VHS to DVD - do I need an S-Video VCR?

[tdweis]

Hi - I'm a newbie - I've learned an incredible amount from reading the posts; thank you all.

I have about 300 VHS tapes I now want to transfer to DVD. They are all of TV shows I've taped over the years. They were all taped on hi-fi VCRs which were not S-VHS (i.e., composite connections).

I want the easiest, best-quality way to make the transfers, and I have decided to purchase a Canopus ADVC-100 as a capture device, based on the posts on this site & my own research.

However, I'm confused as to whether I should invest in a VCR with an S-video connection for the purpose of making the transfers. (I'm using my fiancee's old Panasonic VCR to tape these days since mine broke.) My questions are as follows:

1. Will I get better transfer quality by connecting via S-video rather than composite?

2. I understand that the JVC S-VHS machines are the best, but I don't want to spend several hundred dollars on a professional model when I could be putting that cash toward a DVD recorder. Am I helping myself by purchasing an entry-level JVC S-VHS?

3. Finally, many of my tapes were recorded at extended (6-hour) speed. Are there any capturing/editing programs I should be looking at which would improve my eventual DV capture, whether or not I use an S-video connection?

Any answers or other suggestions would be sincerely appreciated. Many thanks.

[EvilWizardGlick]

You can copy with composite, yellow rca jack, just fine. In theory s-video will give you a clearer picture. But since it was recorded from tv, it may not matter.
You can also run through something like the SIMA switcher. It will convert composite to s-video.
If any of your tapes are copy protected, so you will need defeat that.
Plenty of opinions on what works floating around here.

JVC's run about $100.

You can purchase an ILO standalone dvd recorder for $149 at WALMART. Nice recorder.
You can search the site for more information on the ILO.
But it sounds like it would be what you are looking for.

[lordsmurf]

The JVC S-VHS VCRs will help you because of signal quality and audio/video filters, not because of s-video connection. I use composite quite a bit, and I've got 9800 and 7900 machines.

[davideck]

lordsmurf - I would be interested to know under what conditions you prefer a composite output...

tdweis - The VHS/SVHS format is component; chrominance and luminance components are recorded separately. An S Video output allows you to playback these two components directly to a capture card. A composite output combines them, forcing the capture card to separate them again. The separation process introduces artifacts, so it is reasonable to assume that an S Video output will yield better results. Also, the improved performance of a good SVHS machine provides better pictures from a standard VHS recording than a regular VHS machine can provide, particularly with prerecorded tapes. Since you have so many tapes, my advice would be to invest in a good SVHS VCR and use the S Video output. Since many of your recordings are 6 hour mode, you might benefit from a JVC VCR with TBC/DNR. There's a 7600U listed on EBay right now, and they show up all the time. The entry line of JVC VCRs (2900, etc.) are not nearly as good as the older units, and may not even last through 300 tapes.

[lordsmurf]

There are times where y/c separation causes harm. VHS is a composite signal. That easy.

[edDV]

lordsmurf - I would be interested to know under what conditions you prefer a composite output...

tdweis - The VHS/SVHS format is component; chrominance and luminance components are recorded separately. An S Video output allows you to playback these two components directly to a capture card. A composite output combines them, forcing the capture card to separate them again. The separation process introduces artifacts, so it is reasonable to assume that an S Video output will yield better results. Also, the improved performance of a good SVHS machine provides better pictures from a standard VHS recording than a regular VHS machine can provide, particularly with prerecorded tapes. Since you have so many tapes, my advice would be to invest in a good SVHS VCR and use the S Video output. Since many of your recordings are 6 hour mode, you might benefit from a JVC VCR with TBC/DNR. There's a 7600U listed on EBay right now, and they show up all the time. The entry line of JVC VCRs (2900, etc.) are not nearly as good as the older units, and may not even last through 300 tapes.

I fully agree with davideck here. It is important to keep the luminance and chrominance separated on the playback side up to the A/D converters on the capture card and the S-Video cable is the way to do it. The importance increases with the quality of the original recording. From highest quality down the priorities are

Camcorder originals (SVHS-C and VHS-C) - These tapes have had luninance and chrominance separated all through the process. It would be a shame to introduce luma-chrominance artifacts in the final cable to the capture card.

