Top quality professional transfer of 8mm and Super 8mm film

[Dubinvero]

Using the ideas and information I got on this thread, I gathered up my Super 8 films, which were originally shot between 1972 and 1983 and mailed them off to Cinepost/Posthouse in Atlanta. I chose Cinepost based upon the samples on their website, a review in PC magazine and a couple of discussions with Myron at Posthouse.

I sent my films via Fedex priority overnight. I had been told that the faster the method the less the likelyhood of a lost package. Based upon my discussions with Myron I understood the effort/cost required and on the workorder form chose a solution they call "Best Light" which they estimate requires 2-3 times the film running time. I sent them 21 rolls totalling 3200 feet. I requested that the masters be sent back to me on mini-DV tapes.

I got my DV tapes back in 2 weeks. At this stage I communicated with Clifford who told me their standard procedure is to hold onto the film untill the customer has a chance to review the quality of the transfer.

I was very pleased with the transfers. I just wish I had been a better cameraman. I had a few questions about individual 50 foot section transfers that I discussed with John who did the transfer work on my films. I was satisfied with his answers. He also looked again at one roll to ensure that a flare problem was on the film and not the result of the transfer.

About 10 years ago I had these same films transferred to Super VHS by an indivual who videoed the projected image. There is no comparison in the quality of the Cinepost transfers and the previous effort. As John explained to me the Kodachrome stock has held up very well and allows for excellent transfers. The newer Ektachrome does not do as well. Luckily for me I had very little Ektachrome.

Upon receiving my DV tapes I immediately made a backup tape copy. I will edit the tapes on my PC using either Vegas Movie Studio or Vegas. I will burn edited DVD'S now and again at a higher quality when the HD DVD recorders become available

In summary, I am very pleased with the transfer to video. Although many might think it expensive, I thought it was a reasonable cost to get a top-notch transfer of my family movie treasures.

I was very pleased with all of my dealings with Cinepost. Myron, Clifford and John were easy to talk to and were always available if I had a question.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, which prompted me to do something about my Super 8 Films before they were lost or deteriorated.

Derek

[BJ_M]

thank you for the excellent review

[marksk918]

i forgot to mention this place -- they are suppose to do a really good job and offer features no one else has (preview your tapes on line and edit on line)

they can send you a DV or dvd of the final output

http://www.homemoviedepot.com/film/index.php

has anyone tried their service? any comments?

[edDV]

i forgot to mention this place -- they are suppose to do a really good job and offer features no one else has (preview your tapes on line and edit on line)

they can send you a DV or dvd of the final output

http://www.homemoviedepot.com/film/index.php

has anyone tried their service? any comments?

I see they have added a direct HDD to MiniDV or Digital8 transfer (option3) but their copy still hypes direct to DVD which is a bad sign.

MPeg2 is not what you want for a master but is fine for a distribution copy.
Most cheap houses go straight to MPeg2 which is a no no. You want the DV master to preserve all original frames for post editing.

See this tutorial, he describes the issues well. I'm not necessarilly recommending his service. I haven't used it.
http://www.film-to-video.com/tutorial.html

Another good general service FAQ.
http://www.wood-land.com/Pages/faq.html

Bottom line, get at least an aerial telecine to broadcast quality camera transfer to DV master.
Mpeg2 should come as either a post or parallel process, never for the master. Best method is a Flying Spot Scanner transfer (see my post above).

[lordsmurf]

Not everybody needs, likes, or wants DV.
I'm not a fan, I don't deal in DV.
I'm proudly DV-free.

If they want uncompressed AVI, send me a hard drive too.
Or something like MJPEG or HuffYUV.

Or for MPEG-2, no problem. Burn to disc.
They can always revent back to uncompressed AVI (no real loss), edit in the editor themselves, and then re-encode.

Supplying them with I-frame MPEG-2 is also possible.
As is high bitrate (superbit) MPEG-2, when it's understood that latter editing is in the plans.

Not everything has to be DV. In fact, I don't think it should even be a standard for conversion. Use it only as shooting, as it was first intended.

[edDV]

Not everybody needs, likes, or wants DV.
I'm not a fan, I don't deal in DV.
I'm proudly DV-free.

If they want uncompressed AVI, send me a hard drive too.
Or something like MJPEG or HuffYUV.

Or for MPEG-2, no problem. Burn to disc.
They can always revent back to uncompressed AVI (no real loss), edit in the editor themselves, and then re-encode.

