Best DVD Recorder for VHS Transfer? Suggestions Appreciated

[UC2005]

Hey,

This is my first post, and I'm not 100% sure this is the right place for this but here goes.

I'm very interested in purchasing a DVD Recorder very soon and I honestly have no clue what to go for. I have a large collection of videos and I really want to convert them to save space and preserve their quality. So the main usage of the recorder would be to transfer VHS to DVD.

A lot of the tapes that I want to convert are professional wrestling pay per views that I've purchased over the years and the quality of the tapes isn't near what it once was. I just want to make back-up copies of the tapes, and I can give the VHS tapes to my brother, so I'll also free up some room as well. The thing is most of the wrestling events last around 3 hours and won't fit perfectly on a DVD. So, I guess I would need one that has flexible recording speeds and still gives pretty good quality? If anyone else has had any experience with transfering wrestling events to DVD from VHS, I'd appreciate any tips.

I've got ADS Instant DVD, which I've had mixed results with over the years by using mostly Home videos, but 3 hours through that isn't pretty because usually there are synch problems among other issues. I figured it would probably be easier and cheaper to just get a DVD Recorder and copy the tapes. Any suggestions from anyone if that would be the best idea and if so what specific recorder or method do you suggest? Playing with the amount of around $300. I could possibly go a bit more if necessary.


Thanks!

[handyguy]

I use a Panasonic e30 in LP mode, does 4 hours of vhs very nicely on one dvd-r. Vhs isn't very high resolution. You can't buy an e30 anymore, you can get an e55 or better.

https://www.videohelp.com/dvdrecorders

[Wingpal]

Each to their own on brands, I use a Sansui myself but thought I would bring it up that you will probably need a filter to remove the copy guard on your VHS tapes. I use an external VHS to dub with and a Sima CT-2 between the two which has worked very well on the past 60 or so tapes. Of course if they are not copy protected no problem.

[richdvd]

Panasonic E55....done hundreds of tapes. Always excellent quality.

[nickyboy4]

Can I just plug my 6 year old VCR into the Pany to make quick copies of my home videos? Is it that simple?

[richdvd]

If you want to do it right...use a TBC between the VCR and DVD Recorder.

[FulciLives]

TBC is short for Time Base Corrector.

A TBC is a unit that can stablize the video and works really well with videotape sources. Some consider using a TBC almost essential with any kind of analog video to digital video conversion process but especially when the source is a videotape.

You bascially have two choices here.

1.) DataVideo TBC-1000
2.) AVT-8710

The DataVideo TBC-1000 is around $300 USD and can be bought at a variety of on-line stores. Here are just a couple:

http://www.videoguys.com/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

The AVT-8710 is $250 USD and can be bought from AV TOOL BOX

Boith the DataVideo TBC-1000 and the AVT-8710 are what we call FULL FRAME TIME BASE CORRECTORS and are considered the better kind vs the other kind of TBC which is called a LINE TBC.

JVC makes a couple of models of S-VHS VCR's that have a built-in LINE TBC. There is the "lower end" JVC SR-V101US and the "higher end" JVC HRS-9911 and of these two models the JVC HRS-9911 is considered the better of the two models.

Some people use a VCR without a TBC but use a Full Frame TBC. Some people use the JVC with the Line TBC but no Full Frame TBC. Some people use both.

As for stand alone DVD recorders the Pioneer models work better than the Panasonic models but you will need a TBC of some sort. I should point out that almost all model/makes of stand alone DVD recorders have some sort of TBC built-in but they are usually very weak and this is so of the Pioneer models. The Panasonic models have a slightly better built-in TBC but sometimes it still is not enough hence the JVC S-VHS VCR's or the Full Frame TBC units I mentioned. The Panasonic models of stand alone DVD recorders are known to do some strange things in their formating of the DVD format. They should be avoided.

As I said I suggest Pioneer. JVC makes a model that probably has the best picture quality of all (would still need a TBC of some sort) but the JVC is known to "act up" and have problems that usually require a service call. This happens only to some people but enough that it seems to be a "problem" which is a shame since the JVC has the best picture quality. The Pioneer models though still have very good picture quality and seem to work really well with very few bugs (if any), hence my recommendation.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
You can find the JVC model S-VHS VCR's I mentioned above at:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
By all means though feel free to shop around.

[lordsmurf]

JVC DM-10S DVD recorder gives the best quality, hands down, no contest. Easy to use.

LiteOn and Pioneer units come in second. Easy to use.

Sanyo is quit nice too. Easy to use.

Sony has it's ups and down, but you have many happy users. Be wary that the RW media may give your grief.

