JVC DRM10SL or Pany DMR E55

[nickyboy4]

Which is recomended?? Both have RAM
Is the pioneer 320 better and worth the extra money? (no RAM)
How about the Lite-on 5005?(no RAM) but claims to handle -r as well as +r

[lordsmurf]

I would put

#1 JVC
#2 Pioneer or LiteOn
#3 whichever loses #2 slot

maybe #4 or so would be Sanyo

and like #11 or so would come the Panasonic

[pippas]

I guess we all have different experiences - I have a Panasonic E55 which I have found to be excellent -- and I use my LG4160 writer to read and transfer DVD RAM recorded on it, for editing on my computer.

On the other hand, my friend bought a JVC DRM10 here in the UK, and although the recording quality seemed very good, it has had to be returned for repair (or replacement) after only a few weeks use (it refuses to record or play anything!).

So, for me, the Panasonic would be my first choice!

But only my opinion!

[ckwok1]

How about the Lite-on 5005?(no RAM) but claims to handle -r as well as +r

Although Lite-on 5005 ables to write to DVD-RW, DVD+VR mode is used instead of DVD-VR mode used in JVC (-RW/RAM) or Panasonic (RAM).

[samijubal]

If you want problems get the JVC, if not get the Panasonic.

[mracer]

1. Panasonic
2. Everything else

Detailed explanation below:

There is no perfect DVD recorder. I can make a better looking DVD with an ADVC-100 and Procoder 2 on a computer, but a DVD recorder is alot faster and easier to use. So for non-critical recording I like using a standalone DVD recorder. In my quest for a DVD recorder I have personally experienced (owned) the Panasonic E55, LiteOn 5101, ILO (LiteOn) DVD04, and RCA 8005. I kept the E55, all the others went back.

Panasonic E55: audio is recorded in Dolby Digital 2.0, audio is IN sync with video in all recording speeds, playback while still recording on DVD-RAM, has a poor manual but toll-free telephone support and setup explanation DVD video, good build quality, good remote control, proper color and black level recording, flexible recording speeds (anywhere from 1-8 hours, many others are 1,2,4,6 hour only), awesome stereo tuner, good quality input TBC, 3D Y/C seperation, 3D input noise reduction, playback block and mosquito noise reduction, drive mechanism not noisy, DVD-RAM format has the best features for recording video, Will playback both DVD+R and DVD+RW perfectly despite no mention in the manual, 6 hour mode is not great, 8 hour mode is not good enough for me to use.

LiteOn 5101=audio way out of sync to video, audio is recorded in MP2 format, terrible remote control range, poor build quality, no stereo tuner, blacks are dark green not black, everything recorded has incorrect colors with a green tint added to the picture, even old B&W movies recorded from TCM.

ILO (LiteOn) DVD04=audio out of sync to video, audio is recorded in MP2 format, poor build quality, no stereo tuner, DVD+RW will not play on other DVD players, very loud drive noise during playback

RCA 8005=picture breaks up just passing though a signal and records that way on DVD+R/W, audio is recorded in Dolby Digital 2.0


Now my thoughts on JVC and Pioneer:

I have seen reports that the JVC DVD recorders have good picture quality but have some serious reliability problems. I have had build quality related reliability problems with several JVC S-VHS VCR's in the past, so I think this is the JVC way.

I have had problems with Pioneer denying warranty claims in the past. I have a $1200 MSRP Elite series A/V reciever that just quit working and they tried to say I had a lightning strike, which did not happen. This item was finally replaced after 6 months of fighting with Pioneer America when I took my case to my state's Attorney General.

[ejk71]

I'd also like to add, I have had a early panasonic e20 model for about 3 years and have never had a single problem with it, even after recording about 100+ discs. I took a chance with the JVC Model recently based on all of the raving about the picture quality, however, on my second day of owning the unit and on my second recording, it cut off during a live broadcast causing me to lose the program that I was recording, flashing the "loading" message on the front of the machine. This is a common issue with the JVC model. The JVC has a lot of potential but reliability is key in an investment like this, you don't want to throw money down the drain. I'd either go for the panny or wait until this issue is corrected by JVC in a future model.

[lordsmurf]

Anybody worried about the JVC "loading" issue should see this:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=241001

Most of this has already been worked out.

[richdvd]

I have seen reports that the JVC DVD recorders have good picture quality but have some serious reliability problems.

