a very detailed composite signal, too. These were $2000 machines when they were new, and they don't even "flip" the disc. They can be had on eBay pretty cheap because they don't have AC3 RF out, etc.

[vhelp]

sorry Blazey, I had delayed responding back.

I have two laserdisc models by Pioneer: CLD-D701 and CLD-V2600

The 701 flips the disk over (well, the head just shifts up/down)
The 2600 is single side player.

Both these units play very well. I have no complaints.., nor any on
its output quality - I did antisipate some minor details (such as yours
in your noise) but here's what I found so far, based on my experience.

When I used my Leadtech Winfast TV-2000 XP "Expert" card, the source
was pretty clean (almost) and (w/ the exception of my systems usual
amount of the never ending phenomina that no one has ever ben able to
rid me of to this day, Line Noise) it's a pretty clean source for an
Analog Capture card. This card does offer as special features:

* Y/C Comb Filter
* 10bit sampling

So, why am I not using this card, if its so good. It is good. But,
in my system, I still have the blastid Line Noises. I can see them, and
they add to the MPEG artifacts in the end. No, I have not trashed it.
Just on hold - that's all. I use my ADVC-100 instead, because the crystle
clean source out-way's the the other features of my Winfast card. Plus,
I get zero drops in frames, and no audio sync issues - ever.
.
The only draw back i have w/ the ADVC (thanks to DV format) is with the
issue with how DV processes the color information (aka, 4:1:1 color space)
otherwise known for it's "cross-hatch" or "checker box" under certain colors
such as RED. Some BLUE too, but mostly in RED. They look like big squares.

Here's the catch with DV (if you go with that route some day)

If you use the S-Video connects for this, you will have to use some sort
of 411 filter (you don't have to, but most would prefer it if they were
pointed it out to them)
.
.. If you use an analog capture card, and capture in a codec that does
.. not suffer a "similar" 411 (due to color convergence or interpolating,
.. which resorts to the same or "similar" 411 phenomina (probably by chance)
.. You'll make out better in the end by using S-Video and sharpest image
.. possible - - Because Composite blends, it will soften/blur the image.
.. .
.. The Leadtech card (Winfast I mentioned above) will probably do a better
.. job at this Composite, probably thansk in part by it's hardware Comb Filter)
.
If use use Composite connects, tehn you don't have to use it, because w/
Composite, it already incorporates a Comb (411 de-boinker) and gets rid
of the 411 issue. However, it's not that the compsoites' Comb filter is
getting rid of the 411 directly. It knows nothing about it. It's rather
coiensidence that it's helping to eleiminate it. At least that is how I
see it from my perspective, cause Composite was around way before DV was,
and this 411 phenomina was not in exhistance until they developed the DV
format, which was only a few years ago or so.

Fulci had demonstrated a few sample pics from his AIW 7000 card. They were
from variuos sources, and they looked pretty nice to me. You might want to
do a search on Fulci's pics.., and ask him questions if you get a chance.

Well, I have more to say, but I'm crapping out over here, and lost my
train of thought.

-vhelp 3098

[vhelp]

@ Blazey

Maybe you can post some pics up (un altered)

I don't have a stock pile of laserdisc movies, but I do have a few
laying around. I'm hoping to get my hands on "Blade Runner". I lost
a bid on ebay a long time ago ($6 bucks) to someone else. But, I do
have: star wars; last mohegans; show girls to name a few.

Although I think I know what you're talking about, it would be
curious to see what exactly you are refering to in these noises.

-vhelp 3099