I would avoid Panasonic, Cyberhome, and Toshiba. Some of those other no-names or low-names too. All kids of problems on these, ESPECIALLY video quality.

[handyguy]

buy.com has a dual layer recorder now:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=10383806&adid=17051&dcaid=17051

[Capmaster]

I'm delighted with our Panasonic DMR-E50 (the E55 is the newer version). Quality is always very good, and the unit is easy to set up and use

It has a built-in line TBC, and has flexible recording mode (intelligent bitrate adjusting on the fly).

The quality is so good that once we capped Starship Troopers 2 off satellite - probably the hardest movie to capture because of the flashing ...a macroblock nightmare The source material had macro blocks - we know because we were watching it at the time and cringing over the likely capture. Well, that Panny has such a good block filter built into its hybrid VBR system, it removed the blocks ....all of them, and we ended up with a superb-quality capture 8)

[nickyboy4]

Is the TBC in a DVDR/VCR combo the same as the one in DVDR?
I dont have alot of tapes to dub so I dont want to spend anything on a TBC, would the results be that bad?

[nickyboy4]

With the DMR E55 if I dub home VHS from an old VCR would the results be as good as the source? Better? I think you feel the E55 is better than the JVC or Lite-on of comparable price?

[lordsmurf]

The "line" TBCs in DVD recorders are pretty much worthless marketing ploys because they do almost nothing at all.

Gshelley and myself have really ripped through a lot of the myth surrounding TBCs over in the restoration forum and some threads here in the DVD recorder forum.

If you want a TBC ... BUY A TBC.

When it comes to improving VHS source, the only recorders I have seen perform this well is the JVC units (or others on the LSI chipset).

If you only want 2 hours of video on a disc, then any recorder will do, pretty much. If you want anything more, then avoid Panasonic and Philips, as they enhance grain and other artifacts, in addition to making it blocky.

The only way for people to see this is to either get discs made on these machines, or to test them all out on their own. I have never met a person that would take Panasonic 4-hour discs over JVC/Pioneer/LiteOn 4-hour discs, and I doubt I ever will.

[Capmaster]

Lordsmurf and I have always disagreed about JVC and Panasonic. It's a respectful disagreement - I don't try to change his mind, and vice versa. I have noticed none of the quality issues he mentions. I think the quality of the Panasonic recordings is excellent. So does my wife. But that's just us.

On the other hand, I have never owned a JVC product, nor will I ever. JVC has had a spotty reputation in the consumer electronics area going back to the '60s. They made a cheap product and I've sworn them off for life.

But in all fairness I can't say I have compared the two side-by-side. JVC might just have a better quality recording. Will you notice the difference? Lordsmurf can. Will you? Who knows?

Try and find samples from each to compare, if you can. Your own eye is always ...always the best way to judge something ...not forum posts Try to "buy" both from an electronics store that sells both and has a "no questions asked" return policy, like Circuit City.

Try them at home side-by-side and judge for yourself. Then return the one you don't want for a refund

[lordsmurf]

Try and find samples from each to compare, if you can. Your own eye is always ...always the best way to judge something ...not forum posts.... Try to "buy" both from an electronics store that sells both and has a "no questions asked" return policy, like Circuit City.

Exactly. 8)
I did this with about 15 or more recorders.
I do this still as I find time.

I keep the good ones.
Or sell them to friends/family for the same price I paid.

Bad ones went back to the store.

[UC2005]

Thanks everyone for the responses....

A question about LiteOn DVD Recorders, do any of them really block out macrovision?

[lordsmurf]

Thanks everyone for the responses....

A question about LiteOn DVD Recorders, do any of them really block out macrovision?

Not automatically. But they can be hacked to ignore MV.

[Captain Satellite]

Always been happy with my two Panasonic DVD recorders.

[pietrogz]

Hi guys,

I see this thread is kinda antique, but the fact is that some of us still need good DVD recorders. Any suggestions on the best DVD recorders circa 2012 for VHS Transfer/restoration?

I loved my JVC drm10 but it keeps dying & is getting tougher to fix these days..

Especially interested in PAL machines..

Pietro

[orsetto]

You will probably get flamed for resurrecting such an ancient thread, when many newer ones on the same question exist (and I'll get flamed for answering you, but what the hell, this topic is now totally passe anyway).

Choice in DVD recorders has all but disappeared since this thread began. Most of the better quality, popular models have been discontinued and some mfrs like Pioneer stopped making any recorders at all. In Australia, your two best options would be Panasonic and LG. Panasonic still sells a couple models with FreeView + Satellite tuners, and if you don't need a built-in tuner you can opt for the cheaper, nicer DMR-EH59 "global universal" model (which only records from line inputs like a VCR or external tuner box). Recently it seemed as if Panasonic was the last brand name standing in better-grade DVD recorders, but suddenly LG has popped back up out of the coffin with a few new models with advanced video encoders: you might see if those have trickled down to Aus since their introduction in UK.

