Affordable Dual Layer Media?

[steve2713]

and I've done it myself on sets that were rare or expensive

I think that you'd find that a large number of users on videohelp, and the general public overall, have a much lower threshold of where 'expensive' begins. It's not really much different between your practices and theirs: either way, it is breaking the law. Only the number of $25,000 fines or years in prison you are subject to may be fewer than others that 'backup' with more frequency.

[lordsmurf]

Legitimate reasons for backing up items you own is a well-held ground of this forum and society in general. Whether it is, indeed, "breaking the law", has yet to be tested in any court I've ever heard of. There are two interpretations to be made here. Feel free to exercise your belief and pay Mr. Valenti's hoggish salary. And when your discs are ruined (should something happen, nobody has 100% perfect luck), and the items are OOP (out of print), good luck finding new ones.

At any rate, my original point that people that solely use "backup" as their reasons for purchasing burners and media, are not an important group when discussing new DL media and acceptability of its pricing. They're not the majority buyers.

Let's not hijack this thread away from DUAL LAYER discussions.

[tekkieman]

ls - I know you've already issued your first yellow card, so I guess I won't have the honor of being your first victim, but...

Lighten up!

You can detest the backup crowd as much as you like, but how many members here do you think you might have just offended? Mind you, I'm not saying you're completely wrong here. I understand what you're saying about the BB/Netflix people, and the downloaders, of course. A training video? Great idea! I wish they sold one with every burner! But, an IQ test? That's a mighty high horse you're sitting on!

While you may have every right to personally believe that certain technology should be reserved for the select few, your public bashing of what I suspect is the majority of the members here was really unwarranted. Maybe you could suggest an alterative site where all those who are a blight on your hobby can go, where you would not need to be exposed to them (us)?

[steve2713]

At any rate, my original point that people that solely use "backup" as their reasons for purchasing burners and media, are not an important group when discussing new DL media and acceptability of its pricing. They're not the majority buyers.

I agree that presently they are most likely only a small percentage of those buying DL discs, but as the price drops, THEY WILL become a large portion of those buying DL media, if not a majority before all is said and done.

Like them or not, these people that 'backup' are what has driven media prices to become as affordable as they are now. If the only people buying DVD media were people that were using them in completely legal manners, FAR FAR FAR fewer discs would be sold, and your TY discs would still probably be $2 a disc. If DL media becomes 'affordable', alot of your thanks may be owed to those that you despise.

[sammie]

@ L.S. Well, unfortunately, the great unwashed tends to drive not just price but compatability and quality (unfortunately both ways on quality) as well. As a format generates a large enough user base, the hardware manufacturers go out of there way to make sure that their set top box is compatible, whether it matches the formal specs or not. Plus, I'm not talking about getting the price down to $.65 or $.35. I'm pefectly happy with an hour or hour and a half on a high end disk. I stick with that and change the disk when needed. To be worth not changing the disk to me, the price has to be below $3.00 AND as you mention, predictibly highly compatible. That's not a hard and fast rule, just my price to get off my lazy butt.

I think you would have to admit that there is a sizeable portion of the users here that are here for backups. While I tend to agree on the IQ test for burners, I do think that there are a high precentage of the very knowledgable who are doing that. P2P'ers, etc. well, like you said.

But, even then taking your goal of just having higher end/better bitrate, will DL make significant enough gains to meet your criteria before Blu/HD become routinely available? Theoretically it should, but realistically I'm not sure. It is another case of trying to make something compatible with an existing standard after the fact. It's usually pretty tough. It hasn't been that long ago where everyone, hardware and media manufacturers included, was saying making a DL writeable wasn't even going to be possible. Plus, when it's an after the fact design, compatibility is a bit of a circular argument. Some of it comes with set top box makers making compatibility changes as well and that doesn't happen until something catches on with the masses.

The good news is so far it seems that both Blu and HD are being designed to be a writeable technology from the get go. Again theoretically, but that should insure compatibility from the start.

