Where do I go after the basics?

[jknutson2]

Background:

• I've read many posts on capture devices/conversions and finally settled on an ADVC-100.
  
  I've captured / converted my DV from VHS tapes and HI8 video into MPEG and burned to DVD.
  
  I've read numerous guides on capturing, converting, editing, authoring, burning and backup.
  
  I've tried out most of the tools used by the various guides in one way or another (at least if I didn't have to buy them up front).

Problem:

I don't know what I don't know, but I do know there's a lot I don't know. The guides seem to be geared for cookie cutter tasks, but don't really cover the terminology and implications of changing the values/terms in any depth. They just pick a single working path through the mass of combinations of tools available. Deviations from the path are possible, but the results are undefined when the impact is unknown.

The problem manifests itself in my trying to evaluate various tools against each other for purchase/usability. I have been using Nero Vision Ultra, but the guides lead me to believe that combinations such as TMPGenc and DVDLab or other tools might produce better results. In my comparisons of the outputs of the tools, I can see little difference. However, this is complicated by not having apples to apples comparisons (e.g. the trial version of TMPGenc doesn't support encoding with AC3 audio while my copy of Nero Vision does). I suspect, that I'm not using the tools to their fullest, but I think that requires deviating from the path and that requires understanding terminology and implications of changing values.

So, what I'm looking for is a synopsis or course on video concepts, terminology, and the general philosophy used to generate quality video. This is the background that starts to make it possible to deviate from the golden paths. If this doesn't exist, it would be nice to have some sort of apprenticeship where it could be learned. I would even be willing to capture the information and put it into a guide if necessary, but the desired end result is to learn the ropes without a trial and error approach, obviously with an emphasis on my being able to improve the DVD quality of my VHS/Hi8 captures/conversions and authoring.

I understand that my assumptions / desires may be naive, hence the newbie post, but I'm willing to learn and willing to pass on what I learn if I can. Any help in figuring out the best strategies for improvement would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

[reboot]

My rule of thumb has been, try everything, keep what works best for you.
My second rule of thumb, standalone applications always work better than "suite" types. Nero included.
My third rule of thumb, free is good.
Caveat: Some things you just have to pay for to get the best.
You're going to get a ton of opinions. Remember that's all they are. Only you can decide what's best for you.
As far as improving quality goes, it doesn't matter what you use to capture, edit, encode, convert, author, and burn, as long as the end result looks the way you envisioned it.
I'd love to post a list of "great", and "free", and "the best", but there is no definitive answer.
If you want a list of software, just go through the tools list, and read the comments.

[jimmalenko]

WoW!

That has got to be one of the better virgin posts I've seen in my time here - good job

Pretty much what reboot said - in general terms a lot of the software is "much of a muchness" in terms of what they can and can't do, and some do things better than others. It really depends on what YOU need to do, and how happy YOU are with this product over that one. You pretty much need to find the combination that delivers the results YOU desire, and this is what trial periods are all about.

My philosophy has always been that you should use dedicated tools for dedicated tasks - that is, use a dedicated encoder such as CCE, TMPGEnc, Procoder, Mainconcept etc etc for your encoding, use a dedicated authorer such as DVD-lab, TMPGEnc DVD Author etc etc for authoring, and so on. I am yet to find one all-in-one that provides the options and flexibility you get with using dedicated tools, so this is just my experience, whereas others may well say that " ... NeroVision can do it all and I'm stoked with the quality".

Unfortunately, "Trial and Error" is the only real way to learn this great hobby we have, as different strokes suit different folks.

[lordsmurf]

This is why I write a lots of my guides with GUIDANCE in mind, not an END-ALL BE-ALL method. Anywhere there is an option, it is mentioned as best as time allows.

Too many guides, I agree, are rigid as hell and therefore fairly worthless to some degree.

I'm also a huge fan of CONCEPT guides, not so much SOFTWARE guides.

There is also NO SINGLE DOCUMENT that can explain video. It's a process of much reading, and then learning where concepts overlap with software options. If a guide tells you to "use pulldown", then you'd best understand what EXACTLY that means. And it may take another 1-2 guides/documents/articles to understand HOW and WHY the guide to "use pulldown". And then, there's always the chances that the guide-writer was wrong or too "young" in the hobby to be sharing info (another problem, especially in the past 6 months).