All the above are DVD/HDD recorders, which make dubbing and editing/prep of VHS material much easier (you record to the HDD first, where you can edit-trim-rearrange, then make a high speed dub to DVD). If funds are very tight, you could look at another "direct-to-DVD" recorder with no HDD, similar to your JVC DRM10. Do note, however, these are now strictly bargain basement recorders with PQ and features well below what you had with the JVC. For better and worse, those old JVCs were unique and no other brand of DVD-only recorder ever produced quite the same image quality. The current Panasonic and LG DVD/HDD models will get you a lot closer than a current bargain DVD-only model. There's no appreciable difference between the various Panasonic models aside from tuner specs or lack of tuner, with the new LGs the higher-end models have upgraded encoder chips that may or may not be worth the premium cost.

LGs have an inconsistent track record for quality and durability, Panasonic pretty much parked itself in 2006 and hasn't changed their basic chassis since then. The only thing that ever goes wrong with Panasonics is the "dirty disc clamp" syndrome, where dust and finger oils accumulate inside the burner. This results in failure to recognize or burn discs. It can be remedied by opening the burner and cleaning off the spindle/clamp. Some people never experience this issue, others need to clean their drive about once a year. Cleaning instructions can be found on several recorder forums: just google "Panasonic DVD recorder spindle cleaning."

[sanlyn]

If you want to do it right...use a TBC between the VCR and DVD Recorder.

Most DVd recorders have built-in TBC circuitry to maintain fps status and some level of line-timing correction. Not a $5000 studio unit, but who can afford those?

[robjv1]

If you want to do it right...use a TBC between the VCR and DVD Recorder.

Most DVd recorders have built-in TBC circuitry to maintain fps status and some level of line-timing correction. Not a $5000 studio unit, but who can afford those?

Hey, it was good advice... in 2004!

[sanlyn]

If one can find a good line-level TBC for under $2500, go for it. If someone is using a frame-level TBC such as the AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 to fix line timing, or jitter, etc., the user would be in for a rude awakening. Most frame TBC's do defeat macrovision, but many DVD recorders used as pass-thru will also work (mine do). Macrovision isn't the only problem involved in tape playback. With non-protected tapes, you'll see no effects with a full-frame TBC except for helping to maintain a/v sync. But a good DVD pass-thru can usually do that, too. The best recorders I've seen for use as pass-thru were 2002-2005 era Panasonics and Toshibas, and I believe the early JVC's had usable TBC built-in.

I've seen the nice, smooth output from JVC and high-end "pro" Panasonics. I've also seen how they replace playback problems with brand-new artifacts that are impossible to remove. I'd rather go with pass-thru. Of course, finding any of this stuff in good condition is getting to be a needle-in-a-haystack search combined with a lottery.

[orsetto]

a good DVD pass-thru can usually do that, too. The best recorders I've seen for use as pass-thru were 2002-2005 era Panasonics and Toshibas, and I believe the early JVC's had usable TBC built-in.

The early JVC dvd recorders were *horrible* with VHS signals unless the tape was damn near perfect and/or "pre-treated" by playing in a VCR with built-in TBC/DNR. They are absolutely worthless for pass-thru: they can't clear macrovision and they can't fix anything else, either. The only advantage they had, and its highly debatable, was an overpowering noise filter that worked internally to clean up noise in the input signal as it was recorded to the DVD. The noise filter acted only on the recording dvd itself, was not passed thru line out, and could not cope with the slightest timing defects (it was strictly limited to concealing luma/chroma graininess). I bought a large number of JVCs in 2004/5 when I began a huge VHS dubbing project, based on the exaggerated praise for this input noise filter feature. After sinking a small fortune into them, I was not thrilled to discover the machines could not handle MV or timing errors without a boatload of external processing.

I agree the 2002-2006 Toshiba DVD recorders had interesting pass-thru features, as did some of the Panasonics, although when Panasonic is discussed the only model anyone really cares about is the ES10 (which had a uniquely capable error correction circuit unmatched in any other consumer passthru device). Most of the other Panasonics were unexceptional at passthru. Several members here recently posted of their success using inexpensive Philips/Magnavox DVD recorders for passthru error correction (at the expense of some color and luma shifts). Others have reported certain camcorders as having excellent passthru qualities.