That's why I wouldn't touch JVC DVD recorders.
Very high number of returns due to cheap construction. The picture quality is maybe a little better than the Panasonic.....maybe. But the Panny is built like a tank.

[ckwok1]

I have seen reports that the JVC DVD recorders have good picture quality but have some serious reliability problems.

That's why I wouldn't touch JVC DVD recorders.
Very high number of returns due to cheap construction. The picture quality is maybe a little better than the Panasonic.....maybe. But the Panny is built like a tank.

I own a JVC DR-M10S for five months already and it never gives me any "loading" message except when it is first plug in the power socket. May be I am lucky so far.

But I have a question for those who said JVC is unreliable and actually own a unit -- Have you asked JVC to fix it ? If yes, did the problem appear again?

If the problem appear frequently and it can be fixed, I don't see why JVC does not want to fix it in all new units.

[Phil007]

Didn't think the JVC models supported dvd ram, if so can it do all the features the panny recorders do like time slip and chasing playback.

[Marvingj]

Pioneer is far the best, it is reliable & issue of warranty is only when you do not buy from a authorized distributor. But picture quality, solid-ness it is far the best of them all. Compare & see!!!

[zorankarapancev]

Panasonic consistently scores the best in every test review around the world. This brand has the best-rounded models regarding the quality of the recordings, reliability, flexibility and simplicity of use.

Have a look on the threads in this forum. It is obvious that the longest and most “popular” ones talk about fixing the problems of the DVD recorders. How many of them are about the Panasonic models?

These long threads visited by countless number of frustrated members are about the DVD recorders that are always highly recommended from a few frequent and loud “experts” on this forum. If you want to be a member of these groups and learn how to troubleshoot, repair and upgrade DVD recorders, then buy one of those machines. If not, buy a Panasonic.

The choice is embarrassly simple.

Marvingj
Posted: Dec 28, 2004 10:16*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pioneer is far the best, it is reliable & issue of warranty is only when you do not buy from a authorized distributor. But picture quality, solid-ness it is far the best of them all. Compare & see!!!

Marvingj,

I agree that Pioneer is good and reliable brand. That one will be my second choice.

[jrh1194]

I would recommend the Panasonic as your 1st choice. Works well, very few problems. Just read postings from others who have used the Panny. Pioneer is also a good option. I would rate the JVC down there just above Liteon or Ilo

[lordsmurf]

I just do not understand why so many people are in love with Panasonic DVD recorders, as they add macroblocks to ALL ENCODES beyond 2 hours, and tend to enhance the noise found in VHS tapes when transferred.

I just don't get it.
Maybe people love for video to look like shit?

Either that, or they ONLY use it for SP mode.

Panasonic is the oldest piece of equipment around, and it has not really changed in several years. It is old technology, and it shows.

[handyguy]

Pay your money, take your chances & see what you get.

[ejk71]

I honestly don't think DVD-5s or DVDs in general were meant to be used in the 3 and 4 hour plus modes with resolutions of 352x480 and extremely low bitrates, might as well make a VCD instead..But I myself soley use XP, but SP on rare occasions.

[ejai]

Didn't think the JVC models supported dvd ram, if so can it do all the features the panny recorders do like time slip and chasing playback.

Not so, The JVC does a very bad job of creating DVD-Ram files. I own a Panasonic E50 and the JVC M10, the Panasonic does a much better job of creating files with less artifacts than the JVC. The JVC shows occasional block noise throughout the video whereas the Panasonic showed none.

If you are going to use DVD-Ram then get a Panasonic, if you are going to use -RW then get a JVC. I personally like the picture quality of the Panasonic recorder especially if you have good source material. The JVC does have a slight edge but it's not as sharp a picture as the Panasonic. The filters on the JVC will cover noise but create a more softer effect and the Panasonic picture tends to be sharper.

That's my opinion. 8)

[jrh1194]

I guess the reason so many people like the Panasonic models is that they produce very good results. If you truly want to see crap, than watch a disc recorded on a Liteon or Ilo machine (especially if you play it back on a differant machine). JVC is ok but not as good as Panasonic or even Pioneer. There isn't anything magical about Panasonic...it just works very well...What is so difficult to understand about that?????[/quote]

[handyguy]

My Panasonic e30 has time sets for auto off. 2, 7 & 10 hours. I bet having them off makes them last longer.

[samijubal]

I just do not understand why so many people are in love with Panasonic DVD recorders, as they add macroblocks to ALL ENCODES beyond 2 hours, and tend to enhance the noise found in VHS tapes when transferred.