Supplying them with I-frame MPEG-2 is also possible.
As is high bitrate (superbit) MPEG-2, when it's understood that latter editing is in the plans.

Not everything has to be DV. In fact, I don't think it should even be a standard for conversion. Use it only as shooting, as it was first intended.

Uncompressed AVI to a hard drive or I-frame only MPeg could work but nobody offers either unless contracted as a custom job. Best would be uncompressed 4:4:4 RGB off a broadcast camera or flying spot scanner.

DV is the best you can get in their normal products. And DV is good enough for 8mm film. If captured correctly, DV can be IVTC'd back to individual frames (~16fps) for still picture extraction or frame by frame filtering.

Long GOP MPeg2 is not what you want.

[marksk918]

i looked found the film-to-video.com tutorial a couple of months ago. at first it looked informative, then it started to sound like it was saying "trust no one but me with your films".

i selected a reel and sent it to Wood-land Film Transfer for a sample transfer. for a film to minidv transfer, they use a 2/3" 3 ccd jvc broadcast camera to a pro-deck. i'll receive the sample on dvd. i'm going to send the same reel to Home Movie Depot next. another site i found was Digital Transfer Systems. don't know if they'll do a sample, but i'll contact them to find out.

i think home movie depot said they can go direct to dvd, but capture uncompressed to go back out to dv. i'll have to verify this.

[edDV]

i looked found the film-to-video.com tutorial a couple of months ago. at first it looked informative, then it started to sound like it was saying "trust no one but me with your films".

Yes the guy makes some good points but over does it from a negative sale prespective without describing his own capture process in detail. It comes off as unprofessional.

I look forward to a report on your samples. I've got about 5,000 ft. of family 8mm film to transfer prior to next Christmas. I just need the masters, I'll edit my own DVDs.

[BJ_M]

lot of good samples here http://www.foreverondvd.com/

they also do uncompressed 10bit transfers to your harddrive

[edDV]

lot of good samples here http://www.foreverondvd.com/

they also do uncompressed 10bit transfers to your harddrive

$0.25 per foot Canadian is a reasonable price. I need to look up the current currency exchange rate. Has anybody used these guys?

[BJ_M]

yes - i just learned about them from a friend doing a film in superduper 8 (wide 8) and he said the quality was awesome ..

in another thread here i posted a link to the company that custom builds thier equipmnt ..

[BJ_M]

only downside is that they can not currently do 16mm to HD

[marksk918]

I look forward to a report your samples. I've got about 5,000 ft. of family 8mm film to transfer prior to next Christmas. I just need the masters, I'll edit my own DVDs.

i have 3,400 feet (including 100 feet of super 8 sound) that i need to have done. i intend to do the same as you, but it seems the only samples i can get are on dvd, so i'll take what i can.

lot of good samples here http://www.foreverondvd.com/

they also do uncompressed 10bit transfers to your harddrive

i saw them, they're in canada. prices they're quoting on their site is $9 US (could vary based on exchange rate) for 50 feet of frame by frame transfer. that's an unbeatable price for that process!

i have the following questions put together to ask each company:

1. do they use a standard gate or enlarged gate. how is the overscan area of video handled (is there any loss of the picture around the edges)?
2. how do they transfer to dvd? is it straight to tape or to a workstation and then output to tape? if so, is it compressed or uncompressed on the workstation?
3. what transfer process is used?
4. what camera is used to transfer?
5. is the film inspected prior to transfer, are splices fixed? if cleaned, what process is used?
6. charge per foot
7. can they do sound film? how is the soundtrack transferred? (one company captured the film to a workstation, then did the sound, synched it and output it to tape)
8. will they do a free sample
9. what shipping method do they use (is the package trackable)
10. do they keep a copy on hand in case the package is lost in shipping?

i'm not that experience in video, so is the capture non-interlaced if it's frame by frame, but interlaced if it's done in real time? you can really see the difference on the stills on the forever on dvd site.

thanks!!

[edDV]

I look forward to a report your samples. I've got about 5,000 ft. of family 8mm film to transfer prior to next Christmas. I just need the masters, I'll edit my own DVDs.

i have 3,400 feet (including 100 feet of super 8 sound) that i need to have done. i intend to do the same as you, but it seems the only samples i can get are on dvd, so i'll take what i can.