[Buzzword]

jknutson2, I feel your pain. I started doing dvd conversions over a year ago and I still consider myself a newbie. However, Reboot stated something that's very important in that as long the end result looks the way you want it then you should feel good about that, even though you may not have completely understood how you did it. I've spent countless hours on trial and error, making mistakes, not knowing what the heck I was doing. But the final product has always turned out pretty good considering my level of expertise. Each project I've done has taught me more things. Then again, I don't try to overload myself with information on the various concepts. I figure eventually I'll come across an issue on one of my projects that I've been curious about and will get to deal with it and resolve it in a real world sense.

So, to rephrase a shoe company pitch, my suggestion is Just Keep Doing It. And check this forum daily, read the guides, and search the Internet.

The folks who contribute to this forum seem to promote the standalone versions but I took the more conservative approach and use the Adobe Video Suite, mainly because I was able to take some formal training in it to get me started. It’s served me well for what I do so I’ll stick with it.

Good luck.

[jknutson2]

I'm afraid the mode I've been operating under is already the try everything trial and error mode, but I think that's leading me to the wrong decisions because I'm not using the tools to the fullest.

For example, if I take a 2 hr capture from VHS and convert it for DVD authoring, TMPGenc doesn't seem to give me any better quality than Nero Vision. What I get is a bit grainy. Maybe that's as good as it gets given the source, but how would I know? From what I can tell, the tools all produce the same result or near enough that I can't tell.

Another example, I have a choice of converting to D1 at lower bitrate or half D1 at higher bitrate (I think), but I don't know what criteria should be used for making choices like that or what the implications would be. Shouldn't there be some criteria on selecting this based on the source as well as fitting it on a 4GB DVD with proper quality?

Another example is interlacing. I expect my VHS sources are interlaced, but I don't know if the DV capture/conversion is or whether it should be preseved as interlaced or made progressive or ... when going to DVD. I have no clue if my Hi8 is interlaced to start with or needs to be converted to interlaced or not.

Then there's even more technical details like what the heck does Top Field First and Bottom Field First mean and why would I ever switch them around? Or why would I pick / change GOP settings or I/B/P Frame settings? In my tools evaluations, I don't recall TMPGenc Xpress allowing for changing these, though TMPGenc did. Is this going to be an issue? VirtualDubMod offers some filters like field bob/swap, but I don't even know what fields are, what bobbing does, or why I should use them. AVISynth2 has numerous filters defined and seems to be the tool of choice for numerous conversion scenarios, but requires that you understand many concepts (color spaces/conversions, frame/field based, bob, TFF/BFF, chroma/luminance, convolution). I see lots of posts trying to combine these filters/operators and getting comments back about scripts not doing what they really expected. Some of this is typical programming errors by non-programmers (I have 20 yrs in the software industry), but I think a lot is not having the grounding to understand what is being done. Editing seems to be sensitive to I/B/P frames, but do all the editing and authoring tools take this into account (e.g. chapter definitions in authoring tools) and when is it necessary to worry about it?

For conversion / authoring, some tools want elementary streams, some allow (require) AVI or system streams (?), some guides talk about demuxing, others converting to WAV. The whole background on system vs. elementary streams seems quite arbitrary to me. Some authoring tools take AC3, some PCM, some other (?). I think AC3 is more compact and therefore more desirable in allowing better video bitrate, but many guides don't talk about using AC3 other than it is an acceptable audio format for compliant DVDs. What's the criteria for selecting audio format? It can't just be whatever suits your needs best.

All I know is enough to know I'm stupid when it comes to what I really need to know. Sure, I can put my videos on DVD now, but I have to believe that the results I'm getting are nowhere near what I should be. I achieved some form of success by following the golden path, but now it's time for the hard work. I'd just like to be smart about the hard work and for that I think I need a deeper understanding of how it all works together. Otherwise, all my successes will be accidents.

[thecoalman]

Another example is interlacing. I expect my VHS sources are interlaced, but I don't know if the DV capture/conversion is or whether it should be preseved as interlaced or made progressive or ... when going to DVD. I have no clue if my Hi8 is interlaced to start with or needs to be converted to interlaced or not.

Most material is interlaced and should never be interlaced. For the most part progressive is only available on high end cams. The only reason I would ever deinterlace is strictly for computer playback for distribution from a website.

Then there's even more technical details like what the heck does Top Field First and Bottom Field First mean and why would I ever switch them around?

That's referring to the interlaced fields. For example DV is always bottom field first.

