VHS to DVD - do I need an S-Video VCR?

[BrainStorm69]

Since all we've seen so far is talk, but no one has posted any pics yet, I will try to do so tonight (if I can pull myself away from the Cowboy game). I happen to agree with edDV with respect to "virgin" signals (e.g., commercially recorded tapes), and my past experience from comparing frames from captures is consistent.

[tdweis]

Hi everyone: again thanks for your answers to my questions; your answers & further research on this site this weekend being up 2 further questions:

1. What's the difference between DigiPure 2 MB frame memory and the 4-MB memory included on the JVC HR-S9911U? Would it make a difference in what I want to do (transferrring non-S-VHS tapes to DVD)?

2. I keep seeing lordsmurf & others referring to a standalone TBC. Should I need that if I'm going to use a Canopus ADVC-100, which is supposed to have a "time-lock" audio-video synch feature? Would having both of them be a decided advantage, or should I just try it with the ADVC-100 & see how it goes? Which is a better unit, the TBC-1000 or the AVT-8710? (I will try to find some comparisons on the forum.)

Thanks again for any input.

[BSR]

300 tapes of non home videos, just TV capture.
I'd be buying a DVD recorder for the job.

[davideck]

edDV - Great posts!

tdweis - I have a JVC 7600U with 2MB Digipure and a 9600U with 4MB Digipure, and I have never been able to notice a difference. They are both good at noise reduction (particularly 6 hour recordings) and their TBCs provide exceptional line by line correction. With regard to a standalone TBC, I use a Hauppauge PVR-250 Hardware MPEG2 compression card that introduces audio/video skew without a full frame TBC. I have no experience with the Canopus. I have a TBC-3000 which is essentially a dual TBC-1000 with proc amp controls, and it works great. It does soften the image a bit, and there is typically a 1 second glitch every 20 minutes or so as the input timing slides through the output timing, but I have learned to accept these limitations.

[racerxnet]

Your ADVC 100 will bypass the macrovision. You will only need the TBC for very poor tapes that drop frames. You will not know this until you try and transfer the tapes to the hard drive. Your audio/video sync should be very accurate. You can find additional information at the Canopus web site.

MAK

[davideck]

tdweis - another thought. Some of the high end JVC SVHS VCRs (7600, 9500, 9600, 9800, etc.) have a Dynamic Drum system that dynamically tilts the scanner to constantly optimize tracking. Its advertised feature is to produce noiseless search up to 7X, but I suspect that it also provides tracking capability in normal play beyond that of other machines, particularly with tapes that are worn on the edges. This may be advantageous for your 6 hour recordings.

[tdweis]

Thanks guys for the info - davideck, I understand you love your 7600; I take it you would heartily recommend? I may have a line on either a used 7600 or a 9800, depending on the condition of each.

[davideck]

tdweis - yes; for your application I would heartily recommend a JVC SVHS VCR with Dynamic Drum and TBC/DNR.

[gshelley61]

Hey, I am just now checking out a high end prosumer Sony S-VHS machine... the SVO-2000 (the consumer version is the SLV-R1000). Very impressive picture. Excellent chroma noise filtering and a smooth, balanced playback image. I don't think these units have a TBC in them, but the video image quality is among the best I've seen. A quick comparison with my JVC SR-W5U (with DigiPure and TBC) shows the JVC has a richer, more colorful and smoother picture, and the Sony SVO-2000 has a sharper, slightly grainy picture with a bit less color and punch. Still, this Sony is definitely worth looking at if you have a standalone TBC and Proc Amp.

[vhelp]

Although it wasn't exactly/explicitly stated, I also agree that commercial
done tapes as "virgin" but I also believe that the video is transfered
in a totally different manner (spelling) ...

I've have numerious problems w/ my ADVC-100 capturing from my massive
libriary of commercial tapes (I'd love to get them on DVD (now
that I have one) from my ADVC-100 - though mainly because this device captures
with ZERO noise) Anyways.
I can't explain it, but when capturing w/ the ADVC-100 and "commerical" tapes,
the quality (I should say, the detail) from the advc leaves the final
AVI rather poorly, once encoded to MPEG.
.
However, when we record from any source (as I've tested over the past
week with success) the ADVC-100 shines till dawn (and then some) with great
quality.
.
So, it must be something to do with the way VCR's record the
source video to the tape. I don't know. I'm just theorizing too

