DV transfer (capture) poor quality problem

[meridklt]

I'm very new to this and have been struggling for over three days now to resolve my problem. I seem to have scanned the worlds Forums and search engines and can't find anyone with my same problem.

I have tried to transfer just a 30 second test film from both a DV JVC and DV Sony to my Dell 4300 using a 4 pin 6 pin Firewire cable IEEE 1394 connected to a Novatech 3 port PCI Firewire card.
Both these films have crystal clear colour and sharpness when played on my television, but when transfered to my Dell, they lose the crisp sharpness (being fuzzy) and the colours have a lack of luster.

I have tried no end of demo software from top of the range Adobe Premier down to DV10 (a brilliant little piece of software at only 32k), and all end up with the same poor quality AVI files with no difference as I can see between them (I read on some Forum that if I can't get an initial good AVI then no software can improve on that).

I borrowed a firewall cable that gave the same results as my own, so I'm begining to think perhaps its my Firewire Card, but before I go down the route of purchasing just a hunch, perhaps some knowledgeable person on here may be able to suggest something I should test or obtain.

Hoping someone can help a very frustrated newcomer.

[daamon]

Hi meridklt,

Welcome to the site and the forums... Just a shame it's not under better circumstances...

Here's a few things for you:

1. Try WinDV to "capture" your footage. You never know... There's also AVI_IO and DVIO (if you haven't used any of these already...)

2. Do you have access to another PC to capture to? This would be a way of testing your firewire card - if another works OK then it's a good sign it's your card.

3. The (small) possibility exists that the problem lies with the output port on your DV cam. If you can, try the tape in another cam on your PC and on another PC.

4. Just in case you didn't know... PC monitors display the picture in a way that's called "progressive". TV's display use "interlace". DV cams (mostly) capture and play interlace footage. Because of this, the picture on your PC monitor can look like there's horizontal lines appearing - especially where's there's fast movement or panning in the horizontal plane.

This is normal unless you're using a media player that accounts for interlaced footage.

But this doesn't explain the colour problem...

Look in the "Glossary" (top left of the page) for details on "progressive" and "interlace".

5. Can you take a screen capture of the AVI while it's playing and post the picture here? There might be something that someone sees and can comment on...

6. Work with the AVI anyway, produce either an (S)VCD or DVD and play that on your TV to see if it's just a case of the AVI doesn't look good on the PC but it's actually OK...

7. Have you adjusted the monitor's settings?

Can't think of anything else...

Hope that helps some. Good luck...

P.S. Where in the UK are you? Just out of interest as I've just left there to move to Melbourne.

[meridklt]

Thanks for helping daamon.

1. Try WinDV to "capture" your footage. You never know... There's also AVI_IO and DVIO (if you haven't used any of these already...)
I have tried no end of packages including WinDV and DV10, but will give AVI_10 a go.

2. Do you have access to another PC to capture to? This would be a way of testing your firewire card - if another works OK then it's a good sign it's your card.
Both films are great captured on my son in laws computer, but this was before I setup my own and he lives no where near me to stick my card in his.

3. The (small) possibility exists that the problem lies with the output port on your DV cam. If you can, try the tape in another cam on your PC and on another PC.
See above, this is using two DV cams, mine and my son in laws.

4. Just in case you didn't know... PC monitors display the picture in a way that's called "progressive". TV's display use "interlace". DV cams (mostly) capture and play interlace footage. Because of this, the picture on your PC monitor can look like there's horizontal lines appearing - especially where's there's fast movement or panning in the horizontal plane.
My son in law mailed an AVI to me from the DV Soni I used and this is viewing great on my computer screen.

5. Can you take a screen capture of the AVI while it's playing and post the picture here? There might be something that someone sees and can comment on...
What size should the picture be for posting on here ?

6. Work with the AVI anyway, produce either an (S)VCD or DVD and play that on your TV to see if it's just a case of the AVI doesn't look good on the PC but it's actually OK...
The finished DVD is exactly the same as the poor quality AVI.

7. Have you adjusted the monitor's settings?
See my answer to question 4

P.S. Where in the UK are you? Just out of interest as I've just left there to move to Melbourne.
Bedhampton which is just outside Portsmouth.

Again thanks for trying to help.

[daamon]

Thanks for helping daamon.

No problem - Just a few thoughts on things to try...

What size should the picture be for posting on here ?

Big enough to demonstrate the problem. Filesize limit is 150Kb. I'd say do it at 500 x 500, and save as a JPEG.

Bedhampton which is just outside Portsmouth.

I was along the coast in Brighton.

Hmmmm..... Have you tried un-installing and re-installing the card. See here for how to do it, if you're not familiar.