For conversion / authoring, some tools want elementary streams, some allow (require) AVI or system streams (?), some guides talk about demuxing, others converting to WAV. The whole background on system vs. elementary streams seems quite arbitrary to me. Some authoring tools take AC3, some PCM, some other (?). I think AC3 is more compact and therefore more desirable in allowing better video bitrate, but many guides don't talk about using AC3 other than it is an acceptable audio format for compliant DVDs. What's the criteria for selecting audio format? It can't just be whatever suits your needs best.

Actually it's what suits your software. In the end you want AC3, it's fully DVD compliant and provides the best quality to compression ratio.

Have you visited www.digitalfaq.com Lot of great technical info there.

[jdizzy40]

By far one of the best threads I have read in a while. Keep up the good work jknutson2. You seem very informed already, just keep breaking it down. Stay away from the junk software sold in the stores. I started 2 years ago with MySonic DVD and now use Sony Vegas. I went from a few buttons to many buttons. TMPGNec products are great too. I own them all. Each has its purpose. Trail and error is what we must all go through. There are alot of very knowledgable folks on this site. And the site itself managed by an outstanding individual. Good luck with your search.

[sacajaweeda]

the desired end result is to learn the ropes without a trial and error approach

Wouldn't that be just ducky if somebody could just break it down like that for everybody!

[ronnylov]

I have learned most by making my own mistakes , reading forums like this and reading guides on the internet.

I think I started to begin to understand interlacing after reading Luke´s Video Guide but I think his site is closed now. The guide is still available here: http://neuron2.net/LVG/default.htm
Luke's guide is aimed for cartoons at low bitrates displayed on a computer so it took a while for me to understand that all the noise filters are really not needed when making DVD's and you don't need to deinterlace for DVD. But the guide is nice to learn some basics of digital video.

I learned the meaning of top field first and low field first when I made the wrong setting in the encoder. The result was very jerky when watching it on the TV. The picture jumped back and forth when there was horisontal movements in the picture. So if the setting is wrong you will notice it when watching the final result on the TV. But once you find the setting which match your capturing device you can keep using that setting. In your case you should use bottom field first because DV is specified to always be bottom field first.

Just keep on with your work. You seem interested enough to learn everything you need and more.

[tmh]

Wow, I'd swear this thread was stolen from my brain! I'm at the same place - I can make my DVDs and they're "OK" but I have this nagging feeling that I'm missing something - I just don't know WHAT.

Because I use camcorder DV as my source I know I have an imperfect source to begin with. Some scenes are dark, some shaky, etc. I know there are filters to "correct" this, I just haven't been successful with them. Whatever problem I "correct" seems to cause an undesired side effect like over-softening of the video or bluriness.

I see over at doom9.org lots of talk about using Avisynth scripts but I really don't know if it applies to what I'm doing.

Anyhow, thanks for a great thread for us "tweeners" who can make a video easy enough (finally) but know there's more to it.

[thecoalman]

Because I use camcorder DV as my source I know I have an imperfect source to begin with. Some scenes are dark, some shaky, etc. I know there are filters to "correct" this, I just haven't been successful with them.

DV is an excellent source if you have a good cam, my first quick test with my Canon GL2 sold me on that fact. It almost looked as good as anything you would see coming out of TV station with their $50,000 dollar cams, of courese that's in general.

Here's some link to some screenshots: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242782

I'll be posting some links to the original DV-AVI there, maybe about 1 minute when I get a chance. Plus some dvd compliant mpegs.

[reboot]

thecoalman has given some very valid points. I'm just going to add my own opinions

For example, if I take a 2 hr capture from VHS and convert it for DVD authoring, TMPGenc doesn't seem to give me any better quality than Nero Vision. What I get is a bit grainy. Maybe that's as good as it gets given the source, but how would I know? From what I can tell, the tools all produce the same result or near enough that I can't tell.

Each encoder uses a different engine (mostly). What's under the hood determines how good/bad fast/slow the result will be. Some encoders are far better than others. Some are far faster than others. Better and faster rarely meet.
Some encoders have a multitude of settings, some are extremely basic, or have none at all. Choose an encoder wisely. The right settings, in the right encoder, can dramatically improve the output, compared to poor settings in a poor encoder.
The 3 at the top of my list, are Canopus Procoder, Mainconcept mpeg encoder, andCinemacraft Encoder (CCE). Tmpgenc runs a close 4th. Everything after that isn't worth the hassle (to me).
CCE is very fast, with decent results. In order to get exceptional results, you will have to learn some avisynth scripting. I personally, don't have time to bother, and prefer Canopus or Mainconcept.