I was gonna post some pics (or sample clip) but I lost *the* post regarding
the questions / concirns of pre-recorded tapes, that I read about in a thread
somewhere on this forum..
.
The test of quality, was suppose to be in EP recording mode. I did that, and
was very happy with the results.., considering that I recorded in EP mode
(which is much noiser) but as I always argue, and will continue to,
"the final quality will result in the user's skills/knowledge level and the
technique(s) he/she uses in his/her process (from start to finish) that will
matter in the end" !!
.
And, the test I used was my tipicle Noisy Antenna signal. It's all I have, and
I am ok with it. Couple all this w/ my skills/knowledge and techniques, and I
have what I consider the very good comprimise, from Antenna source

I agree that S-Video is the best approach (if money is not a stumbling block)
I would opt for a decent VCR w/ this feature. You don't have to get one with
lots of bells and whistles (tbc, DNR, etc) I have one of the JVC models, though
it's an older model (before the jung came out) and I must say, that the quality
I obtain from it (any source, i.e., Antenna or VHS tape) is wonderful. Anywasy.
However, I'm sure that money is an issue, and you simply arn't going to go
out and make a bunch of "random" purchases of new devices and gizmos, only
to do a couple of hundred VHS tapes ..it's so not worth it. Think about it

I don't think that you'll need a TBC (specially if you're using the ADVC)
unless you know for sure that all your tapes have TBC 'related
issues that calls for one. .."did you check each of the 300 tapes to see if
they suffer from TBC 'related issues ???" and with what capture card ??
Ok, I'm going too far here Anyways.

I do agree though, that 300 tapes is a bug order
I hope you are not expecting to do all this over night.. let alone get better
than "expected" quality in the end. (I'm in my 4th year (give or take) and I'm
still getting their)
.
I would think about a Hardware MPEG encoder, if your time is valuable and you
don't want to go the long haul that comes with AVI capturing route.
But, if time is not a factor, then an AVI type capture device is probably
going to give you the best result. However, your skills/knowledge and techniques
will dectake that.. though you probably only a "softmore" at this (at best)

I consider myself a PRO because I have a tone of scars from my
busy endeavors, not to mention my many trial n error scenarios I've
run over the years

-vhelp

[BrainStorm69]

Well, I just couldn't miss the game last night, so I'll see about posting some pics tonight.

[mmasw]

The relationship between S-VHS and the S-Video connection is they are both found only on S-VHS decks.... .

what??.....I've had about 5 vcr's that were standard vcr's that had s-video connections.

as a matter of fact, I have one now connected to my ATI AIW card thru both the S-video and composite connections

......unless you mean a vcr that has s-vhs only has s-video connections?

[edDV]

The relationship between S-VHS and the S-Video connection is they are both found only on S-VHS decks.... .

what??.....I've had about 5 vcr's that were standard vcr's that had s-video connections.

as a matter of fact, I have one now connected to my ATI AIW card thru both the S-video and composite connections

......unless you mean a vcr that has s-vhs only has s-video connections?

I should have said "typically" then

Give me a list of your VHS VCR model numbers with S-Video in/out.

Edit: Unless you are talking about those combo players that typically spec
" (1) S-Video Out (DVD only)"

Those decks aren't easy to find. I entered " VCR S-Video" into Froogle and so far everything that comes up is S-VHS or a combo DVD player.

[gshelley61]

I can't recall ever seeing a VHS only machine with s-video outputs. Who made them like that?

[Brent212]

I've seen non-SVHS machines that have an S-Video output, but they are rare. I don't remember any model numbers. I was looking for one of these awhile ago and I know I found a few, but they definitely weren't common.

[victoriabears]

Some "in practice" advice from me.

I have a jvc super vhs vcr model s-2915-u, and it plays back crappy tapes much better than even a good standard vcr=Pansonic.

I also use a canopus advc300 which does even more wonders.

One thing I have discovered is that it is best to leave all this stuff on its default settings unless you can output the signal to a TV, I use a 55 inch Toshiba, to actually see what the change of settings does for you, you can drive yourself insane trying to get a "better" result.

Enjoy!

[victoriabears]

here is a strange old machine on ebay:-

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67829&item=5736483273&rd=1

go figure.

[edDV]

'here is a strange old machine on ebay:- "

strange true but it is S-VHS

[gshelley61]

JVC HM-HDS1U

40GB HDD recorder + S-VHS VCR combo unit

Original MSRP... $1,900 (Yikes!)

Max MPEG2 bit rate on the HDD recording is only 6Mbps, and there's no way to transfer the files to your PC or some other storage device. Maybe the S-VHS part of the machine is decent, though. It has the 4MB DigiPure processor just like the other high end JVC S-VHS decks.