Also, what DV codec do you have installed?

[jimmalenko]

2. Do you have access to another PC to capture to? This would be a way of testing your firewire card - if another works OK then it's a good sign it's your card.
Both films are great captured on my son in laws computer, but this was before I setup my own and he lives no where near me to stick my card in his.

3. The (small) possibility exists that the problem lies with the output port on your DV cam. If you can, try the tape in another cam on your PC and on another PC.
See above, this is using two DV cams, mine and my son in laws.

4. Just in case you didn't know... PC monitors display the picture in a way that's called "progressive". TV's display use "interlace". DV cams (mostly) capture and play interlace footage. Because of this, the picture on your PC monitor can look like there's horizontal lines appearing - especially where's there's fast movement or panning in the horizontal plane.
My son in law mailed an AVI to me from the DV Soni I used and this is viewing great on my computer screen.

From what I read above, it is unclear to me if you used your camera on your SIL's computer, or you used his ?

I think we can narrow it down to your camera or your firewire card (or possibly even your firewire cable), depending on your answer to my first question.

[guns1inger]

The clip your Son-in-law sent - was it DV avi ? He may have converted it to a progressive codec, such as Divx, just to keep the size down. If this is the case, it is not representative of your problem.

[davefx]

have you enabled the HQ flag? all my DV transfers look like hell until i turn on the HQ flag. while on my mac, i understand this as it uses quicktime for DV. but on my PC its the same when using VEGAS or other transfer software.

i always have to set the HQ flag, and the only way i know how to do that is with quicktime pro on the mac or the pc (or an app called "high qaulity" its free and in the tools section of this site - but mac only). it doesnt matter which computer i use, the DV looks bad until i set the HQ flag.

[meridklt]

Very many thanks for your help chaps.

Here are 2 pics illustrating my problem.
Good one http://www.btinternet.com/~meridklt/dvd/good.jpg
Poor one http://www.btinternet.com/~meridklt/dvd/bad.jpg

daamon wrote:-

Have you tried un-installing and re-installing the card. See here for how to do it, if you're not familiar.

That says “Un-install card using Device Manager” My card did not come with any sortware to install, but which one (or both) do I remove from the ‘Device Manager’, is it ‘1394 Bus Contoller’ – ‘VIA OHC compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller’

What DV codec do you have installed

Don’t have a clue, where do I look

Jimmalenko wrote:-

From what I read above, it is unclear to me if you used your camera on your SIL's computer

I shot a 30 second test film in my own DV JVC and also my son in law’s DV SONI. Both viewed great on my TV, but after transfering to my PC both had very poor quality. Then son in law transferred both onto his computer and quality is great.

I think we can narrow it down to your camera or your firewire card (or possibly even your firewire cable), depending on your answer to question above.

I did try son in law’s firewire cable on my computer, which did not improve things.

guns1inger wrote:-

The clip your Son-in-law sent - was it DV avi ? He may have converted it to a progressive codec, such as Divx, just to keep the size down. If this is the case, it is not representative of your problem.

Yes his was DV AVI, and mine are DV AVI.

Davefx wrote:-

Have you enabled the HQ flag? all my DV transfers look like hell until i turn on the HQ flag. while on my mac, i understand this as it uses quicktime for DV. but on my PC its the same when using VEGAS or other transfer software.
i always have to set the HQ flag, and the only way i know how to do that is with quicktime pro on the mac or the pc (or an app called "high qaulity" its free and in the tools section of this site - but mac only). it doesnt matter which computer i use, the DV looks bad until i set the HQ flag.

Must admit to being a bit thick on this one Dave. I use ‘Windows Media Player’ to view my AVI files and I don’t see anything about HQ.

[NightWing]

Bare with me. Have a cold.

What is the OS are you running with what service pack etc.

DV is largely dependent on the codex on the host system. All the Firewire cable is a pipe. Simular to a net connection. It adds nothing to the video. If bad would be like a bad mp3. Would not physicaly play or would look like it went through a meat grinder.

For example here is the same AVI DV file but different codex. All that was changed was the header "four letter" code telling the system which to use.

Left is Canopus vs Microsoft.


The onlt thing I can think of is the Codex is bad on your system.

[davefx]

i agree. i am a bit thick on it too when it comes to the pc. i do not understand why i need to do this when i capture with vegas.

looking at your pictures though somethings definately funny somewhere.

just one question: when you get a "bad" transfer, is it jagged looking at all? like curves and diagonals are not smooth?

after seeing the last post with the different codecs' pics, i'd say start looking there. the canopus doesnt look very good.

wish i could help more, but i primarily transfer DV in osx, then after editing transfer over to xp for mpeg2 conversion. apparently mac uses quicktime dv codec (?) which hasnt been an issue for me.

but now i am a little confused, because tmpgenc needs to open the DV file with a dv codec. i wonder which one it uses?