The other house that seems too good to be true is Debenham Media Group http://www.3516.com/ that are doing 8mm transfers on Rank Cintel Flying Spot Scanners for $0.27/ft. They also do Super 8 and 16mm.

[edDV]

i'm not that experience in video, so is the capture non-interlaced if it's frame by frame, but interlaced if it's done in real time? you can really see the difference on the stills on the forever on dvd site.

thanks!!

The way its done with aerial transfer of 8mm (~16fps) to a broadcast 3CCD camera (29.97 fps interlaced, 59.94 fields per second) is with a projector shutter frame repeat process that results in both fields of a frame being captured at least once. Since the source is film, both fields are in time sync so progressive frames can be reconstructed from the two fields.

A flying spot scanner process captures each frame entact and then converts the 16 fps frame sequence to 59.94 fields per second tape with a field repeat process.

[vhelp]

I'm not nocking anybody here. But, I still don't get the bit about
the telecinng process for a 16 fps transfer.

First, my understanding of these old'er generation video devices
as in a 16 fps camera.. I'll assume that this is a 'progressive'
cam, shooting 16 frames per sec.

If a user then tries to capture it with a CAM, any NTSC camcorder..
be it Hi8 .. DV .. or older VHS-C .. etc. these would all be
29 fps interlace.

What puzzles me, and the talk about Telecining this. And, if
memory recalls, I read somewhere, talk about 24p for this. This
confuses me because again, the video is 16 fps. My question would
be, "what good is a 24p, if your source is 16p ?"
.
I don't know. I'm confused on this though. Anyways..

At first, I thought. Simple. Just get a camcorder capable of
reduing the fps down to 16 fps *OR* adjust to 32 fps. Later, in
the post process, eleminate one frame, making it 16 fps, 'progressive'
again

But, maybe that is not as easy as pie after all.

Then, I thought, maybe.. if your cam shoot progressive frames, you
can adjust that given cam to whatever fps will give you back 16 fps
in the end (during post processing) But, I don't know if that will
work - though it looks like, (to me) it will.

Then, there is the last other option. To just ust a good Quick CAM
or USB type cam, and capture it at 640 x 480 full progressive frame.
With these type of cams, you can adjust the fps to as low as 1, if
memory recalls. This is your best bet.
.
And, I would assume that all one has to do, is learn a good process
to capture the video to the Quick CAM.

I still believe that a Quick CAM (or variation) is the best route
to take on such an endeavor. And all this talk about a (for instance)
DV (assuming the talk was aimed at using a DV cam) is not the way
to go, *unless* what I described above (shooting at 32 fps) would
work (or variation thereof) for this. So far, I can't see any
mathematical method of Telecining 16 fps to 24p or 30i because
(16 * 2) = 32 fps. PAL conversions from NTSC speed up up the NTSC
23.976 fps to 25 fps. But, I can't see the math behind this for a
16 fps to 30 (aka, 29.976 fps) ..even if Telecine method was used.
I could be wrong, however

-vhelp 3445

[marksk918]

lot of good samples here http://www.foreverondvd.com/

they also do uncompressed 10bit transfers to your harddrive

just called, phone service has been disconnected.

[BJ_M]

lot of good samples here http://www.foreverondvd.com/

they also do uncompressed 10bit transfers to your harddrive

just called, phone service has been disconnected.

you must of dialed wrong - i just called them and they are there

1 (519) 746-5708

[marksk918]

you must of dialed wrong - i just called them and they are there

1 (519) 746-5708

i see that number now. i tried (705) 745-0805 which appears on the left side of the screen.

thanks!

[edDV]

@ vhelp and others

Well first 16fps 8mm film has nothing to do with 24fps film telecine technique. It is done in a different sequence.

Film to tape is an obsure art and can be done in various ways with different compromises. I'm not an expert but here is what I think is being done.

First 8mm frame rate is only approximately 16fps. There is no crystal oscillator, the mechanical camera's linear speed can range probably +/- 10 to 20%. Remember those wind up springs?

8mm film projectors have linear speed controls that are adjusted to make motion look approximately normal to the eye. These speed controls are also used to match film speed to video field rates to minimize flicker. Just as PAL telecine slightly speeds up film 4% from 24fps to 25 fps, 8mm to 29.97fps NTSC requires some speed tweaks.

