Video Storage Question

[lforte]

Re: Video Storage Question

I admit to being in over my head. After reading posts here a couple days, my head is spinning a bit. My question may have been answered here in some form, but I have not been quite able to pick it out. I am just a “mom” video amateur who is trying to wing it. Keeping this in mind, please keep it simple for me!

I have a media center PC (160GB hard drive) on which I have captured quite a bit of home video. I have it saved in DV-AVI format on my hard drive because I want to keep it in the most appropriate and flexible format to allow me to edit later (months, even years) in the most variety of editing programs. For example, someday I might want to take pieces and compile a video of one of my kid’s growing up for some special occasion or something.

I really would like to STORE this video somewhere else, and free up my hard drive. I would like to store it on DVD’s if this is reasonable or even possible, and if there is a way to later retrieve these videos to my computer and in a format for editing.

I have ArcSoft ShowBiz that came with the computer, and one of everyone’s favorites (HA) I’m sure, WindowsMovieMaker. I can take my DV-AVI file into Showbiz and burn it to a DVD which I can watch on computer or TV. I think the file extension becomes .mpg. Is this the same as MPEG?

I can copy the files from this DVD back to my computer. This is along the lines of what is on the disc:

ArcSoft
DVD Engine
VTS0
VTS1

Video_TS
Video_TS
Video_TS.VOB
Video_01_0.VOB
Video_01_1.VOB

When I click on the Video_TS file, it will open and play in WinDVD, but I am unable to open it any software program for editing. I assume I need to convert it to back to some type of AVI file before I can edit it? And if this file was in fact burned in mpg format, why a VOB file extension? I'm a little confused.

Having said all of this (SORRY!), can the type of files mentioned here be brought back to an editable format, is there a simple software program that I can buy to accomplish this conversion. Will the DVDExtractor program mentioned on this forum do what I need, or is there a simpler more comprehensive user-friendly program on the market?

And finally, do you think this is even a reasonable method of storing raw video? How do you people keep your old video saved when you want to keep open the possibility of later editing?

If you guys/gals can help me out here, then you are truly the best!

Lisa

[thecoalman]

Mpeg is not as suitable for archiving. What I do is set my capture program so that it creates 4.2 GB files. If they are AVI-DV you can get about 20 minutes per file. Each file can then be burned to single DVD as a data DVD. You only need to copy the file to DVD, no encoding, authoring etc. involved.

[lforte]

Mpeg is not as suitable for archiving. What I do is set my capture program so that it creates 4.2 GB files. If they are AVI-DV you can get about 20 minutes per file. Each file can then be burned to single DVD as a data DVD. You only need to copy the file to DVD, no encoding, authoring etc. involved.
_________________
Thanks. Burning to a DVD without encoding sounds like a plan, but one that I'm not quite sure how to do. I'm embarrassed that I apparently don't know this, but just how do you make a data DVD? I had assumed that I would do this from outside of any editing program as you said...just take the AVI file from where it is stored on my computer and use "Copy" to copy it to the DVD. Obviously that is not the solution because I have tried and it didn't work. Then someone told me you couldn't copy an AVI. file to DVD. Could you provide a bit of detail as to how and what you use to burn the AVI file to DVD? Is there some secret to making it a data file?

And later, I assume you could then just import from the DVD directly into your editing program, and be good to go, yes?

Thanks Again!

[thecoalman]

Then someone told me you couldn't copy an AVI. file to DVD.

Coughcoughcoughbullshitcoughcough :P

You can't burn it to DVD and expect it to play in a regular standalone DVD player, some do support that though. You can copy any file to DVD.

Could you provide a bit of detail as to how and what you use to burn the AVI file to DVD? Is there some secret to making it a data file?

And later, I assume you could then just import from the DVD directly into your editing program, and be good to go, yes?

Depends on the capabilities of your burning program, Windows doesn't natively support copy and paste to DVD disc.

Generally Just open up your burning program, find the selection for data disc, pick the file to add to your project and burn it. It's fairly simple. You can always open up the help file on whatever program your using to burn for step by step instructions. Note that your not going to be using DVD editing, creation etc. software for this but a butning program such as Nero or Roxio.

[babyboo]

Were the DV-AVI files transfered from a MiniDV camcorder? If so, you can simply hang on to the original MiniDV tape and transer them to the computer down the road...or...you can output them from your hard drive back to MiniDV tape for archiving. A single tape can hold the same amount of DV footage as several DVDs can. Just a thought.