[jimmalenko]

DV is largely dependent on the codex on the host system. All the Firewire cable is a pipe. Simular to a net connection. It adds nothing to the video. If bad would be like a bad mp3. Would not physicaly play or would look like it went through a meat grinder.

For example here is the same AVI DV file but different codex. All that was changed was the header "four letter" code telling the system which to use.

Left is Canopus vs Microsoft.


The onlt thing I can think of is the Codex is bad on your system.

I'm with him now

In your "capturing" program, you must be able to specify which DV codec to use. I would suspect that your SIL has a different codec, and that quite possibly yours has gone haywire. Typical codecs include Panasonic DV Codec, Canopus DV Codec, plus a couple of others that are in the tools section under the codecs banner.

[Flight13]

just one question: when you get a "bad" transfer, is it jagged looking at all? like curves and diagonals are not smooth?

This is the case with my captures. Not severe but the jagged lines are there.

I'm lost with this codecs talk...how do you change the codec on your system to see if that's the problem?

[davefx]

the jagged lines suggest the HQ flag isnt set for some reason, also the washy color.

unfortunately the only way i know on a pc to set this flag is with quicktime pro. there may be another way, or someone else can help suggest a codec that does not use the HQ flag. if so, i'll also install it on my PC because i have the same problem you do. setting the flag cures it.

[Flight13]

How do you set the HQ flag? I upgraded the Quicktime player to Pro but I don't see any option for that.

[meridklt]

Once again, It’s a big thanks for your help.

davefx wrote:-

when you get a "bad" transfer, is it jagged looking at all? like curves and diagonals are not smooth?

No Dave, all I get is as the poor picture example.

NightWing wrote:-

What is the OS your running with what service pack etc.

I’m using WinME (same as my son in law who has no problems) and I don’t know what you mean by service pack.

Both Nightwing and jimmalenko are of the view I shoud be investigating the codec route. However, I’m clueless in that department. In simple terms can you explain where I go to find them on my computer. Then are they ‘files’ that you install and uninstall, because I don’t seem to be able to find any mentioned in Add/Remove.

Could you advise which codecs I should be trying, and then when I find them, how do I install them (thats if they are not self install files).

I did as jimmalenko said and went to Canopus_DV_Codec but how do I find out if I have any of these on my computer DO NOT INSTALL this CODEC on a machine with a DVRexRTPro - DVStorm - DVRaptorRT - DVRaptor - EZDV - Xplode – RexFX

[daamon]

That says “Un-install card using Device Manager” My card did not come with any sortware to install, but which one (or both) do I remove from the ‘Device Manager’, is it ‘1394 Bus Contoller’ – ‘VIA OHC compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller’

That's right - there's no software. You need to uninstall the hardware - I'll check on my PC (at work at the moment) and tell you which it is. I don't want to tell you the wrong one. My belief is that it's the "VIA OHC compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller".

What DV codec do you have installed

Don’t have a clue, where do I look

I've not used it (not needed to) but Codec Sniper sounds like it will do the job. I'll download it to give it a trial and may be able to help more.

List all your DV codec(s) here... They're four letter codes, starting with 'dv??'. If you can list the actual name too (i.e. Panasonic etc.) then that'd be grand.

My suspicion, too, is that it's your codec - especially based on others comments and the picture example above.

Also, use either GSpot or AVICodec on your good and bad DV AVI to get the codec that was actually used for the respective DV AVI file. List those here too.

AVICodec also tells you what codecs you have installed, but doesn't remove them (like Codec Sniper says it can).

Have you ever installed any codec packs?

Must admit to being a bit thick on this one Dave. I use ‘Windows Media Player’ to view my AVI files and I don’t see anything about HQ.

I've never heard of a HQ flag - either from personal experience or in all the time I've been doing DV capture and reading guides and in the forums. I'm not saying it's not valid, but in my experience it's DV cam -> firewire cable -> firewire card -> DV AVI on pC as long as you have a DV codec installed. No setting of flags etc.

I'm wondering if it's MAC specific or just linked to the Quicktime DV codec.

[daamon]

Both Nightwing and jimmalenko are of the view I shoud be investigating the codec route. However, I’m clueless in that department. In simple terms can you explain where I go to find them on my computer. Then are they ‘files’ that you install and uninstall, because I don’t seem to be able to find any mentioned in Add/Remove.