I've seen the nice, smooth output from JVC and high-end "pro" Panasonics. I've also seen how they replace playback problems with brand-new artifacts that are impossible to remove. I'd rather go with pass-thru. Of course, finding any of this stuff in good condition is getting to be a needle-in-a-haystack search combined with a lottery.

The JVC and Panasonic VCRs with TBC/DNR feature eventually become a necessary evil to those of us with huge tape collections. The specific corrections and cleaning they perform while directly tapping the video heads cannot always be duplicated with a pass-thru device, esp the color noise reduction and luma grain suppression in dark scenes. Unfortunately as you've noted, this often entails a trade-off against other artifacts being introduced. I've been using this type of VCR more intensively than usual recently, and have discovered a competent (costly) overhaul can significantly reduce the negative effects of TBC/DNR. This is more obvious in the Panasonic AG1980 than the various JVCs: the Panasonic is less prone to some artifacts to begin with, but requires an extensive replacement of capacitors to show its advantages. Most old, unserviced Panasonics fall short of old, unserviced JVCs in color clarity but improve substantially after a recap and calibration. I had the opportunity to try a "renewed" AG1980 and it was quite remarkable (although still vulnerable to a luminance flicker effect on some tapes that JVC conceals perfectly).

[chowmein]

In Australia until recently there was only the latest Panasonic model available, but even that's discontinued now. What about a blu-ray recorder? They can still take a VHS signal and convert to DVD, yeah?

[sanlyn]

Again, thanks to orsetto for more clarification. As for the early JVC, I saw it mentioned once that only one of the earliest of JVC's DVD recorders had ever been recommended for recording VHS to DVD, and even that one had serious problems. I haven't seen where anyone had actually purchased that model, so I wouldn't expect to see one being sold now.

I assume BluRay recorders would have some form of built-in tbc. EVen then, I still don't understand why anyone would record aged, noisy, crappy old VHS directly to DVD, even with a beefed-up/rebuilt high end VCR that offered decent playback. I'd record to AVI and clean that up before throwing it at a DVD or BluRay encoder. I'll readily admit it's far more inconvenient to do so. But the expectation seems to be that even with a good VCR and a good digital recorder, the VHS will look like DVD or BluRay. It won't. It can't. I had 3 of those JVC/TBC players (plus 3 ruined tapes to prove it) and even recorded directly to DVD with good recorders. Yes, the results looked "better" than the the original VHS in several aspects. But when I watch those transfers today, I wish I hadn't discarded the tapes after learning how superior they would look and sound with some intermediate processing.

[davideck]

The early JVC dvd recorders were *horrible* with VHS signals unless the tape was damn near perfect and/or "pre-treated" by playing in a VCR with built-in TBC/DNR. They are absolutely worthless for pass-thru

I agree. The JVC is one DVD recorder that I do NOT recommend for TBC pass-thru. It tends to exacerbate actual timebase errors rather than correct them.

Philips and Toshiba DVD Recorders provide good TBC performance;
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2141140

[orsetto]

In Australia until recently there was only the latest Panasonic model available, but even that's discontinued now. What about a blu-ray recorder? They can still take a VHS signal and convert to DVD, yeah?

Panasonic is thought to be winding down production of DVD/HDD recorders, and its BluRay/HDD units have not sold nearly as well as expected so may be disappearing soon after the DVD models (Panasonic has been the only brand to make a significant push in consumer BD recorders outside the Japanese home market).

I would suggest you avoid this final crop of BD/HDD recorders. They have been optimized almost completely for use as BD players with HDD timeshift features for off-air and satellite TV recording: handling of line input sources and transcoding to optical discs is fussy, complicated, and unpredictable.

At this point, standalone disc recorders are all but obsolete and availability is rapidly declining worldwide. Unless you can find a decent DVD/HDD recorder (new or used, such as Panasonic EH-59), its best to face reality and start learning how to do PC capture of VHS. Yes, it can be tricky, and it isn't as idiot-proof as the classic 2006-era DVD/HDD recorders. But hardware breakdowns are user-fixable and there is a wealth of tutorials at all skill levels here and on other AV forums. I still have several backup DVD/HDD recorders I purchased at a discount when I saw the market souring in 2008, but if/when they wear out I'll be jumping back to the PC along with everyone else. There isn't any other practical choice: consumers have moved to streaming, web rentals, and HDD storage. Disc use is rapidly narrowing to commercially-recorded BD for playback only. The market for standalones with disc recording ability has evaporated over the last couple years.

