Does this scare anyone?

[EvilWizardGlick]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/15/cryptography_research/
Cryptography Research wants piracy speed bump on HD DVDs
.....
""When a pirate makes a copy of a film encoded as SPDC, the output file is cryptographically bound to a set of player decryption keys. So it is easy when looking at a pirated work on a peer to peer network, or any copies found on copied DVDs, to identify which player made those copies," said Laren "When the content owner sends out any further content it can contain on it a revocation of just the player that was used to make a pirated copy."

"We picture a message popping up on a screen saying something like 'Disney movies won't play on your player any more please call this number for further information.' Or perhaps 'To fix this please call Disney with your credit card,' something like that anyway.

"We know that pirates can make copies by tapping the MPEG stream with modified players, or by making a bit for bit copy of the disk, or by using an analog attack (catching the film stream on the way to the TV over aerial cabling and re-digitizing it). But using this cryptographical binding we have forensic marking visible on the copy."

The neat thing about this process is that if someone makes copies for their own use, that can be enabled. Private individuals could be allowed to make copies for other players, even for their friends, and that's no problem.

It's only when a pirated copy is discovered coming back to a content owner (presumably watching P2P sites) that a player will get revoked, and that is only effective on content made after that point, with the revocation message in it."


Unless the player is in contact with the manufacturer just how will it KNOW to disable itself? Will it be in continual contact from the time of purchase?
This sounds f***ing scary to me. Yet more big brother's hidden access to peoples privacy.
I only posted a small bit of the whole article feel free to comment on the rest.

[andkiich]

This sounds like they will be trying to do a DIVX type thing with HD DVD.

If that is the case, then it doesn't scare me because no one wants to have to hook up their DVD player to a phone line or wireless network. This type of thing will probably fail in the market anyway.

It's either that, or if the format is adopted, you'll see a whole bunch of places with MOD chips that bypass the circuits that control that function.

The more sophisticated the technology for anti-piracy becomes, the more of a challenge the pirates will have and the more they will go after it.

Just my opinion.

[EvilWizardGlick]

The scary part was how casually it was mentioned. As if we should expect all our future devices to be monitored somewhere.
The interviewer never asked how the process would be applied. Again as if it were taken for granted that everything should be monitored.

[yoda313]

Hello,

This sounds like they will be trying to do a DIVX type thing with HD DVD.

If that is the case, then it doesn't scare me because no one wants to have to hook up their DVD player to a phone line or wireless network. This type of thing will probably fail in the market anyway.

Yeah I'd agree with that. No one will adopt a new system that has to be plugged in to the net to watch.

And what about the eventual hd-dvd car players???? How in the world would those be hooked up??? Who would want to pay for bluetooth connections for a car just to watch a movie?????

Kevin

[ViRaL1]

Hello,

This sounds like they will be trying to do a DIVX type thing with HD DVD.

If that is the case, then it doesn't scare me because no one wants to have to hook up their DVD player to a phone line or wireless network. This type of thing will probably fail in the market anyway.

Yeah I'd agree with that. No one will adopt a new system that has to be plugged in to the net to watch.

And what about the eventual hd-dvd car players???? How in the world would those be hooked up??? Who would want to pay for bluetooth connections for a car just to watch a movie?????

Kevin

Maybe they'll strike a deal with On-Star to piggyback on their system. It doesn't need constatnt connection, just authentication when you load a disc.

[RottenFoxBreath]

it wont matter anyways,if it can be played,it can be broken.
there will be some software and/or hardware alterations,so the people who matter will beat it.
always have always will.
sounds a bit like if its copied with a pioneer,it wont play on a pioneer.big deal.
by that time,ripping software(or whatevers being used will have advanced too),something people like these dont seem to calculate for.

[yoda313]

Hello,

Maybe they'll strike a deal with On-Star to piggyback on their system. It doesn't need constatnt connection, just authentication when you load a disc.

Yeah but my point is that most people won't want to sign up for an additional monthly fee just to watch a movie. You can still buy dvd players to add to a car. That car might be 15 years old and not have on-star. I'm just saying the "pay to play" option won't fly.

Kevin

[mats.hogberg]

Like said before - scary concept, but not scary in terms of what it will prevent me from doing...

/Mats

[bugster]

If it appears to you that DPA is really about making it harder for the "professional" pirate who makes a fortune from illicit manufacture of pirated goods, rather than about stopping college kids from using P2P networks to swap files, then you'd be right.

For real pirates, buying a new player every time they get a set of keys revoked is just an inconvenience, but for someone that is casually taking content and placing it on the internet, the loss of function on their personal devices will certainly reduce the activity to only the seriously committed.

In one sentence, they say they are targeting big time proffesional pirates. A few paras later, they say the big guys won't be bothered by it, only the casual ripper!

So which one is it guys, c'mon, tell us!

[bugster]

Most of you guys seem to have understood this different from me. No net connection or external connection is needed. All keys/data relating to this are held internally. Each player has a unique ID. Each disk can carry a list of machine ID's that are barred from playing this disk. No external 'phone home' required.

And what is "on-star"?