Could you advise which codecs I should be trying, and then when I find them, how do I install them (thats if they are not self install files).

See my previous post for part of the answer (you were posting while I was typing...). "codecs" are system files, and so won't appear in the Control Panel -> Add/Remove that you refer to.

They can be removed, but it involves going through Device Manager (I think, can't remember). Then there's the tool (Codec Sniper) I mentioned that says it can do it - but, like I say, I've not used it.

"Good" codecs (based on what I've seen people recommend here) are, but not limited to:

Panasonic DV Codec
Canopus DV Codec
Mainconcept DV Codec

There may be others that are considered "good". The Microsoft one is OK (IMO).

Codecs usually (should) come with installation instructions.

I did as jimmalenko said and went to Canopus_DV_Codec but how do I find out if I have any of these on my computer DO NOT INSTALL this CODEC on a machine with a DVRexRTPro - DVStorm - DVRaptorRT - DVRaptor - EZDV - Xplode – RexFX

I believe that these are all products (see here) from Canopus, and probably come with the DV codec already, or installing the codec will adversely affect them. If they are all software, they should (hopefully) show up in Add/Remove.

[meridklt]

I really appreciate all your help daamon, if ever you require any racing pigeon advice, then I’m your man.

daamon wrote:-

List all your DV codec(s) here... They're four letter codes, starting with 'dv??'. If you can list the actual name too (i.e. Panasonic etc.) then that'd be grand.

Not sure what you mean – did a search for files and folders on the PC and got loads of files and folders begining with dv– whats the affix of the file called?

Also, use either GSpot or AVICodec on your good and bad DV AVI to get the codec that was actually used for the respective DV AVI file.

I used AVICODE and both the good (remember this was not captured on my PC) and the bad are:-
V. codec name is 'Sony Digital Video' – A. 1 codec name is 'PCM'

Have you ever installed any codec packs?

Never to my knowledge

[meridklt]

daamon, we crossed posts.

While I was typing my previous post the AVIcodec was running and lo and behold the codecs and filters tab refreshed and I got a bucket load of codecs on my PC.

cvid;Cinepak® Codec;1.10.0.6;Radius Inc.;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\iccvid.dll
divx;DivX Video for Windows Codec;5.0.5.830;DivXNetworks, Inc.;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\DivX.dll
i420;Microsoft H.263 ICM Driver;4.4.3396;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msh263.drv
iv31;Intel Indeo R3.1;1.10.0.6;No company info;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ir32_32.dll
iv32;Intel Indeo R3.2;1.10.0.6;No company info;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ir32_32.dll
iv50;Intel Indeo® video 5.04;R.5.04.15.2.41;Intel Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\ir50_32.dll
iyuv;Intel Indeo(R) Video YUV R2.0;V2.00.00.00;Intel(R) Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\iyuv_32.dll
m261;Microsoft H.261 ICM Driver;4.4.3396;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msh261.drv
m263;Microsoft H.263 ICM Driver;4.4.3396;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msh263.drv
mp42;Microsoft MPEG-4 Video Codec;4.1.00.3920;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\mpg4c32.dll
mpg4;Microsoft MPEG-4 Video Codec;4.1.00.3920;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\mpg4c32.dll
mrle;Microsoft RLE Compressor;4.90.3000;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msrle32.dll
msvc;Microsoft Video 1 Compressor;4.90.3000;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msvidc32.dll
tscc;TechSmith Screen Capture Codec;2.0.1;TechSmith Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\tsccvid.dll
uyvy;Microsoft UYVY Video Decompressor;5.3.0000000.900 builMicrosoft Corporation;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msyuv.dll
vdom;vdowave;2, 1, 1, 2;VDOnet LTD..;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\vdowave.drv
yuy2;Microsoft UYVY Video Decompressor;5.3.0000000.900 builMicrosoft Corporation;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msyuv.dll
yvu9;Video Codec;5.4.4.1005;Logitech Inc.;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\lvcodec2.dll
yvyu;Microsoft UYVY Video Decompressor;5.3.0000000.900 builMicrosoft Corporation;Microsoft Corporation;C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\msyuv.dll

[daamon]

I really appreciate all your help daamon, if ever you require any racing pigeon advice, then I’m your man.

Only an Englishman could say that... Thanks for the offer! No problem - I've learnt so much from the kind people here that it's only fair to pay back by doing the same...

List all your DV codec(s) here... They're four letter codes, starting with 'dv??'. If you can list the actual name too (i.e. Panasonic etc.) then that'd be grand.

Not sure what you mean – did a search for files and folders on the PC and got loads of files and folders begining with dv– whats the affix of the file called?