Commercially produced VHS, S-VHS tapes - these were either produced from component transfers (film) or used broadcast industry quality NTSC (or PAL) comb filter decoders for transfer of NTSC (or PAL) originals. Again keep the luminance and chrominance separated to the capture A/D.

Any thing recorded from a source with a comb filter - The comb filter extracts higher detail luminace information above 3MHz. This mainly applies to VHS or S-VHS tapes recorded on a S-VHS VCR using its internal comb filter tuner (common on these decks) or recorded off a source with a comb filter and using the input S-Video cable (e.g. a quality TV tuner or cable box).

When you get down to material recorded off a standard VHS deck TV tuner things get more theoretical since the luminance is filtered sharply well below the 3.58MHz (4.43MHz PAL) color subcarrier frequency in such decks but this limited luminance information was recorded separately to the tape so keeping the chroma separate on playback should still help avoid artifact problems caused by the extremely cheap luma-chroma separation filters on typical capture cards.

Mileage may vary as far as observable differences since VHS has so many other problems.

Edit: The above discussion applies equally well to dubs from 8mm or Hi8 camcorders. Use S-video cables whenever possible. That means use a well tuned Hi8 (or maybe Digital8) camcorder for the dub.

[Wile_E]

You seem confused, S-Video is a type of connection. S-VHS is a type of tape. I use the S-Video connection all the time on my JVC HR-S9911. All my tapes are VHS, and yes I bought the JVC for it's S-Video connection and the digital filter and TBC, which helps gets the best quality out of your tapes. I've compared the Composite to S-Video output. I clearly see the difference in the output. (I have an A/B Video box to switch inputs on my TV.) S-Video looks better in all my tapes so far. I see no harm in using it, even though VHS is a "composite" signal.

I also suggest, capture at the highest resolution possible. I have a Canopus ADVC-300 and always capture my VHS tapes at 720x480. Some people suggest 320x240 capture for VHS, but I think that's bologny. I've tried it and still think higher is better. Computer storage space for archiving is always increasing, so use as much space as you can to store the video. Although I make DVD's of all videos, I also keep the original DV capture as a backup. Yes it takes up a lot of backup space now, but in the future it won't!


Before I got the JVC, I tried using a standard, cheaper VCR that I had. I tried my Quasar, Panasonic, and another I have laying around the house. They are all VHS models with HQ 4-Head. But the quality I got sucked compared to what I get with the high-end JVC. Even SLP (6hour) tapes look better when played on my JVC.

I bought a high-end model VCR, because I wanted to do all my captures right the first time. It is well worth the price.

[edDV]

You seem confused, S-Video is a type of connection. S-VHS is a type of tape. I use the S-Video connection all the time on my JVC HR-S9911. All my tapes are VHS, and yes I bought the JVC for it's S-Video connection and the digital filter and TBC, which helps gets the best quality out of your tapes. I've compared the Composite to S-Video output. I clearly see the difference in the output. (I have an A/B Video box to switch inputs on my TV.) S-Video looks better in all my tapes so far. I see no harm in using it, even though VHS is a "composite" signal.

...

The relationship between S-VHS and the S-Video connection is they are both found only on S-VHS decks. S-VHS VCRs keep the components separate from S-Video in to S-Video out whether you record on S-VHS or standard VHS tapes. S-VHS VCR's also typically use comb filter tuners and higher end models may also have a TBC.

In the camcorder world, Hi8 and S-VHSC camcorders typically have S-Video connections in and out.

[tdweis]

Excellent info - thank you all for your input so far (pls. keep it coming) - I'm MUCH less confused now than I was before! The more I think about it the more I am considering biting the bullet & getting a high-end machine.

[edDV]

You want more? OK heh

"even though VHS is a "composite" signal. "

Actually the VHS standard records luminance directly and separates chroma using the "color under" modulation technique, so separate components are recorded to the VHS or S-VHS tapes (or 8mm, Hi8).

VHS decks typically have composite inputs and outputs and must separate luma and chroma at the input and combine them at the output.

I will restrict the following discussion to NTSC. PAL is similar.