Another example, I have a choice of converting to D1 at lower bitrate or half D1 at higher bitrate (I think), but I don't know what criteria should be used for making choices like that or what the implications would be. Shouldn't there be some criteria on selecting this based on the source as well as fitting it on a 4GB DVD with proper quality?

If your source is 352x240, there's no point in enlarging it to 720x480. 352x240 is a valid dvd spec video size (called 1/4D1). Basic rule of thumb; Don't resize anything if you don't have to.

For conversion / authoring, some tools want elementary streams, some allow (require) AVI or system streams (?), some guides talk about demuxing, others converting to WAV. The whole background on system vs. elementary streams seems quite arbitrary to me. Some authoring tools take AC3, some PCM, some other (?). I think AC3 is more compact and therefore more desirable in allowing better video bitrate, but many guides don't talk about using AC3 other than it is an acceptable audio format for compliant DVDs. What's the criteria for selecting audio format? It can't just be whatever suits your needs best.

AC3 is DVD spec audio, and will work for both PAL and NTSC. MP2 and LPCM will also work in MOST cases, but are not really DVD spec. (see https://www.videohelp.com/dvd )
Encoders usually put out either system or elementary streams. System is a muxed (audio and video together) mpg. Elementary are separate audio and video streams. Which one you use depends on your authoring application. Some will take either equally well. Some will not. Some can cause sever audio sync issues, some do not. My rule of thumb for this; use elementary streams, convert audio to AC3, encode video, and then author. Neve had a sync problem doing it this way, but I am not using "one-click" type applications anyhow.
Hope this sorts things out a bit more for you.

[jknutson2]

<sigh> Well, I figured it was going to be too much to ask, so at this point, I'll outline my strategy, appeal for support, and hope to apprentice my way through this via the forums.

The strategy is for me to keep a log of what I have to learn and when. I plan to write down everything I can learn and organize it from the simplest getting started info to the more advanced info. It will contain concepts and terms and how they relate to each other, starting with basic concepts of video and audio. Concepts and terms will show up in a glossary with references to sections where they show up and are discussed in more detail. I plan to start capturing basic guidelines for someone getting started, starting with the simplest one button setups that minimizes what you need to know to get results (for the instant gratification crowd).

From there I plan to branch out into more advanced topics (obviously as I learn them). This introduces the specialized tools first that just reproduce the one button solutions. After that it will be discussing the advanced concepts of video/audio and how they all work together.

To some extent, I'd like to organize it like a college course. I'd like to include sample segments of video problems and discuss how to clean them up to get nice clean quality versions. This will be important for those who don't know whether they are getting the best results. They can perform the experiments themselves and see if they can duplicate results and even compare to their own projects.

I expect to sprinkle references to the forums and guides throughout as I find ones that stand out for me (I've a few I've bookmared already) to save people from having to do searches and weeding through numerous posts to find the good tidbits.

I expect this to be a multi-year project and potentially will never really be done, but perhaps this can be my contribution for the help and feedback I've received from the forums and guides. Anyone willing to contribute is welcome. Lastly, I also expect some to think this a folly given my lack of expertise in the area and the duplication of what many guides have already, but I need to learn this and writing it down is going to help me if nothing else. If others benefit, all the better.

[sacajaweeda]

You've outlined this website, basically. Why not just use it like everybody else? Rather than re-inventing the wheel, I mean.

[reboot]

An admirable undertaking.
Often I have thought, it would be just nice if there were ONE definitive guide, for a given piece of software. Something comprehensive, searchable, and detailed enough, with examples, and not just the "manual" or help files, usually translated into Chinglish.

[jimmalenko]

Isn't this what the DVD FAQ is all about ?

All the information is here (or linked to from here) already IMO.

[sacajaweeda]

not just the "manual" or help files, usually translated into Chinglish.

Is that anything like Engrish?

[Leoslocks]

Anyone willing to contribute is welcome

This site may be more tuned to you level of understanding.
© Rui del-***** / Azul SPI

The linked page is a step through for Configuring TMPGEnc for high-quality, DVD-compliant MPEG-2. It makes more sense every time I read it.

[lordsmurf]

Anyone willing to contribute is welcome

This site may be more tuned to you level of understanding.
© Rui del-***** / Azul SPI

The linked page is a step through for Configuring TMPGEnc for high-quality, DVD-compliant MPEG-2. It makes more sense every time I read it.