I just don't get it.
Maybe people love for video to look like shit?

Either that, or they ONLY use it for SP mode.

Panasonic is the oldest piece of equipment around, and it has not really changed in several years. It is old technology, and it shows.

I can't understand why anyone would go over 2 hours over pennies. Discs are far to cheap to go over SP.

[lordsmurf]

The answer is quite simple:

The 720x480 is overkill for most source.
Add to the fact that they use a low bitrate for that res. You're stuck at 5.0-5.5 bitrate. On a 3-hour 352x480 stream, you're at a superbit bitrate for that res, about 4.4 VBR.

And in theory (yet ONLY in practice on LSI chips and a few others, not Panny), the 2.5 352x480 should look equal to a 5.5 720x480. But it doesn't. That is a easy clue that the chipsets are majorly flawed. Crap resizing.

No matter how you slice it, PANASONIC ADDS MACROBLOCKS BEYOND 2 HOURS.

Then you have to realize there are MANY, MANY people that collect/record tv shows and movies. You run out of shelf space awful quick when you only put 1-2 hours on a DVD. For the casual baby-drool-video-parents, that's fine. But for people that want to record large quantities, it's going to get old awfully fast to have to locate 25+ discs just to watch one show. Especially if you know 4 hours and 2 hours are going to look the same in the end (if encoded correctly with good equipment).

And when you run a conversion business, you want to capitalize on any quality advantages you can get. Add to the fact that the LSI chips clean away VHS chroma noise whereas NO OTHER DVD RECORDER CHIPSET can do this.

LiteOn would be 100% as good as the JVC if it had opted for VBR instead of the DVD+VR required CVBR (constrained VBR, almost CBR). Pioneer is CBR, not LSI, but almost reaches the same quality. Not quite there.

And then lastly, the whole "JVC loading" situation is way overrated. It's gotten to be as bad as the "my data disappeared" and "VCD looks as good as DVD" type of posts. I put "Panasonic is best" posts in the same category as "Ritek is best" posts, that will all change once people start to see the serious quality flaws, and it's already started for Ritek.

Panasonic machines are full of problems: IRE issues, interlace flaws, and corrupt AC3 streams. It's hit-or-miss, but equally as common as JVC "loading" (if not MORE SO!). Some people see "nothing wrong" with the Panny visual artifacts or editing follies. And that's something I am just clueless on how to give a response. They LIKE the flaws, or have otherwise accepted them as "normal".

As I always say ... as long as I don't have to watch it, I don't care what you buy. Just giving some insight, not blind "buy it, it's great" kinds of advice.

[ckwok1]

I can't understand why anyone would go over 2 hours over pennies. Discs are far to cheap to go over SP.

There are shows more than 2 hours. Or when you use timer recording to record more than 2 hours. Or I want to use simultaneous recording and playback (Time slip, chase play, ... whatever) such that I can watch a show while recording another. If the recording quality is good, I don't see why not.

[ckwok1]

Pioneer is CBR, not LSI, but almost reaches the same quality. Not quite there.

I don't know the earlier model of Pioneer but I am sure Pioneer DVR-320S is using VBR.

[lordsmurf]

Pioneer is CBR, not LSI, but almost reaches the same quality. Not quite there.

I don't know the earlier model of Pioneer but I am sure Pioneer DVR-320S is using VBR.

The last tests I saw on the 220 was a CBR when viewed in Bitrate Viewer. It's been many months since that thread was on this forum. I tested a disc myself too. Can you run a stream through BV and post results? Or PM to me.

[ckwok1]

The last tests I saw on the 220 was a CBR when viewed in Bitrate Viewer. It's been many months since that thread was on this forum. I tested a disc myself too. Can you run a stream through BV and post results? Or PM to me.

Sure. I don't have the file nor the time now. But I should be able to do it tomorrow.

[ckwok1]

The last tests I saw on the 220 was a CBR when viewed in Bitrate Viewer. It's been many months since that thread was on this forum. I tested a disc myself too. Can you run a stream through BV and post results? Or PM to me.

Here is the scan. The video is recorded in 2-hour DVD-video mode on DVR-320S in PAL:



The image is captured in 1024x768 but resized to 640x480 so it is not very clear.

I have scan video files recorded in 1,2,3 (MN15),4,6 hour DVD-VR mode. They are all in VBR and the frame sizes are 720x576, 720x576, 480x576, 352x576??, 352x288.