[yoda313]

Most of you guys seem to have understood this different from me. No net connection or external connection is needed. All keys/data relating to this are held internally. Each player has a unique ID. Each disk can carry a list of machine ID's that are barred from playing this disk. No external 'phone home' required.

Hello,

If that's the case then all anyone needs to do is crack the dispersal pattern of those keys and then they'll know which player uses which keys...

Kevin

[lordsmurf]

www.onstar.com

[EvilWizardGlick]

Most of you guys seem to have understood this different from me. No net connection or external connection is needed. All keys/data relating to this are held internally. Each player has a unique ID. Each disk can carry a list of machine ID's that are barred from playing this disk. No external 'phone home' required.

And what is "on-star"?

Those ID's would need updated. The first batch, unpirated, would have zero keys. The second would list the pirated keys, and the third even more keys.
But the first batch would still hold zero.
What could happen is other titles would carry the keys found for batch two and three. But it only matters if the keys come from the same studio. If you rip a single Disney title and never play a Disney title again, how can it affect you if the other studios don't carry the Disney keys?
But, if you allowed a copy for family and friends, and one of those posts a copy then you are screwed.
To find the keys would require monitoring of p2p groups. Naturally they could not find every key, just the most common.
The only way to keep the device updated is to maintain some type of regular continual contact.

[EvilWizardGlick]

www.onstar.com

http://www.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/20/t/000456.html
"While OnStar is committed to protecting your privacy, we cannot guarantee that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will never be disclosed in ways not described in this policy. Subscribers are cautioned that the privacy of any information sent via wireless cellular communications will not be assured. Third parties may, for instance, unlawfully intercept or access transmissions and private communications without our consent. In addition, OnStar may disclose personal information if required to do so by law on in the good faith belief that such disclosure is reasonably necessary to (i) comply with the legal process, (ii) respond to claims of a violation of the rights of third parties, or (iii) protect the rights, property or safety of OnStar, our users or the public. OnStar cannot accept any responsibility for accidental or inadvertent disclosure, unauthorized access or for other disclosure as required by law or described in this policy.

OnStar reserves the right to alter its privacy principles as business needs require. Any alterations to these principles will be posted on our web sites in a timely manner.

You take privacy seriously, and so do we at OnStar. It's our way of sustaining your trust in OnStar and our products and services. Afterall, your trust is what we value most...

OnStar Response to General Inquiries on Privacy Stemming from 9th U.S. Circuit Court Opinion on "Eavesdropping"

OnStar has recently received a number of inquiries from our subscribers and the public about whether OnStar has the ability to listen in to conversations in OnStar-equipped vehicles.

OnStar is committed to protecting the personal information of our subscribers.

The OnStar system does not allow monitoring of vehicle occupant conversations without notice to the occupants. When a voice connection is established, a light flashes, a phone ring is heard, and the radio mutes. In addition, a voice connection is normally audible through the stereo speakers, and vehicles programmed with text messaging can see the word "phone", a phone icon or another indicator of a telephone connection appear on the driver's instrument panel display. Moreover, OnStar's policy requires advisors to announce their presence immediately upon establishment of a voice connection.

In November 2003, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that an unnamed telematics company did not have to assist the FBI in intercepting and monitoring oral communications without the occupants' knowledge. Several news reports incorrectly identified OnStar as the telematics company involved with that decision. OnStar was not part of these legal proceedings."

GPS tracking in cell phones, the ability to connect to any cell phone anywhere anytime ( My brother in law worked on this one a few years ago) whether on or off, IRD chips in damn near every product, there is NO privacy anymore.

[vitualis]

Sounds like BULLSHIT to me.

There is absolutely no reasons why a hypothetically pirated disc (i.e., decrypted) should have any remnant of a key for any player. It makes no sense at all.

Regards.

[BJ_M]

its true that all recent cell phones can be used as listening devices even if "off" -- though the actual use this way is pretty limited at the moment ...

do be aware that in the usa - overseas faxs, calls and even your mail is often (always in some cases) checked and scanned ... this is not fantasy , but fact (and not only the USA either) , and in MANY cases - not only your out-of-country communications

[BJ_M]

The neat thing about this process is that if someone makes copies for their own use, that can be enabled. Private individuals could be allowed to make copies for other players, even for their friends, and that's no problem.

well this part is good- at least they reconize making a backup for your own use .. first time i have seen this allowed ...

and if this is the case - the rest of it really doesnt bother me as in that case , they should have no reason to close down p2p , etc ..



you do realize the next version of windows/cpu's most likely will be CLOSELY tied to this whole thing to make it possable ..

[EvilWizardGlick]

The neat thing about this process is that if someone makes copies for their own use, that can be enabled. Private individuals could be allowed to make copies for other players, even for their friends, and that's no problem.

well this part is good- at least they reconize making a backup for your own use .. first time i have seen this allowed ...

and if this is the case - the rest of it really doesnt bother me as in that case , they should have no reason to close down p2p , etc ..



you do realize the next version of windows/cpu's most likely will be CLOSELY tied to this whole thing to make it possable ..