As mentioned above some techniques like flying spot scanner capture film frames one by one and then use different techniques to reach video field rates (interlace) or progressive frame rates. Here are some, I hope an expert will explain more completely.

>8mm ~16fps to 29.97 fps NTSC progressive capture.
Simple way, slow projector ~7%to 14.99fps and repeat fields in a f1a-f1b-f1a-f1b-f2a-f2b-f2a-f2b sequence. This works but has jerky motion resolution.

To smooth motion, the intermediate repeated frame could be interpolated in some way. One way, might be a field sequence like this
f1a-f1b-f1a-f2b-f2a-f2b-f2a-f3b.

Alternatively a digitally interpolated intermediate frame could be calculated.
f1a-f1b-f12a-f12b-f2a-f2b-f23a-f23b.

In both cases above the real frames f1a-f1b and f2a-f2b can be extracted through an inverse process.

>8mm ~16fps to 29.97 fps NTSC live video capture to video camera.
In this case tricks could be played with projector linear rate and shutter plus video camera scan rate and shutter to achieve a smooth video transfer. Here is where some black art is used by the transfer houses to get the best result.

The process may run realtime or require field sequence processing as a second step. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel here, I would prefer that the transfer house explain their process so I can compare it to my needs.

My needs for the master are:
1. A resonably high quality capture at the film frame level.

2. Smooth NTSC (framerate) raw YUV component playback at 29.97fps so it can be directly stored on DV (8 bit 4:1:1) or Digital Betacam (10 bit 4:2:2) tape.

Uncompressed 16fps progressive YUV in (4:2:2 or 4:4:4) or RGB (4:4:4) on hard disc is a possible alternative.

3. Simple original film frame reconstruction so that I can extract stills, filter each frame and/or transcode to other formats like 480p (24, 30 or 60fps), 720p (24, 30 or 60fps), 1080i 30fps, 1080p (24 or 60fps). If you can extract the original frame sequence, any future transcode is possible including PAL frame rates.

[BJ_M]

8mm i understand is ussually played back at 20fps for conversion to ntsc -- at least two high end systems advertise this ... and say 8mm is really filmed out at 18fps , not 16fps ...

i really dont know - as i deal with 35 and 70mm (24, 30, 48 and 60fps)

[edDV]

8mm i understand is ussually played back at 20fps for conversion to ntsc -- at least two high end systems advertise this ... and say 8mm is really filmed out at 18fps , not 16fps ...

i really dont know - as i deal with 35 and 70mm (24, 30, 48 and 60fps)

8mm exists in 16 or 18 fps according to the FAQs. 20fps (19.98fps) is a 2/3 multiple so field sequence might look something like

f1a-f1b f2a-f1b f2a-f2b f3a-f3b f3a-f4b f4a-f4b

Just so they explain what they are doing and there is an inverse path to original frames.

[BJ_M]

i'll post a reply I got on how they do 8mm transfers in case you are interested (i contacted them about some work i need done) :

In case anyone wants to know, we use a 'Sniper Pro' from
MovieStuff and a 850-line 3-CCD Sony broadcast camera fed through
component out to a Decklink Extreme and capture in 10-bit
uncompressed SD (no HD until I can justify the economic sense). We capture
frame-by-frame at only about 6 or 7 fps.
marksk918 was right about the wrong number. I totally forgot about the
graphic with our old phone number from Peterborough. I fixed it this
morning. : )

[vhelp]

TGIF everyone

Telecining and IVTC ...

I'm more interested in the Telecining process of 16 fps to
30 fps (29.970 fps) and the IVTC method to use in this
setup.. looking along the lines of a software base Telecine
method inplace of something that might be hardware 'ish

The way I'm seeing it, is like this..

The source 16 fps is:

* A - Shot w/ a field-based camera (dv cam or other) @ a given fps
* B - Then, a special Telecine process in implemented to bring
the *new* footage to a respectable frame rate (for later IVTC)

I realize that the above is just an example scenario, and that there
are various other methods to produce a given setup for a finished
Telecine process, with IVTC in mind for later reconstruction.

Appropriate Bitrate after math / Telecine ...