Input separation is the hard part and VHS decks take the cheapest route by hard filtering luminance well below the 3.58MHz color subcarrier even though luminance detail information may extend to 4.2MHz for broadcast or up to 7-8MHz for studio quality NTSC sources. Chrominance (color) information is extracted by notch filtering around the 3.58MHz color subcarrier. Luminance detail above the input filter is eliminated.

However, the information on tape is still separated into luminance and chrominance.

Commercial tape producers and dub houses keep luminance and chrominance information separate and full bandwidth throughout the process to keep the highest quality. VHS decks destroy the luminance bandwidth (detail) at the input filter.

Once the detail is lost it can't be replaced so looking at the output side, the goal is to both preserve any luminance detail that is there and avoid adding "distortion or noise" to the signal before A/D (analog to digital conversion) in the capture card.

If high luminance detail exists on the tape, keeping it clean to the A/D is the goal. That means avoid contamination by chroma and avoid artifacts created by bandpass filters. This is what the S-Video cable is for.

The S-Video cable also allows the chroma to be passed to the A/D without corruption by high frequency luminance.

Do you want more?
Nobody respects analog anymore

[chas0039]

This has been fascinating. I still am not clear on a particular situation. Suppose I recorded from a satellite dish using the s-video output into a JVC s-video input on regular tape. If I am recording into my Panasonic E-50 should I use s-video? My guess is yes.
TIA

[edDV]

Basic rules of analog NTSC or PAL.

Never use the composite cable if you can use S-Video. Keep in mind that S-Video is still NTSC or PAL (but with luminance and chrominance separated thus avoiding "crosscolor artifacts").

Once the signal is contaminated by "crosscolor artifacts", you can't go back and it is very expensive to partially repair the damage.

If you can avoid NTSC or PAL altogeter with components (Y,Pb,Pr) do that every time.

Get to digital (clean A/D) as early as you can.

[lordsmurf]

An s-video is not better than composite, not in practice. Not with VHS. Generation loss can cause the signal to go wacky when s-video is used, luma goes completely out of whack (brightness in unstable). There are many times when composite should be used.

Sure use, s-video if it can, but at the first hint of weirdness, switch.

[edDV]

An s-video is not better than composite, not in practice. Not with VHS. Generation loss can cause the signal to go wacky when s-video is used, luma goes completely out of whack (brightness in unstable). There are many times when composite should be used.

Sure use, s-video if it can, but at the first hint of weirdness, switch.

I think you are maybe refering to situations when cross color (luminance and chominance) contamination has already occured and you are in salvage mode. I'd appreciate any detail.

I'm getting ready to try dubbing my general EP recorded tapes after finishing the camcoder and good S-VHS and VHS SP/EP (comb filter sourced) stock.

Experiments so far with the Canopus ADVC-100 show a stable recording but the EP quality is bad if watched on a good TV. Not as bad on a small screen.

VHS HiFi sound is unexpectedly good on the 5.1 sound system.

I'm still looking to perfect the best VHS EP (6hr) to DVDR transfer procedure. I've played with 480x480 SVCD and am going to see what 352x480 MPeg2 can do.

Has anyone here got it down, or is there a sig forming for VHS EP?

PS: most of my tapes are still first generation VHS EP (off the TV tuner) not multi generation. I would think this would be true for most people.

[lordsmurf]

PS: most of my tapes are still first generation VHS EP (off the TV tuner) not multi generation. I would think this would be true for most people.

You'd be surprised. Too many scenarios in HOW it happened too, to even bother trying to list them. Some of them downright crazy, but common.

[vhelp]

TGIF everyone :P

First ...

I think that all VHS transfers to DVD will be ok (even if EP mode) as long
as you follow some simple points to remember.

I think that EP gives a slightly bit more noise (for obvious reasons) but
that's about it.

You still have to determine the source's type (ie, Film or Interlace) for
best convergence. If you can determine that your source type if Film, then
you know what to do with that

You can tell right away what type soure type are (Interlace) for these
types of videos' (ie, news; sports; concerts; documentary; talk, etc)
These would require a 29.970 fps ith Interlace turned on to encode, usually
for TV viewing.

-vhelp

[edDV]

VHS dubs through composite can be a horror, that is true. Need a CSI forensics division. In addition to normal crosscolor interference, dubs create increasing timebase jitter and one pass through a VHS recorder destroys the phase relationship of chroma to luminance.