That guide is flawed. Things like DC10 are a horrible idea in TMPGEnc.
Try this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/convert/tmpgenc/tmpgencplus.htm

[Leoslocks]

That guide is flawed. Things like DC10 are a horrible idea in TMPGEnc.

Your Guide tells us what to do or not to do.

DC component precision 10 bits
This controls the precision of the discrete cosine values used in the image compression (this translates the image into a series of interfering frequencies and lets the program eliminate frequencies that aren't visually relevant - this is similar to the compression used in JPEG images). Higher values results in better quality, at the expense of encoding time.

This guide explains the concept.

I think jknutson2 is interested in making his own judgments and decisions. I even tried setting the Digital Component Precision setting to 10bit and the Motion Search Precision to Highest Quality. The only thing horrible about the idea was the amount of encoding time using the Highest Quality setting for Motion Search Precision. Setting DC to 10 didn't alter much (Quality or encoding time) on my project.

[vhelp]

I've ben reading this thread for a while now, since it first came out.
I must have had 3 or 4 different text book lengths of responses, but
deleted them all.

@ jknutson2

Your problem is this. You think Guides.., Steps.., Flowcharts.., etc.
that have paved the way. These sometimes work for some, when the source
is just right, or coiensidence that the user's eyes ( ) are not
at the level as yours.. plus the devices that show the final results,
and then some. Too many to list.

The above is what's killing or dampining your final outcome to your
conclusions. There are pieces of papers scattered abroad. With lots
of dots everywheres. As long as you keep following these dots, you'll
always have the in your mind.

* Source obtained
* Source finalized for using
* Editing / Preporation
* Encoder
* Methods to process video
* all the above, and more.., and finally, the users skills/knowledge/technique
.. and TIME. (not to be mistaken w/ free time)
* more..

.
.

. Skills / knowledge / technique / TIME

* Encoder
* Bitrate

.
.

* TV viewing devices


Anyways.

But, can anyone tell jknutson2 what is the number one answer to success ??

.. I already have my own, (fitting this topic) based on my experience.

Thanks,

-vhelp 3082

[jknutson2]

But, can anyone tell jknutson2 what is the number one answer to success ??

.. I already have my own, (fitting this topic) based on my experience.

I get it. I really do. I was a Computer Science college grad at one point in my life and I thought I had been taught most everything I needed to know about software, but 20+ years of experience later has really clued me into the complexities of software systems and I'm still learning. There's nothing like experience as a teacher. So, I agree on that point.

Now, I'm going to tell you that anyone can be a programmer. Just look at AVISynth2 as an example. Fiddling with spreadsheets is programming. Writing multi-million line distributed transactional processing systems is really a hefty programming job, yet anyone can learn to do it. You might be surprised by this, but it really revolves around providing the right structure and basis for educating someone. This provides a framework for plugging in new knowledge in a way that makes sense in relation to everything else. Trial and error becomes less of random success and more of intuitive validation.

I want to help provide the framework. There's lots of useful information out there, but knowing what's useful at what stage is really hard if you're brand new to this.

Let me give you an example. I originally got started in this when I bought a DVD in London to watch on my flight back to Texas. I pop it in to my laptop and whoops, what's a region code? I get that fixed (trial and error and hope the computer doesn't stop working) and watch it. When I get home, I try to watch it with the wife on the TV's DVD player. Whoops? What's PAL? Ok, I should be able to convert my DVD from PAL to NTSC if I do a bit of research on the net. Whoops, it doesn't fit on a DVD? Whoops, there's different resolutions? Whoops, there's different aspect ratios, VOBs, elementary streams, TFF, BFF, GOP, I/B/P frames? What does it all mean? I still haven't completed that project yet and have never been able to watch it on my TV. I almost gave up completely based on being overloaded by terms/concepts that I had to sort out for importance and relevance. Top this off with my early experience with ULead DVD Movie Factory 2 [ugh], and it was too much.

What finally brought me back was a large pile of VHS and 8mm video that I needed to do something about and a chance sale of Nero Ultra 6 for really cheap. I figured I'd give it one more try and with the help of Nero, the forum and some tools found here, I've had enough success to at least make me want to tackle the problem again. However, I'm still wrestling with all the terms and yes, it's going to take a while to get experience with it all.

