best archival dvd media?

[archaeo]

I'm looking to find quality, archivally stable dvd media - Anybody have some experience with long term digital storage?

[archaeo]

Have any of you noticed any degradation of video data on your dvd's over a period of time (years)? I know that CD's theoretically have a shelf life of approx 10 years before the medium starts to lose its integrity.

[Goober57]

Have any of you noticed any degradation of video data on your dvd's over a period of time (years)? I know that CD's theoretically have a shelf life of approx 10 years before the medium starts to lose its integrity.

My Emtec DVDs started to fail after 6 months.

The code is CMC, which seems to have problems.

I was using Ritek but now only use Taiyo Yuden.


_________________

[archaeo]

I've also been using Ritek, but am also thinking of switching to TY - just don't know what the specs are for long term storage.

[samijubal]

Have any of you noticed any degradation of video data on your dvd's over a period of time (years)? I know that CD's theoretically have a shelf life of approx 10 years before the medium starts to lose its integrity.

You must be talking about CD-Rs. I've been using factory CDs since 1985, they still play fine.

[archaeo]

You must be talking about CD-Rs. I've been using factory CDs since 1985, they still play fine.

Actually digital data in general- whether it's on DVD's or CD's.
The reason I inquire is is that many archivists or curators don't expect a CD shelf life greater than 10 years - in time the digital data will break down on it's own, even under optimal storage conditions. I'm just seeing if anyone out there has any experience with long term storage of DVD data.

I thought I had heard somewhere of CD and DVD manufacturers that have created disc media that is designed to hold up for more than 10 years or so - 'archival' quality DVD media.

[kenmo]

I have cd-r that are 10 years or older. I've experienced no problems with them yet.

[archaeo]

I have cd-r that are 10 years or older. I've experienced no problems with them yet.

yes I'm sure that many people have CD media that have stood up for 10 or more years. But this is probably the exception rather than the norm.

[kenmo]

I don't have few 10 year old cd-rs. I have lots of 10 year + cd-rs.

Can you please point us to a link where a thorough study has been done on the longetivity of cd-r /dv-r media ?

Thanks

Kenmo

PS: I also have 5 or 6 Marx Bros movies on VHS that were purchased in 1981. These are commericial VHS movies and not copies. They still play as fine today as they did in 1981. And I was told VHS tapes would only last 5-10 years.

[lordsmurf]

archaeo, you're confusing too many things. Namely pressed metal versus dye. CD-R and DVD-R are not really all that anecdotal either.

"archival quality" is a marketing term for suckers.

Just use good media, verify the contents burned correctly, and then store it safely. Most people screw up one of these three stages and suddenly think their "disc went bad" on them.


Personally...
I have CDs that are probably 14 years old now, pressed discs. Fine. CD-R's that are about 7-9 years old. Fine. DVD-R's that are 3-4 years old. Fine. Pressed DVD's that are 9-10 years old. Fine. VHS tapes that are 25-27 years old. Fine. WHY? Because it was good blank media, the contents were verified, and they were stored properly. It's really just that simple. Some of the older tapes have started to degrade from use, and the old CD's have some scratches.... which slightly degrades quality at most, nothing is ruined or "gone".

[kenmo]

Lordsmurf, how do you store your cd-rs and dvd-rs ?

[kfc888]

archaeo
I like your logo. Is it came from a sci fri movie called The Day The Earth Stops Moving about 50 years ago?

kfc888

[lordsmurf]

Most of my CD-Rs (that matter) are in jewel cases. One that don't matter, and have failed in the years, were in wallets. Wallets ruin discs.

Almost all DVD-R's are in DVD cases or on spindles. Both are safe, if properly set on a shelf (no playing kickball with them or anything). Stored room temperate, dry environment.

[kenmo]

Lordsmurf, thanks for the reply. What is bad about the cd/dvd wallets ? I'm guessing maybe the discs bend or warp over time ?

How about the paper cd/dvd sleeves ?

[Weapon]

Actually digital data in general- whether it's on DVD's or CD's.

Digital Data does not degrade at all, only media. Just like Lordsmurf said, good media, verify writen data and good storage practices equals longevity.

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf, thanks for the reply. What is bad about the cd/dvd wallets ? I'm guessing maybe the discs bend or warp over time ?

How about the paper cd/dvd sleeves ?

Warps discs, submits them to scratches and other abrasions. Same for paper sleeves, terrible idea.

[archaeo]

Can you please point us to a link where a thorough study has been done on the longetivity of cd-r /dv-r media ?

I'm not sure where I heard that, but I will look for that particular source. I believe I heard it from a curator that had reservations about the reliability of CD's for long term storage (25+ years).

I have been referring to the publications of at least one recognized independent testing laboratory for some of my information - Media Sciences.

Here is their link that discusses the proper handling and storage of CD media. Longevity does seem to depend (as Lordsmurf says) on very careful handling of the media:

http://www.mscience.com/faq21.html

This next link discusses CD-R longevity, particularly degradation and 'end of life' indicators:

http://www.mscience.com/longev.html

[kenmo]

What jewel cases do you use the regular or slim one.? Or do you use DVD cases ?

Again thanks

[lordsmurf]

What jewel cases do you use the regular or slim one.? Or do you use DVD cases ?
Again thanks

Both. As long as the disc surface is not touching, just the hub.