[edDV]

TGIF everyone :P

First ...

I think that all VHS transfers to DVD will be ok (even if EP mode) as long
as you follow some simple points to remember.

I think that EP gives a slightly bit more noise (for obvious reasons) but
that's about it.

You still have to determine the source's type (ie, Film or Interlace) for
best convergence. If you can determine that your source type if Film, then
you know what to do with that

You can tell right away what type soure type are (Interlace) for these
types of videos' (ie, news; sports; concerts; documentary; talk, etc)
These would require a 29.970 fps ith Interlace turned on to encode, usually
for TV viewing.

-vhelp

Well if its VHS EP, it will be noisy, interlaced and timebase unstable. Unless you are focused on optimizing short clips, and working through a quality frame sync, getting to the pixel level and treating film sources differntly will probably be futile.

I'd be curious to see how far this can be pushed but my goal is to bulk transfer VHS tapes to DVDR in "acceptable" quality.

[vhelp]

I'd be curious to see how far this can be pushed but my goal is to bulk transfer VHS tapes to DVDR in "acceptable" quality.

Then, just get a hardware MPEG encoder card.. and be done with it

But, if you need to do any editing (ie, cutting/joining) then only a
capture to AVI (any format) will have to do.

Heck, I'd be interested in seeing what an EP recorded
show would fair, if I recorded from my noisy Antenna in
this mode. hmm... anyways.

-vhelp

[edDV]

I'd be curious to see how far this can be pushed but my goal is to bulk transfer VHS tapes to DVDR in "acceptable" quality.

Then, just get a hardware MPEG encoder card.. and be done with it

But, if you need to do any editing (ie, cutting/joining) then only a
capture to AVI (any format) will have to do. ...

-vhelp

Well most sources are clean VHS EP records off a cable box. Unfortunately most tapes will need to be cut /paste edited and catalogued.

I want the capture to be realtime. Crude Mpeg2 edits will be fine.

A hardware encoder may be the only solution although I think we are near to a realtime software solution "tbc-procamp-Mpeg2 encoder" for this type of dub.

Maybe hardware is the only way for now.

[BetaMaster]

It's my opinion that using a S-VHS machine and S-Video on a standard VHS tape won't help a bit. Standard VHS doesn't give the same resolution as broadcast TV, and there is no way to get it "up" to a better standard by using a better playback machine. The problem is in the recording, not the player. If a tape is recorded in S-VHS (or even S-VHS ET), then using an S-Video connection will clearly benefit you. However, if a tape was recorded in S-VHS to begin with, you will have to play it back on an S-VHS machine with S-Video output.

Since a standard VHS tape (even a commercial one, and all commercial tapes with exceedingly rare exceptions are standard VHS SP) doesn't record a signal that separates luminance and colour (like S-VHS does), then separating them at the output stage won't get you anything better than using a standard composite cable. The player is playing back a composite signal and using an S-Video cable won't create a better signal by the time it gets to the capture card.

Best recommendation - get a really good standard VHS deck with small playback heads so they won't be as succeptible from the magnetic signal on parallel tracks. That will be a better investment than an S-VHS machine.

[lordsmurf]

An S-VHS VCR, a good one, will at least clean up the chroma mess made on ALL VHS tapes. That's the only real draw to the machine, improving the image quality.

But even then, use composite, not s-video.

[davideck]

BetaMaster - ALL Standard VHS VCRs record luminance and chrominance separately. The same is true for Betamax and S-VHS. They are all color under formats. If you have ever seen a prerecorded VHS tape played back in a professional VHS deck, then you know how much better VHS can look than what is obtained from a "typical" consumer VHS VCR. I maintain that a good S-VHS machine also provides improvement.

[jdizzy40]

Very informative thread. Just goes to show you if you take the time to read and browse while on this site you can gain a wealth of knowledge. Thank goodness for copy,cpaste and "Save". Thanks!