Should it really be this hard? Ideally, no, but in the near term, I think there's little choice. The forums and guides are great, but they are typically used to solve problems, not prevent them. Get a little education up front and it might prevent some problems from ever occuring, and help find resolution to problems faster. That means more people stay interested, the industry grows and we all benefit.

Btw, I know there are guides out already that cover some of this. For those cases, I plan to reference, not duplicate information. What I want to do is provide a framework for when that information needs to be learned and why. I've got too much to do to reinvent the wheel.

[Biffarama]

I don't have much to add except that jknutson2 has captured exactly how I feel about the DVD process and this site. Maybe the best thread I"ve read since joining. I've learned so much in coming here and reading the guides and forum posts, but I can't help thinking that there is SO much out there that I haven't read/tried that maybe I'm missing something. But trial and error is the name of the game.

I just wanted to thank jknutson2 for putting into words exactly how I felt better than I could have myself.

Oh, and GO PATS!!!

Biff

[lordsmurf]

That guide is flawed. Things like DC10 are a horrible idea in TMPGEnc.

Your Guide tells us what to do or not to do.

DC component precision 10 bits
This controls the precision of the discrete cosine values used in the image compression (this translates the image into a series of interfering frequencies and lets the program eliminate frequencies that aren't visually relevant - this is similar to the compression used in JPEG images). Higher values results in better quality, at the expense of encoding time.

This guide explains the concept.
.

But the "concept" guide is full of bullshit. How can that help?

[trock]

Fascinating thread indeed. I feel for you, jknutson2.

After 9 months of voracious study at this and numerous other sites and a ton of midnight-oil-burning tests and experiments, and after many times feeling like you describe, I finally feel like I know what I'm doing (yeah, right!) and can provide most of what a client can throw at me without panicking like I used to. Thanks mainly to Google and the Search capabilities at these forums and much help from other members (and a long background in pro audio recording also helped).

BUT, that said, this is a dangerous plateau and one I've thought I was in before only to find a whole new can of worms to investigate, solve and learn. All the way along the journey I've logged my findings and results so that I don't have to take the journey again. Part of it has been a gradual recognition of what exactly I do need to know and what is not vital for me to know (even though it might be vital to another depending on his or her needs).

I've also finally (I hope!) obtained the exact mix of hardware and software that I need to handle most anything that comes up. What I have found is that there really is no "one true way" to handle what I'm presented with because every project has its own challenges depending on the source material and its intended destination and I always have to choose which route to take to get the best results, on an individual basis.

And many times in the past 9 months I was confused as to which that right route might be, especially as you'll find a lot of opposing opinions on this and other sites. After a while you learn who you're likely to get valid information from and whose information can be a mixture of good data and uninspected fixed ideas. And you have to learn to evaluate the data and sort the good from the not-so-good and do your own experiments and find out what's true for you.

I know you're frustrated by a seeming lack of the basics or good definitions of terms, as I was on many occasions, but I've also found the exploration of this subject to be quite fascinating and I've enjoyed the challenges of the problem-solving involved. I've also seen many others who have followed a similar path through this and other sites as I have and who've also reached a similar feeling of knowing what they're doing - even if temporary.

One thing I did find very frustrating about some of the guides is that they'd tell you what to do but give no explanation or reason as to why you'd ever need or want to do what they're recommending. But I did find some excellent basic guides for beginners that gave good overviews of the subject over at doom9.org and at http://nickyguides.digital-digest.com/index.htm as well as here. Lordsmurf's pages also helped a great deal.

I feel I have, very much thanks to the great people at this site (who bailed me out more than once when I had a client deadline and needed to find a very specific answer that day), actually gotten the basics down enough to think with them and make the kinds of decisions you're talking about on a daily basis. There are still exceptions - just last weekend I had to learn to learn some new stuff about Quicktime videos for the web, as opposed to .wmv videos. But there is light at the end of the tunnel.

One thing that has been very encouraging recently is that in the first 7 or so months I would come to this site every day and devour the new posts and always learn something new, but I've noticed that it's been kind of different recently and there's far less times that something totally new comes up.

The bottom line is that I owe this site and the people here a huge debt of gratitude. The subject is complex enough that without the help I've obtained here, it could easily have taken me years to have achieved the level of expertise that I now feel I have - even if it's a deluded false sense of security.

And there are people here compared to whom I am still very much a neophyte. And that's half the fun - knowing there is more to learn.

Anyway, good luck with your project - but it really doesn't have to take years to get the basics. The discoveries after you've gotten the basics, now those can take years!

trock