[lforte]

ahhh...o.k. I know I've got at least Roxio....I'll check it out.

Thanks for steering me in a direction!

[thecoalman]

Were the DV-AVI files transfered from a MiniDV camcorder? If so, you can simply hang on to the original MiniDV tape and transer them to the computer down the road...or...you can output them from your hard drive back to MiniDV tape for archiving. A single tape can hold the same amount of DV footage as several DVDs can. Just a thought.

I only use a DV tape once so I always have the original. I don't trust it though and prefer to have copies on DVD which will be transferred to the next medium once it comes around.

[edDV]

If these are important home videos originated in DV format, you will want to keep them in DV format for archiving. Moving the files to DVD in MPeg2 will lower the quality substantially. In the future you will be watching these files on a large screen HDTV and you will be glad you saved the DV-AVI originals.

You need an archive stratagy. Here is a suggestion.

1. Keep the camera original material on MiniDV tape (or Digital8) for the next year or so. One hour tapes are affordable now, approximately $2.50-$3.00 in quantity or on sale.

2. Save your DV format edit masters (edited material) in one of these ways. I keep both a DV-AVI master and a authored MPeg2 DVD master. The latter can be used to quickly duplicate DVDs without reauthoring.

- record back to MiniDV tape (WMM has an option to record back to camcorder if you look carefully through the export menus)

- store on HDD and keep buying new HDDs as you need them. A 200GB HDD will hold about 14.5 Hours of DV-AVI. Tape may be a bit cheaper but you will save the time it takes to record back to tape. On the other hand, the HDD is more subject to failure.

- record portions of your edited video to a data format DVD 20 min at a time. A current DVD holds about 20 min of DVD-AVI format. This can be a time consuming solution and these DVDs will not be playable unless they are copied back to a HDD or tape or until a 32x DVD drive is made.

3. Continue with the above for a year or so until the new Blu-Ray (or other high density format) DVD has come down to a reasonable drive and media cost. Blu-Ray DVDs hold 25GB per layer or 50GB per double layer DVD. This will be your permanent archival medium for your DV-AVI material. All of your MiniDV tapes and DV-AVI material on HDDs can be copied to Blu-Ray discs freeing the tapes and drives for other use.

About the time Blu-Ray takes hold, camcoders will be moving from DV to HDV (HDTV) format. The new HDV format will be using the same MiniDV tapes that we use today for DV.

[ZAPPER]

Don't panic or freak out. You say that your head is spinning and that you are in over your head? Well you have come to the right place. If anyone can make your head spin more, they are here.

STEP 1 Slow down, get some coffee grab a smoke just relax. You have some time to learn to do what you want to do. Jumping in head first is fun for some and frustrating for others. I say read up just a little more and things will start to fall into place.

STEP 2 I am guessing that you are shooting with DV tape of one type or another. I suggest, as most should, that you keep the original tape "as is" for future use and storage. It is the purest, best copy of whatever it is that you shot that you will ever have. Use good quality tape to start with. As for what is the best tape? Well that is always open for debate. I think that as long as you are useing a good name brand you will be fine. Treat them with a little care and store them safely.

STEP 3 Back up for archive or working copies. Well it looks like you know that there are a few choices, all with pros and cons. Back up tapes of a couple of different styles. Back up to harddrive in a few different ways. And the back up to DVD that you are asking about. The big thing I would say is to first get it on to your PC and then trim out any unwanted material. Get rid of anything that you pretty much know that you will not use or don't ever want anyone to see, Lens cap shots (unless there is audio that you may want to save) Shots of your feet, camera left tapeing on the table, what have you ( I have done all of these and more). Basically it is a rough edit to save some space, you don't have to do this and some purest will advise against it so as not to loose any momments that you may change your mind about later. I just kind of call it making a best of version and run with it. A full one hour tape takes three DVDs to save DV AVI as raw data. If you dont fill the tape or if you edit out the unwanted stuff two disks just seem more freindly and if you go for the only the best of approach you can get it down to one disk.

STEP 4 Save you files. Depending on your software you may have to save your movies in shorter chunks to be able to burn them easier. Just make a folder and save the first part to that folder and make as many as needed. Check out your system and software. If you have a DVD burner, some where, some way, you will be able to burn these files to a DVD as data files. I had Roxio with my first set up and I liked it but I didn't have a DVD burner. I would say to start out by reading the help on your pc and see if you can make what you have work. I am guessing that if you have a media center set up you will have a couple of ways that you can do it. Like I say, learn what you have before going crazy and installing something new.