[vico1]

I`ve been kicking around the idea of getting a refurbished pro deck
off ebay, for the purpose of backing up some of my older VHS movies
to DVD. (commercial and home-made)
I`d be using it and my LiteOn 5005.
The one I`m looking at is a JVC BR-7000UR HI-FI VHS.
One thing kinda` puts me off of it though.
This statement in the auction:

The Facts about Professional Duplication.
For the best possible quality, the SP (Standard Play) speed should be used.
The standard video track width for VHS SP speed is 58 microns by 4" long.
All professional grade VHS duplicating VCRs conform to this standard, however, 2 head consumer VCRs do not.
A 2 head consumer VCR will record and play back SP, LP & EP/SLP speeds all with the same pair of heads.
To do this, the heads can only be 30 microns wide so they don't record over adjacent tracks.
This is a compromise for recording of the SP speed as only 30/58ths of the available space is being used. 4 & 6 head machines do not matter. When a standard 58 micron head VCR plays back a tape recorded on a 30 micron head consumer VCR at the SP speed, poorer signal to noise ratio will be obtained because the head is reading a lot of blank tape. Tracking and flagging problems are also more likely to occur.
A 2 head consumer VCR is only adequate when all it's meant to do is record and play back on the same VCR, or play back prerecorded tapes. The Professional duplication VCR's we sell adhere to the above statements.

I take this to mean that if I have a tape recorded on a consumer deck
(ie. one with 19 micron heads) there may be a problem with playback
on a 58 micron head machine.

What do you guys think?


*******************************
The Devil`s always.....in the Details!

[davideck]

vico1 - I would also suspect that you may have a problem. The fact that the seller posted this info (disclaimer) seems to support your conclusion as well. You should ask the seller. If you do, please post his reply.

[gshelley61]

58 micron recording heads are found in single speed (SP) VHS duplicators and such machines are not designed for multi-speed playback. Full size professional editors are also designed to operate only at one speed (SP). Prosumer units like the Panasonic AG-1970/1980 or high end consumer decks like the JVC HR-S9600/9800/9900/9911/7600 are better suited for what you are doing (if that includes playing back VHS tapes recorded on consumer machines at different speeds).

[vico1]

davideck, I have E-mailed my concerns and am waiting a reply.
I don`t think I`d have a problem with any commercial tapes I have,
probably just with the ones I recorded on my home decks.
On a side note...since these and the Panasonic AG-6840 decks they have
up for auction, (also 58 micron head) are probably pulled from mass
duplication, I noticed none had svideo connections. (another concern)

Yes gshelley, looks like a prosumer deck is the way to go.
Oh well...it was just an idea anyway, Thanks for the replys.


*******************************
The Devil`s always.....in the Details!

[edDV]

It's my opinion that using a S-VHS machine and S-Video on a standard VHS tape won't help a bit. Standard VHS doesn't give the same resolution as broadcast TV, and there is no way to get it "up" to a better standard by using a better playback machine. The problem is in the recording, not the player. If a tape is recorded in S-VHS (or even S-VHS ET), then using an S-Video connection will clearly benefit you. However, if a tape was recorded in S-VHS to begin with, you will have to play it back on an S-VHS machine with S-Video output.

Since a standard VHS tape (even a commercial one, and all commercial tapes with exceedingly rare exceptions are standard VHS SP) doesn't record a signal that separates luminance and colour (like S-VHS does), then separating them at the output stage won't get you anything better than using a standard composite cable. The player is playing back a composite signal and using an S-Video cable won't create a better signal by the time it gets to the capture card.

...

Many misconceptions here. We need to be working from facts if this is a capture forum. All VHS tapes, just like U-Matic and others* use the color under modulation technique. All VHS and S-VHS machines must split the chroma from the luminance for recording.

VHS home recorders take the cheap path of hard filtering the composite signal chopping the luminance below the subcarrier frequency. Color is extracted by notch filtering around the subcarrier frequency. Luminance is recorded to the tape directly via a fm technique (at 3.4-4.4MHz) and the color subcarrier is down converted to 629KHz, bandwidth limited and recorded separately.

As stated above, commercially recorded VHS tapes are usually recorded from components (or off a broadcast quality NTSC decoder with quality filtering) to produce a higher quality recording than can be done on a home machine.

S-VHS machines record a wider luminance bandwith but only if the input signal arrives in S-Video components and/or if a comb filter is used to decode the composite signal. A comb filter is required to separate luminance from chrominance in the region of the 3.58MHz (4.4MHz PAL) subcarrier. Luminance detail extends to 4.2 MHz and above for NTSC and above 5MHz for PAL.