Sorry - My mistake. I should've said "Use AVICodec to list all the video codecs and then list the DV related ones here. I suspect that they may not all start with "dv??", but the description AVICodec gives will hopefully identify them as DV.

I used AVICODEC and both the good (remember this was not captured on my PC) and the bad are:-
V. codec name is 'Sony Digital Video' – A. 1 codec name is 'PCM'

Hmmm.... Both clips were created using the same codec (Sony), yet one's not so good. Curious.

Given the following...

I shot a 30 second test film in my own DV JVC and also my son in law’s DV SONI. Both viewed great on my TV, but after transfering to my PC both had very poor quality. Then son in law transferred both onto his computer and quality is great.

...from earlier, I'd say that this definitely eliminates your camera and cable (as you tried your Son-In-Law's too, to no avail) as the problem.

All that's left is either a corrupted codec (Codec Sniper may help here) or it's the card. I can't think of anything else...

Have you ever installed any codec packs?

Never to my knowledge

Well, that removes one possible problem...

[daamon]

Crossed posts again . I'll have a look and post back shortly...

EDIT: Hmmm.... I've read and re-read the list of codecs. They're definitely video codecs, but is that the complete list?

I ask coz I can't see any DV codecs listed... Maybe someone can review and confirm my suspicion?

[edDV]

I'm missing something fundamental here. DV is encoded in the camera and suffers no loss in transfer unless it's a data stream corruption. If you think it has suffered transfer errors, do this test. Transfer it back from the disk to the camcorder and see if you see a difference in a A B comparison on an attached monitor.

If you are trying to view it at the computer, don't use the computer monitor. Use an attached TV. Computer monitors are wrong by definition. They operate in progressive RGB color space and have linear gamma. If the ultimate goal is viewing on a TV, never make quality judgements from a computer monitor.

As for the two jpgs, assuming the same source, the second one has been compressed.

[daamon]

DV is encoded in the camera...

I never knew that. But, thinking about it logically, I guess it's obvious.

That would explain why both the good and bad DV AVIs have the same Sony codec... . My apologies, meridklt...

But, nonetheless, I'd say you have no DV codec installed (if it's a complete list of video codecs) and that the problem isn't with the camera or the cable.

Try Codec Sniper to see what that brings up (not just in terms of loaded codecs, but any problems).

Then install (say) the Panasonic DV codec and re-try your DV AVI capture and review the quality of that...

[meridklt]

edDV wrote:-

Transfer it back from the disk to the camcorder and see if you see a difference in a A B comparison on an attached monitor.

Can't do that as my DV JVC is out only.

daamon wrote:-

I'd say you have no DV codec installed (if it's a complete list of video codecs)

That was the full list in AVIcodec codec and filters tab.

The Codec Sniper lists 3 things as broken out of 135
MPEG2 Splitter Pixela
Pixela DvMpegMix Filter
NiwaiDumylinFilter

[daamon]

The Codec Sniper lists 3 things as broken out of 135
MPEG2 Splitter Pixela
Pixela DvMpegMix Filter
NiwaiDumylinFilter

That doesn't look like anything that will be causing your problem.

Have you installed the Panasonic DV Codec and tried capturing then? Reboot after installing and before capturing - just in case...

P.S. If you want to quote people, to save you typing daamon wrote, you can put [*quote="daamon"]TEXT[/quote*] - IGNORE the asteriks, they're there so you can see what to type, rather than the result of typing it...

[Flight13]

I installed AVIcodec and viewed my installed codecs. I then installed the Panasonic codec and ran AVIcodec again but the Panasonic is not listed. I did a system search for it and it showed up. I analyzed my captured video through AVIcodec and it says the V. codec name is Sony Digital Video. However neither the Panasonic or Sony are listed in the AVIcodec list. I can't figure out how to make the software utilize a particular codec.

[meridklt]

daamon wrote:-

Have you installed the Panasonic DV Codec and tried capturing then? Reboot after installing and before capturing - just in case...

Going to do that now - Is it a straight forward download - self install with no presumed technical knowledge required?

[daamon]

@ Flight13 - See this post, earlier... It explains why the Sony codec is displaying.

As for the Panasonic codec - did you install it properly? It's not just a case of plopping the file into a directory. There is a specific install method.

[daamon]

Going to do that now - Is it a straight forward download - self install with no presumed technical knowledge required?

When you click on the "Download" link from this site, it takes you to a page to download the file and comprehensive (easy) instructions to install.

[Flight13]

As for the Panasonic codec - did you install it properly? It's not just a case of plopping the file into a directory. There is a specific install method.

I did how it said...right clicked the file and chose "Install". That's all I did.