[lforte]

Thanks, you all have been so helpful in breaking down my options for saving these files...as well as preventing my head from exploding. I had considered saving the DV tapes, but truth be told, I have already taped over some of the stuff that's been captured on computer. I guess I had thought that saving all the tapes might be a somewhat expensive proposition, but it sounds like it's really not all that bad and I may also go in that direction.

As far as making a data disc, I found a program on my computer called Sonic RecordNow so I thought I'd try a quick practice. I took a little 3 minute video (722 MB) saved as AVI and made a data disk on a DVD. That went fine. But then I wanted to make sure I could retrieve it back onto my computer to edit. Shouldn't I use "Copy" here? I don't think so because when I tried to copy it back to my hard drive (in order to import it into an editing program) it would try (saying 97 minutes remaining!), but after a few seconds I'd get a "Data Error (Cyclic Redundency Check)", whatever that means. So hopefully my last question...how do you get the data file back onto your computer and into your editing software. I am SO close here!

[thecoalman]

"Data Error (Cyclic Redundency Check)", whatever that means. So hopefully my last question...how do you get the data file back onto your computer and into your editing software. I am SO close here!

That means you have a bad burn. What kind of discs are you using?

[edDV]

Once it is in a DV-AVI file you can burn it to the DVDR just like any other data file. You will have greatest DVD format flexibility if you keep the files under 2GB each (~8 min).

When you copy the files from the DVD back to the hard drive, it will be a simple copy operation just like with any other file except these files will be very large. Don't expect the file to play from the DVD even on the computer. The DV format requires a fixed ~30Mb/s* for playback where current 8x DVD players peak at only 11Mb/s. The performance gap is wide.

I just copy my edited DV-AVI material back to DV tape. That gives me a faster transfer than to DVD and I can play the video directly from the tape. Transfer of the DV-AVI file contents to the camcorder can be done from WMM or other DV editing programs.

*25 Mb/sec for video + about 5Mb/sec for audio and metadata.

[lforte]

A Sony DVR+R. It said it burned successfully. Maybe I should try again.

So I should be able to just "copy" this file back to my hard drive, yes? And use it right away in the editing program?

[thecoalman]

So I should be able to just "copy" this file back to my hard drive, yes? And use it right away in the editing program?

Yep it's like having a mini external har drive. Do 3 things before you try again. Make sure you have the latest update from burning app vendor, got to Sony's site and download and install the latest firmware for your burner, if those two don't work try a slower burn rate.

Get some RW's for testing things, if you haven't gotten to the video creation point you'll be glad you purchased one because you make short test clips.

[lforte]

Good idea using the R/W. I'll do these things and try it again today or tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works...

Thanks!

[thecoalman]

Good idea using the R/W. I'll do these things and try it again today or tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works...

Thanks!

Yes there's no sense going through the entire process only to find out you did something wrong, don't like the results or it doesn't work. You can create short test in relativley short period of time.

[ronnylov]

Once it is in a DV-AVI file you can burn it to the DVDR just like any other data file. You will have greatest DVD format flexibility if you keep the files under 2GB each (~8 min).

When you copy the files from the DVD back to the hard drive, it will be a simple copy operation just like with any other file except these files will be very large. Don't expect the file to play from the DVD even on the computer. The DV format requires a fixed ~30Mb/s* for playback where current 8x DVD players peak at only 11Mb/s. The performance gap is wide.

I just copy my edited DV-AVI material back to DV tape. That gives me a faster transfer than to DVD and I can play the video directly from the tape. Transfer of the DV-AVI file contents to the camcorder can be done from WMM or other DV editing programs.

*25 Mb/sec for video + about 5Mb/sec for audio and metadata.

I think you mix up megabit per second and megabyte per second. DV is around 30 megabit per second and 1X DVD-speed is around 10 megabit/s. 8X DVD-speed should then peak at around 80 megabit/s.

If I can store 20 minutes DV on one DVD-R, and my 16 X DVD burner (NEC-3500) can copy a single layer DVD-R to my hard disc in 6 minutes (average read spead 10X), why should it not be able to play DV in real time from DVD? I think 3X DVD-speed should be enough because if you burn a DVD-R with 1X speed it needs 60 minutes. So at least 3X sustained speed should be enough to be able to read DV in realtime. But I haven't tried it so maybe I'm wrong...