[BrainStorm69]

Well, since tdweis said the tapes he wants to convert are of TV shows he's taped, I taped part of a movie off my cable channel with my Toshiba M-784 VHS VCR. Then I capped them from my JVC HR-S9900U using both s-video and composite cables. I have to say there isn't much discernable difference between the two.

[lordsmurf]

Images don't show up?

[BrainStorm69]

Well, that's strange. Hmmm....I'm not sure why it isn't working.

***EDIT***

OK, converted to jpg and uploaded instead.

[edDV]

Well, that's strange. Hmmm....I'm not sure why it isn't working.

***EDIT***

OK, converted to jpg and uploaded instead.

Best to use test patterns and more saturated images.

This page shows a similar test and the results they obtained. Scroll down about 50%.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.firingsquad.com/guides/ps2picture/st...lr%3D%26sa%3DN

I use this page as an example of what to look for. I'm not endorsing their results. Note the color bleed into the luminance and the ringing transition edges in the composite image.


Pay particular attention to their test 3. I'll just post the direct links to the images here

Composite
http://www.firingsquad.com/guides/ps2picture/monster-lagunaseca-640.jpg

S-Video
http://www.firingsquad.com/guides/ps2picture/monsters-lagunaseca-gt3.jpg

Edit:
Note the ringing on the graphic edges and the racecar. The ringing occurs because the color information is crosstalking into luminance. If there was luminance information that occured close to the color 3.58MHz subcarrier (e.g striped shirt, checks or screen door) then false rainbow color would be generated in a composite connection. These problems are prevented in a Y/C connection assuming Y and C have been kept separate through the process.

BTW: I don't endorse the hype surrounding Monster cables. Similar well made cables can be sourced at far lower cost.

[lordsmurf]

edDV, those links are TOTALLY WORTHLESS for the conversation at hand. Those tests use high-resolution test patterns. This was about VHS tapes and s-video versus composite.

As BrainStorm69 has illustrated, there won't be any real difference between the two of them on something a "lowly" as VHS source. Not at all.

[edDV]

It demonstrates the differences between composite and Y/C connections. Next step is to do it with VHS source.

I can't do it here but will find some links and give it a shot later in the week.

[gshelley61]

There are times when using the composite output from a video source is preferable... for example, laserdiscs are native analog composite video. Using the s-video out from a laserdisc player is only a good idea if the Y/C separation filtering in the player is superior to the Y/C filtering of the capture device. In the case of nearly all name brand DVD recorders, the Y/C filter is a very sophisticated motion adaptive 3D digital type and performs much better than what would be in a typical mid-90's LD player. I have a Pioneer CLD-D704, one of the best LD players ever made, but the fact is that the composite video signal from that machine is clearly superior to the s-video output. Results are much better when my JVC DVD recorder does the Y/C separation during the MPEG2 encoding process.

[BSR]

Won't SVHS cable also give you better immunity to noise if you have them running accross other power cables and the rats nest behind the computer that I have?
Just curious if it helps any or not?

If so, then some people might get better results from using SVHS.

[lordsmurf]

S-VHS is short for SUPER VHS, a tape format.
S-VIDEO is short for SEPARATED VIDEO, a wire.

Do not confuse them.

And the answer is "no". Good shielded cables are all you need, regardless of the connector types and wires inside. Buy MONSTER for some of the best.

[BrainStorm69]

If I get the chance tonight, I'll try capping the THX test pattern taped to VHS.

[mmasw]

The relationship between S-VHS and the S-Video connection is they are both found only on S-VHS decks.... .

what??.....I've had about 5 vcr's that were standard vcr's that had s-video connections.

as a matter of fact, I have one now connected to my ATI AIW card thru both the S-video and composite connections

......unless you mean a vcr that has s-vhs only has s-video connections?

I should have said "typically" then

Give me a list of your VHS VCR model numbers with S-Video in/out.

Edit: Unless you are talking about those combo players that typically spec
" (1) S-Video Out (DVD only)"

Those decks aren't easy to find. I entered " VCR S-Video" into Froogle and so far everything that comes up is S-VHS or a combo DVD player.

I see that I was mistaken to a degree. The current vcr I have is a mitsubishi hsu748 which IS an s-vhs unit. But I do believe that a couple of it's earlier predessors that I had weren't. I also used to have a toshiba combo dvd/vcr that I could have sworn was not s-vhs

an irritating flaw in the mitsubishi vcr's: they had good video quality, however they had the ultra-fast forward/rewind feature that seemed to wear out their sprockets in an ultra fast hurry. You could rewind a 160 minute tape in 40 seconds....until the mechanism failed....and there was no way to simply rewind slow unless you were (over)using the heads.

they were a snap to program though