See this quick summary of consumer recording formats. More detail is easily available on the web. http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCAT/images/documents/pdfs/TT189%20-%204611.pdf

Component Y/C recording has benefits other than luminance detail. Keeping the luminance and chrominance components separate all through the process to the capture card A/D or TV monitor (using S-Video cables) will produce better pictures with less distortion from luminmance-chrominance crosstalk. The results can be best realized with component or high quality NTSC decoded original tapes (e.g. commercially produced VHS, camcorder originals or material recorded off S-video inputs that has not had the Y and C mixed up to that point). These kinds of tapes ("virgins") can benefit greatly from a S-video to capture card A/D connection.

If a "virgin" component recorded tape is passed over a composite cable to the capture card, the Y (luminance) and C (chrominance) signals are combined and the signal is no longer "virgin". The first function of the capture card is to attempt to separate the Y and C and it will do a very crude job of it introducing distortion into the analog to digital component process. Even if the tape is "nonvirgin", the Y and C still exist separately on the tape so best to avoid further losses introduced by the capture card Y/C separation filters. Better to use the S-Video cable to the capture card in all cases.**

Anytime the luminace and chrominance signals are combined upstream of recording (e.g. composite input material to a home recorder) then the signal is no longer component "virgin" since the VCR input filters will imperfectly separate Y (luminance) and C (chrominance) before recording causing crosscolor distortion to be present in the recording and no downstream processing will ever be able to recover from that damage.


** lordsmurf claims that A/D conversion of certain multi-generation VHS tapes will improve if the composite cable is used. That is beyond this discussion. I'm talking here about first generation tapes. Multigeneration recording adds a host of other distortions.

I present the above discussion as fact. I welcome any fact based challenge. Now for the issues of digital capture quality (more subjective).

1. The benefits of maintaining Y/C component separation during recording and during playback to the capture card A/D can be demonstrated. The better the original tape (e.g. "virgin"), the better the results of maintaining components to the A/D.

2. Using S-Video in and out for recording S-VHS tapes on a S-VHS VCR should be a no brainer. The results will always be better.

3. There are no home VHS VCRs with S-Video in and out. So the question is on the table as to whether using a S-VHS deck to dub VHS tapes is desirable. I argue that using the S-VHS deck will yield superior results especially with "virgin" VHS originals. There is at least one caveat and that is the head gap differences between VHS and S-VHS machines.

In the early days of S-VHS, this was a major problem. The manufacturers expected S-VHS users to use only S-VHS media and optimized the heads for S-VHS media. Customers didn't want to pay the high tape cost and opted to use S-VHS media only for special recordings.

The magazines of the day reported a customer revolt over poor VHS tape performance in S-VHS machines. The manufacturers responded with better compatibilty for VHS tape. JVC today makes a big deal about VHS tape performance in their S-VHS machines and even developed S-VHS-ET for use with VHS tape.

So do the advantages of Y/C component recording offset any increased noise from the heads while using VHS tape in S-VHS VCRs? That is the question that needs testing. But I will subjectively testify that my 3 S-VHS decks (NEC, SONY and JVC) all have produced better looking VHS recordings than my VHS VCRs.

* The above discussion applies equally to 8mm vs Hi8, U-Matic and Betamax vs Super Betamax.

[edDV]

I`ve been kicking around the idea of getting a refurbished pro deck
off ebay, for the purpose of backing up some of my older VHS movies
to DVD. (commercial and home-made)
...

What do you guys think?


*******************************
The Devil`s always.....in the Details!

I agree with gshelley61 that a prosumer S-VHS machine will offer more format and tape speed flexibility. There are also problems with used Pro models

- They are usually worn out and even if low mileage, they will soon need expensive maintenance.

- Often they will not have S-Video outputs. Check the specs. Only Y, Pb, Pr and NTSC is available on many broadcast decks.

- Machine control software can get expensive and my not work with your applications.

- Many models of pro VHS duplication decks lack most of the I/O found in normal machines. Large house VHS dub decks are made to run from a special distributed RF signal that is run directly to the tape head drum and have only a simple monitor output for quality control. Be sure of what you are buying.