How random is random play?

[yoda313]

Hello,

I listen to mp3's on my mp3 cd player at work everyday. I use random play so as to avoid boredom.

I've had it happen where it will play a track it has already played. I thought the whole point of random play was to avoid that. Doesn't it go through the whole disc and then stop?????

Do some players operate this way??? Or is it a simple math formula that ensures the next track won't be played????

Kevin

[pacmania_2001]

Have it happen from time to time. I think its just the formula that randomly picks a track and sometimes it just happens to choose the same one as previously played.

[yoda313]

Have it happen from time to time. I think its just the formula that randomly picks a track and sometimes it just happens to choose the same one as previously played.

Hello,

Oh... kind of unavoidable huh???

I would have thought it would have been a countdown type of random play. You know, tick off each one its played until the disc is done.

I guess mp3 is a different animal because my audio discs seem to play random until the whole disc is done.

Oh well...

Kevin

[vitualis]

It will depend on the "random" algorithm of the player and whether or not the player internally supports on-the-fly playlists.

PC MP3 players all support relatively intellegent shuffle-modes because it is trivial to support "on-the-fly" playlists internally with the resource glut that is available (i.e., the player takes the current playlist and internally randomises it -- meaning you get "shuffled" playback but you can still go to "next" and "previous" played tracks and you won't get repetitions).

It isn't so easy for portable players as they are usually working in a low resource environment. Shuffle is usually no better than randomly choosing the next track (which means you get an ever increasing chance that the next track will have already been played) or some sort of "predictable" algorithm (i.e., you won't get repetitious tracks, but the shuffling is not quite as random -- e.g., like the iriver HDD players).

Regards.

[yoda313]

Hello,

Vitualis - thanks.

I guess a true random countdown is asking too much for a relatively cheap portable huh??

Oh well at least I wasn't imagining it



Kevin

[northcat_8]

Actually random is impossible to gain through computer programming. There is always some pattern because the algorithms are mathematical and are basically functions.

Now algorithms can be written that are very complex and may give what seems like better random behavior but in the end, there is no way to take a machine built on mathematics and have it give random outputs that are 100% completely random.

If it were possible, then every lottery in the world would be done on computer rather than ping pong balls and a vaccum cleaner

It's also why video poker is a fool's betting game. The code determines whether you are going to win or not, not your skill as a player.

[Capmaster]

Actually random is impossible to gain through computer programming. There is always some pattern because the algorithms are mathematical and are basically functions.

Now algorithms can be written that are very complex and may give what seems like better random behavior but in the end, there is no way to take a machine built on mathematics and have it give random outputs that are 100% completely random.

If it were possible, then every lottery in the world would be done on computer rather than ping pong balls and a vaccum cleaner

It's also why video poker is a fool's betting game. The code determines whether you are going to win or not, not your skill as a player.

True that truly random sequences are impossible in the strictly digital world. The best that can be achieved is pseudo-random. But we solved that by using a reverse-biased noise diode. It's an analog device.

It's a diode specially designed to have extreme junction noise when reverse-biased. The noise is truly random and is taken and amplified, and fed to an A-to-D converter, generating a truly random digital pattern

The concept is no secret, but cannot be achieved through computer code ...only through hardware.

[northcat_8]

I believe it was Einstein that said that even in random-nimity there is order....although he probably didn't say it like that exactly

The concept is no secret, but cannot be achieved through computer code ...only through hardware.

and would make one big ass MP3 player to carry around.

[Capmaster]

I believe it was Einstein that said that even in random-nimity there is order....although he probably didn't say it like that exactly

The concept is no secret, but cannot be achieved through computer code ...only through hardware.

and would make one big ass MP3 player to carry around.

Not really. The noise diode is the size of a regular diode. The A-D can be incorporated into the ASIC the player no doubt has as its brains. Same with the amplifier.

But those things cost money, and the randomness isn't a matter of life or death, so they probably have a pseudo-random number generator (simple code) built into the firmware.

[shelbyGT]

i've noticed that winamp's random shuffle isn't as random as iTunes.

or that could be all in my head since I haven't had my coffee yet today.

[Doramius]

I told someone, "I'd randomly shove a fist down your throat, but I would be favoring one and not the other and that wouldn't make it quite random. So I'm going to favor one out of surprise and you can randomly pick the noise you want to make when it happens."

While he was squiring in agony on the floor, I'm sure deep down he thought my brief lecture was logically sound.

[vitualis]

I have no problems with Winamp 2.xx random function. It seems random enough to me...

An example of a poorly executed shuffle function on hardware is the iRiver HDD players. If you "shuffle" from any given track or playlist, the order is always the same. That is, it just uses a simple algorithm. No pseudo-randomness about it.

Regards.

[Doramius]

I have no problems with Winamp 2.xx random function. It seems random enough to me...

An example of a poorly executed shuffle function on hardware is the iRiver HDD players. If you "shuffle" from any given track or playlist, the order is always the same. That is, it just uses a simple algorithm. No pseudo-randomness about it.

Regards.

I think I remember that. It shuffled once when you hit shuffle, but it would always loop the same way unless you hit shuffle again. You might as well take your DVD and replace the order of the songs and listen to the new order in your car for a week and then do the same thing. At least I think it's the same thing.

[Roundabout]

Har.

We used to get customer complaints at Sony about this exact same thing. They repurchased several CD players because of this. Some older models of CD players used to have a random/shuffle function that would eliminate the track selected from the play order until all had been played. After that, if continuous play had been selected along with shuffle, then the entire CD would start again in random order.

Later, they changed the function to where it would just continue to play tracks selected in pseudo-random order until you stop the player. People that had owned the older models and replaced them with newer models were mad, because the function changed. Since there was no way to make the function work the way the older players did, we just repurchased the player and sent them on their way.

I don't know, but maybe it was more expensive to implement the original way of shuffling, with the track elimination? All the CD players I see now do not use track elimination, they just play on and on randomly and sometimes repeat the same track right after playing it. How often tracks are repeated would depend on how many tracks are on the CD, of course. Obviously, if you had two long tracks as the only tracks on the CD, your chance is 50% of hearing the same track again.

[Sifaga]

This always bugs me about random play in my car stereo,

When on random play if i press next why does it play the next track and not the next randomly selected track.

[Doramius]

depends on the CD player. The shuffle shuffles the songs, but Next is still next sequentially. There are players that have next random song, but it's not that big of a deal to most people because there aren't that many complaints about it.

Her's some fun for you. get a Story on CD and hit random and discover a whole new adventure. :P

[Sifaga]

Its just that i end up listening to the "next" song too often, when its randomly selected and when i press next from a crap song. only way round it for me is to press next CD then it randomly selects a next song.

oh well