Scan for DVR-310 in NTSC can be found in the post

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=245761

at Dec 03, 2004 10:45

[samijubal]

The answer is quite simple:

The 720x480 is overkill for most source.
Add to the fact that they use a low bitrate for that res. You're stuck at 5.0-5.5 bitrate. On a 3-hour 352x480 stream, you're at a superbit bitrate for that res, about 4.4 VBR.

And in theory (yet ONLY in practice on LSI chips and a few others, not Panny), the 2.5 352x480 should look equal to a 5.5 720x480. But it doesn't. That is a easy clue that the chipsets are majorly flawed. Crap resizing.

No matter how you slice it, PANASONIC ADDS MACROBLOCKS BEYOND 2 HOURS.

Then you have to realize there are MANY, MANY people that collect/record tv shows and movies. You run out of shelf space awful quick when you only put 1-2 hours on a DVD. For the casual baby-drool-video-parents, that's fine. But for people that want to record large quantities, it's going to get old awfully fast to have to locate 25+ discs just to watch one show. Especially if you know 4 hours and 2 hours are going to look the same in the end (if encoded correctly with good equipment).

And when you run a conversion business, you want to capitalize on any quality advantages you can get. Add to the fact that the LSI chips clean away VHS chroma noise whereas NO OTHER DVD RECORDER CHIPSET can do this.

LiteOn would be 100% as good as the JVC if it had opted for VBR instead of the DVD+VR required CVBR (constrained VBR, almost CBR). Pioneer is CBR, not LSI, but almost reaches the same quality. Not quite there.

And then lastly, the whole "JVC loading" situation is way overrated. It's gotten to be as bad as the "my data disappeared" and "VCD looks as good as DVD" type of posts. I put "Panasonic is best" posts in the same category as "Ritek is best" posts, that will all change once people start to see the serious quality flaws, and it's already started for Ritek.

Panasonic machines are full of problems: IRE issues, interlace flaws, and corrupt AC3 streams. It's hit-or-miss, but equally as common as JVC "loading" (if not MORE SO!). Some people see "nothing wrong" with the Panny visual artifacts or editing follies. And that's something I am just clueless on how to give a response. They LIKE the flaws, or have otherwise accepted them as "normal".

As I always say ... as long as I don't have to watch it, I don't care what you buy. Just giving some insight, not blind "buy it, it's great" kinds of advice.

That JVC had alot more problems than loading for me. Lines in every recording, the inability to turn off the noise reduction, making high quality sources look more compressed than they would without the noise reduction. Bad spots in a very high percentage of the recordings that were very rare in Panasonic recordings. For VHS the JVC looked cleaner, though at the sacrifice of the contrast/brightness of the original. On overly dark movies the JVC was a little better, on most movies the Panasonic is as good or better from my source. The picture is sharper and there isn't as much compression look because the noise reduction can be turned off. I have over 1000 DVD-R discs and I never went over SP on more than 20 or so of them.

[jrh1194]

It has been well documented repeatedly in this forum that the JVC has problems. Some have tried to downplay this fact. We all know that no machine is perfect, but as many have stated previously, the Panasonics produce very good results and are reliable. Plain & simple.

[lordsmurf]

ckwok1, that looks VBR to me.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

samijubal, nobody else has ever complained about "lines" being made by the JVC, so I still think you have either a bad signal, bad cables, or just a lemon JVC unit. I see that on my WB signal here, but I can find that in VHS recording and LiteOn recordings too. It's even worse seen on the computer, but it is NOT the recorder, it's the station.

The "brightness" issue is so subtle that you have to look hard to find it, it's not an IRE problem, and is no better or worse than the Panasonic in this regard. In fact, I find the JVC holds color a bit more. Most other recorders are a lot worse in this regard, retaining color, retaining contrast/IRE/etc.

The sharpness loss is very slight, and will never be observed on VHS transfers. You can, however, see it on high res digital sources (satellite, cable). It is there.

We are subscribers to different theories of video. I hold cleanliness above all else, and will accept slight loss of sharpness. You seem to hold sharpness above all else, and will accept grain and macroblocks. These two philosophies cannot co-exist unless you add a detailer (Vidicraft, SignVideo) to the picture, which is what I do. This allows sharp AND clean images.

If you have shelf space for 1000+ SP mode discs, then go for it. You're using the Panasonic at it's only really worthwhile setting, and you had an unusually bad JVC experience, so your views make sense.