[robjv1]

I assume BluRay recorders would have some form of built-in tbc. EVen then, I still don't understand why anyone would record aged, noisy, crappy old VHS directly to DVD, even with a beefed-up/rebuilt high end VCR that offered decent playback. I'd record to AVI and clean that up before throwing it at a DVD or BluRay encoder. I'll readily admit it's far more inconvenient to do so. But the expectation seems to be that even with a good VCR and a good digital recorder, the VHS will look like DVD or BluRay. It won't. It can't. I had 3 of those JVC/TBC players (plus 3 ruined tapes to prove it) and even recorded directly to DVD with good recorders. Yes, the results looked "better" than the original VHS in several aspects. But when I watch those transfers today, I wish I hadn't discarded the tapes after learning how superior they would look and sound with as little as some light-and-quick intermediate processing.

Watching those old transfers now, even if they were made with sophisticated VCR/TBC's, I see the annoying spots, flashes, rips, bad frames, etc., that not even the best of players could correct. I accepted them as facts of VHS life. That was in 2005. It makes me wish I'd kept those tapes for a proper re-work.

Do people really argue that though? Maybe it is just the way that it's worded, but I'd be shocked to hear anybody argue that the maximum potential of any single DVD recorder would be equal to that or above what can be achieved by a direct capture that is filtered at this point. Noise reduction alone makes it sort of a moot point in 2012 -- some of the SVHS decks and DVD recorders in tandem do a good job removing noise and suppressing grain, but even the best ones still had to do it in real-time with older technology -- and there is no DVD recorder or VCR that can do NeatVideo-level noise suppression, or even just at the level of the temporal noise reduction in NV. I'd love to see comparison screenshots that show otherwise -- I know I couldn't produce them with my DVD recorder workflow.

Still, I think DVD recorders are a good solution for many, many people. I have always found them easy to manage as part of a workflow, they are extremely time efficient, and with the right setup you can still get excellent results -- but I'd be surprised to hear anybody argue that it was the 'best' workflow though.

Just for reference, my DVD recorder workflow is JVC SR-W5U VCR --> SignVideo gear if needed for sharpening / color correction --> JVC DR-100S recorder. If I'm capturing to a capture card it's the same VCR --> SignVideo gear for color correction or at least just monitoring the black levels --> Diamond HD750, with sharpening handled on the computer.

My main observation in my setup is that the DVD recorder route turns out very good looking captures, but with a few flaws. For footage that is stellar and almost noise free, the DVD recorder workflow turns out noticeably softer captures -- you can see lost details especially in far away objects that are within dark areas of similar brightness, like say the texture of a wall on the far end of a dark room.

In footage that is noisy, the Diamond HD750 of course turns out extremely noisy captures in comparison to the JVC DR-100S, but you can filter it down with NeatVideo and the like to the point where you get a much cleaner, less noisy capture than the JVC deck can produce, and without sacrificing any additional high frequency details. Of course as you yourself would say -- it takes a lot of tinkering with those NeatVideo settings to find a happy place somewhere between a too-noisy image and a sea of plastic-faced people.

One thing I have often wondered is if there are any tendencies for people who work mostly with videotape sources to favor DVD recorders where people who work with film sources prefer capturing direct. Not sure why that may be the case, but it's something I have observed anecdotally from the preferences people seem to have and the sources they work with.

Also just as a note -- I am guessing it has to do with the fact that the JVC deck I use has a full-frame TBC built in which is suppose to minimize the issue, but I've yet to see the AGC issues with the Diamond HD750 that others have, with the exception of at the start of a capture. In other words, if I were to capture the same OSD blue screen from my VCR by starting and stopping it and then comparing the resulting videos, the gain level between each capture varies slightly in each at the beginning, but remains consistent throughout. Does anybody know a good stress test or a way to trigger it? I almost never do unattended captures or captures that I don't review when they are done, but it'd be nice to know if for certain tapes if I could just spot check them.

[sanlyn]

I can recommend only the recorders I've actually used and compared to others, hands-on. Panasonic DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES20, with the edge going to the 10's TBC. That's for the Panasonic addicts, and I'd recommend the Pannies for putrid, noisy tapes (good luck). For tapes that haven't been ruined by storing them in your attic, car trunk, or on top of your living room heater panels for the last 20 years, I'd go with my trusty Toshiba RD-XS34 and RD-XS35, with their y/c filters turned on and all other image controls turned off. Their Zykor encoders are terrific and can be configured in 2K increments if you're obsessive about totally filling a DVD disc; motion control you won't believe, especially if you've been using a Panny or JVC. Nice tbc, not as aggressive as the ES-10 but 'way better than the ES-20's. Can also edit and make menus in these guys. Rugged remote (are you listening, Panasonic?). Come with 2 manuals, over 100 pages each. Be prepared to do some reading.