[BJ_M]

blockbuster here has some cases where the dvd touches the cases in the outer part of the about 3-4mm , and ive had several of those disks not play the end of the movie (last 5 minutes or so) - which is a major pissoff ..

it looks like some people sit and spin the disk in the case i swear

[archaeo]

From http://www.mscience.com/faq21.html (on CD's):

The label side is especially susceptible to damage. Only a microscopically thin layer protects the metal layer and sensitive data pits that lie just beneath the lable surface. Any scratch will destroy data. Writing with a ball point pen or other hard object can ruin the disc. Use of any solvent based writing instrument will initiate irreversable degradation that will not be evident until days or weeks have passed. Adhesives from user-applied labels may chemically attack the protective layer and metallization.

Lordsmurf, I read in another post of yours that DVD's do NOT have the metal label sides, but plastic...? Are the label sides on (non pressed) DVD's therefore less resistant than those of commercailly available CD's?
I often use sharpies on my labels, which I believe has an alchohol base. Will alchohol pose a risk on these?

[bazooka]

Dvd-Ram

It was meant for backup purposes.

[archaeo]

From the National Institutes of Standards and Technology(NIST):
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/disccare.html

General recommendation for long-term storage conditions
For archiving recordable (R) discs, it is recommended to use discs that have a gold metal reflective layer.

a gold metal relective layer... now that will be an expensive disc.

Upon doing a further search, I read that the NIST, along with the DVD Association (DVDA) and several government agencies, has formed the Government Information Preservation Working Group. This group is working with the optical disk industry to set requirements for archival quality CD and DVD recordable media and to specify to the industry the minimum number of years that recordable CDs and DVDs need to last to meet their requirements. NIST researchers also are developing a test that media manufacturers can use to determine whether the CDs and DVDs meet the criteria for archival use.

For those of us who are interested in archival applications of optical discs, perhaps we'll have a more definitive set of standards about this topic in the near future..

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf, I read in another post of yours that DVD's do NOT have the metal label sides, but plastic...? Are the label sides on (non pressed) DVD's therefore less resistant than those of commercailly available CD's?
I often use sharpies on my labels, which I believe has an alchohol base. Will alchohol pose a risk on these?

You're confusing things. Let's try again...

DVD basic structure:

PLASTIC
|
FOIL
|
DYE
|
PLASTIC


CD:

FOIL
|
DYE
|
PLASTIC

See? No protection on CD. Markers on the foil may hurt it.

There is no such things as a "metal label" or whatever you were saying.


Pressed DVDs:

PLASTIC
|
PRESSED METAL
|
PLASTIC


Writing on plastic is fine.
The plastic may have a branded coating on it, inkjet label ... or nothing ("shiny" media).

[archaeo]

Some more info for those interested. It looks as if the archivability capabilities of CD's are better understood than DVD's at this point.

Many questions have surfaced as to the archive-ability, or long-term data archive integrity of DVD-R/DVD+R media. Those with a long-term memory may remember the emotionally charged archive-ability issue of CD-R media that was brought to the surface when Stephen St. Croix stirred the "pot" with his article in Mix magazine in July 1995. This article resulted in a scramble by the manufacturers of CD-Recordable media to refute Mr. St. Croix's claims and generalities, and document the shelf life of CD-R's manufactured using the three main organic dyes; cyanine, phthalcyanine, and stabilized metal azo. Independent laboratories published standardized, accelerated aging testing to get some "real" data on this issue. After the dust settled, Mitsui's "gold" dye (phthalcyanine dye), was widely accepted as the "archive" disc of choice, offering 100 plus years of archive life*. The manufactures who made discs using the industry's first dye, cyanine, had a pretty impressive, stable product of their own, offering 50 plus years of shelf life*.

In the arena of DVD, we have been waiting for an accepted industry test and standard to apply to the archive-ability of this technology. To date, this has not occurred. This gap of a certified archive-ability of DVD-R's seriously undermines the viability of DVD-R media as an "archive" reliable product. We would like to see the manufacturers of DVD-R media to quickly move to establish a testing procedure for evaluating shelf life for this media and publish fact-based articles highlighting accurate results. We are looking for accurate, objective information from manufacturers or objective third parties that would help our clients understand the limitations of this product as it relates to archive-ability and give the customer options based on real benefit of differentiation between various product choices and price points in the marketplace. We would like to move away from subjective, self-serving claims towards an independent laboratory's published standardized, accelerated aging testing for this media also.

[koolaidwa]

well its all organic dye for dvd's right?

thats what i heard

over time , no one knows really right now, it will fail , but who knows when, as lordsmurf says keep things idea conditions for starage and its going last long, and if u worry, do reg back ups every few years

[lordsmurf]

No. It's not all organic. I prefer the AZO material (metal particulates), because it tends to have better reflectivity, and thus "works" in more players.

[edDV]

This PDF study from U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology comes up first on google.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-6462-7431

[lordsmurf]

This PDF study from U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology comes up first on google.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-6462-7431

Nice, though brief.

[kenmo]

No. It's not all organic. I prefer the AZO material (metal particulates), because it tends to have better reflectivity, and thus "works" in more players.

Any recommendations of brands of DVD that are AZO ?

Thanks & Seasons Greetings....