The other side of the coin to all this, is the bitrate. How will
this effect the best method. In my mind, because the film originate
at 16 fps, the bitrate should be within this focus, but if such a
telecine is emplemented, and depending on how much the conversion
to a new frame rate, (ie, 16 fps --> 29.970 fps) what effect would
it have on the final transfer to a new medium (assuming DVD) and
bitrate. If a telecine is implemented as 29.970 fps, than that would
mean some interlacing of frames. That would result in a need to
increase the bitrate. If an IVTC is devised in conjuntion to the
telecine, my assumption would mean back to 16 fps. However, (thinking
along the line of PAL conversion [ie, PAL from NTSC] where a speed up
is employed, (after telecine) could, in theory, incorporate a IVTC
back to say, 24p if the conversion was geared for 16 fps to 24p, and
then a telecine process implemented to make the 24p (film) to 29.970 fps.
Here, the IVTC would bring the (converted) 29.970 fps back down to
the new 24p -- pfew.

So, the way I'm invisioning it, is like this..

16 fps --> 24p (aka, film) --> Telecine_to_29.970 fps

then, with IVTC planed..

Telecine_to_29.970 fps --> IVTC --> 23.976 fps.

This is all assuming that the process is based on a converion to
a Film type setting -- pfew.

.
.

This, I am interested in, because I would like to attempt a similar
process in other areas of my video endeavors.

Telecining..

I'm also thinking (after realizing the above) that a hardware type setup
is not mandetory, and instead, a "software-base" Telecine process could be
implemented in-place of the hardware

After being given a small digital camera (some time ago) ..I was attempting
to do some exploring of it's capabilities. It's an el-cheapo, but it works
for these and other experiments of mine in my free time.

specs: 640x480 / R/G/B 24 bits / shutter range: 1.5-1/2400 sec

Anyways..

-vhelp 3446

[marksk918]

what's everybody's opinion of cleaning solutions used on the film to remove dust, fill in scratches, etc?

[BJ_M]

the best always was TRICHLOROETHANE, but it not allowed anymore to be used ...

see here for more info -- the most common is ussually neumade , which you can get almost anywhere and is used a lot

..

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hse/solvent.jhtml?id=0.1.4.5.16.4&lc=en

if you use a wet gate - it will help a LOT , but is a lot more money also ..

[mikel]

I took care of a college 16mm film collection (appx 1000 reels) for about 25 years.
These were inspected, cleaned and lubricated after each showing.
Removal of dust or grit was VERY IMPORTANT.

ANY grit or grime that would collect on these would get caught in the film gate pressure plate of a projector and cause dark scratches if on one side or light scratches if on the emulsion side. BAD NEWS!

The name of the lubricant was " T F L-1 Lubricant"
(made by Technicolor ) that went into the inspector machine to lube the films. I know that it kept the films from getting
brittle and drying out, and reduced the friction that might cause the film to jump. It did not seem to help with the colors shifting to red after 20 years or so...I think that was mostly a storage temperature problem.
(film likes to be kept cool & in the dark)

Possibly a check with Kodak would locate something like this stuff.

I can remember that very new films and the old stuff seemed to benefit the most.

When the inspector machine was down, we used white cotton gloves
soaked in this solution and ran the films through our fingers with a
manual hand-crank film winder.

The other important bit was to keep projector film gates as clean as possible....especially on the small format films (8mm & S8 ) as
even a small scratch becomes so much more noticable on them.

hope this helps....
mikel

[BJ_M]

the stuff to use for lubrication and protection is "filmguard"

http://www.film-tech.com/products/filmguard.html

[BJ_M]

some people also use whale oil -- but it can not be used on new ester based films or mylar base (rare) , but is used on old films ... whale oil is not easy to find though i bet .. and filmguard is more proven ...

" T F L-1 Lubricant" i think was banned some years ago as people that came into contact with it have about a 50% chance of getting cancer -- it was deadly stuff (contained TRICHLOROETHANE 1,1,1) that soaks through the skin .. old cans of it should be turned over to a toxic waste center .. and not even the can touched except with rubber or silicon gloves.

I cant be positive that was one of the ones, but it rings a bells - but a whole bunch of film chemicals were found to be really bad shit over the years...

[mysts]

A few years ago I looked into transferring some 8mm film to the computer and here is what I found. First you need a scanner that will copy 35mm film. Make an adapter for 8mm film out of cardboard I think.
Then lay a strip of film on the adapter and scan it. Then lay another strip of film on the adapter and scan it, and etc. Then there was a program called 8mm2avi that would take all the scans, remove all the sprocket hole stuff then put the strips end to end and output one avi file that could then be edited or processed otherwise. If this rings a bell for anyone please do reply.