So they say.
Remember the whole serial number debacle? How manufacturers wound up adding the option to disable the serial.
Or of if you run Xp you can download XP antispy that will disable all the things to worry about in XP.
I'm more worried about the cavalier attitude of acceptance. It only takes a couple of generations for it not to be questioned anymore.
Do you know the US military monitors it's game software and contacts those who are exceptional?

[bugster]

its true that all recent cell phones can be used as listening devices even if "off" -- though the actual use this way is pretty limited at the moment ...

Coming from you BJ_M, this is a surprising load of absolute crap

[BJ_M]

i read it off two different security sites that most late model cell phones can be enabled for monitoring - the off monitoring requires a modification , on monitoring requires no modeification (as they are always 'on' when on .. anyway - but your battery must die fairly quickly i would think .. ) .. audio and video devices are pretty wild these days .... as in size and what can be done ..


there was a lawsuit over an in car system that could be used to monitor in car conversations already (not on-star though)

[EvilWizardGlick]

My brother in law worked for one of the cell companies setting up their system. This was quite a few years ago. Then they could contact any cell phone on or off. They could literally track anyone through their cell.
This was before 2000, si I imagine there have been many advancements in that art since then.

Anyone fry an egg with a cell?
I read that if you place a call to a second cell, place an egg between the two ( clearly they have to be relatively close) that it will fry the egg in the shell.
Which makes me just a touch paranoid.

[bugster]

i read it off two different security sites that most late model cell phones can be enabled for monitoring -

there was a lawsuit over an in car system that could be used to monitor in car conversations already (not on-star though)

I work in the cell phone development business, and this is certainly NOT true of any phone that uses the GSM standard (PCS-1900 in the US) or w-CDMA. Other standards used in the US (and there are several!) MAY include this functionality I suppose, but I seriously doubt it.
I suppose it would be possible for certain law enforcement agencies to enable this feature by 'borrowing' the phone and installing a modified firmware, but if they did, battery life would be little more than 3-4 hours at best when monitoring was turned on.

As for in car systems, you may be right. There are certainly vehicle tracking systems used by trucking companies here in the UK with this capability, one of my colleagues helped to develop one. But their legality is highly questionable. I have also heard of US rental companies using similiar tracking systems on their cars but I don't know about using them to listen to the vehicles occupants.

[bugster]

My brother in law worked for one of the cell companies setting up their system. This was quite a few years ago. Then they could contact any cell phone on or off. They could literally track anyone through their cell.

On, yes, you can find out which cell it is currently in. If it is overlapping cells you can find that out too. With modern digital cellphones, under certain conditions, you can locate the user down to about 100yards, though the right conditions for this are rare outside of major towns and cities.

Off, no. Thats why it is called off. The radio is not powered, so cannot receive or respond to any signals. It is OFF. When a cellphone is off, the only thing still drawing power is the real time clock chip, if it has one.

Anyone fry an egg with a cell?
I read that if you place a call to a second cell, place an egg between the two ( clearly they have to be relatively close) that it will fry the egg in the shell.

Urban legend.

The average hand held Cell phone transmits about 1 watt. Try frying an egg with that! (I suppose 200 hours at 1 watt it might get 1 or 2 degrees warmer!)

[Cornucopia]

its true that all recent cell phones can be used as listening devices even if "off" -- though the actual use this way is pretty limited at the moment ...

do be aware that in the usa - overseas faxs, calls and even your mail is often (always in some cases) checked and scanned ... this is not fantasy , but fact (and not only the USA either) , and in MANY cases - not only your out-of-country communications

Quick low-tech way to bypass that: Remove your battery when turning off your cell. No way companies are going to put in a "secret battery" that is of such good quality that it holds a charge for hours or days on end of constant, un-recharged use. If they had that at a reasonable price point, they'd be using it already for the main battery.

Scott

[BJ_M]

better yet -- dont do anything not legal and dont worry about it if they want to monitor me talking to the babysitter at 4am

[yoda313]

better yet -- dont do anything not legal and dont worry about it if they want to monitor me talking to the babysitter at 4am

Hello,

You know that gets expensive after awhile

Kevin

[BJ_M]

not really , digital north america plan 250 ..

250 min anywhere in north america , no long distance charges or roam charges ...

[EvilWizardGlick]

its true that all recent cell phones can be used as listening devices even if "off" -- though the actual use this way is pretty limited at the moment ...

do be aware that in the usa - overseas faxs, calls and even your mail is often (always in some cases) checked and scanned ... this is not fantasy , but fact (and not only the USA either) , and in MANY cases - not only your out-of-country communications

Quick low-tech way to bypass that: Remove your battery when turning off your cell. No way companies are going to put in a "secret battery" that is of such good quality that it holds a charge for hours or days on end of constant, un-recharged use. If they had that at a reasonable price point, they'd be using it already for the main battery.

Scott

What is the deal with changing the chip in the back, under the battery, of a cell phone? I've seen it twice so far once on the BBc program Waking the Dead and once on the HBO program The Wire?

[BJ_M]

zombie phone?

[EvilWizardGlick]

zombie phone?

I thought it changed the ID somehow.