Frankly, I'm anxious for DL/Blu/HD so I can start playing around with some high def stuff. But then reality sets in and I wonder where am I going to actually get high def material to play with? HDTV signals typically aren't even as good as DVDs. The best quality consumer camcorders are roughly DVD equivalent..... bottom line is there are just a few HD sample clips or trailers floating around to play with and that's it. Unless I'm missing something there won't be any significant HD content until Blu/HD starts going commercial mainstream.

[lordsmurf]

But, even then taking your goal of just having higher end/better bitrate, will DL make significant enough gains to meet your criteria before Blu/HD become routinely available?

And that, my friend, is the magic question. Will +DL or even -DL be a success early enough to prevent holding out for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? I surely don't know. I've long said to leave the future to the future. I'm tied down to a system that works, and is reliable. To push me off of it means another reliable system has to come into being, and give improvements to the technology (video and storage, in this case), without requiring a mortgage-sized investment. Considering HD will render my video equipment worthless, I'm more likely to chase down the DL options. I don't have 1080i and whatever else equipment. It depends on the nature of the HD, whether it'll still allow for VHS transfers, etc. The video format, resolutions, and other limitations.

[sammie]

But, even then taking your goal of just having higher end/better bitrate, will DL make significant enough gains to meet your criteria before Blu/HD become routinely available?

And that, my friend, is the magic question. Will +DL or even -DL be a success early enough to prevent holding out for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? I surely don't know. I've long said to leave the future to the future. I'm tied down to a system that works, and is reliable. To push me off of it means another reliable system has to come into being, and give improvements to the technology (video and storage, in this case), without requiring a mortgage-sized investment. Considering HD will render my video equipment worthless, I'm more likely to chase down the DL options. I don't have 1080i and whatever else equipment. It depends on the nature of the HD, whether it'll still allow for VHS transfers, etc. The video format, resolutions, and other limitations.

Hmmm, why are we going back and forth. Sounds like we agree Plus, the future is the easiest thing to um er discuss, no one knows the answer so you can go round and round for hours. Seriously, I do hope that DL works out. It COULD be a very reasonable alternative in a year or so, where at least for me Blu/HD sounds like it's about 3 years out. The problem I see/fear is that DL got about a year too late a start to be a completely serious competitor.

Actually, the bulk of the back-ups I am doing now are from a huge library of VHS video tape. Partly home movies, but many are old movies (I'm an old movie freak) that simply aren't available on DVD. So for a lot of what I'm doing the only thing a DL is going to to is allow me is to put 2 short movies (which I really have no desire to do) or one really long movie on a single disk or use a mostly wasted higher bit rate, neither of which is worth the cost or compatibility problems DL presents to me. Frankly the best thing I could have is for all set top boxes to start suddenly start playing 480 x 480 (or whatever the "native" resolution is for my capture chip) DVDs. A nice bit rate for a typical movie on a SL disk and no lost resolution from a VHS video tape.

[Noahtuck]

VHS tapes are still everywhere, and that's not been the major recording format for a couple of years now. And I doubt blank tapes are even going anywhere anytime soon.

Ya know what pitiful about that ?? (not your statement)
I know so many people that still buy VHS because they don't own a dvd player because they did'nt want to replace all their movies with dvd's
& a ton of people who have dvd players just hooked through their T.V. with so surround sound...... kind of... whats the point ?? LOL!!!!!
VHS.... mine gets turned on so little i don't even have the two i use plugged in anymore!!!!

[ha13may]

Hi!

Been thinking about this one for months now. Here is my opinion.

I just would never trust my data on any 'second layer', second side YES I would.

The DVD Forum should be smart not to release the 'minus' dual layer DVD-Rs. They should just keep on researching and experimenting with it. I personally don't think people would go for any dual layer media, plus or minus. I'm sure like me most people are waiting for 'blue-laser' DVD-Rs. Hopefully they should play back 'DVD Structures'. Even with the lower capacity HD-DVD, 3 complete ISO backups approx, movie-only backups could go upto 5. It seems DVD writers are reaching their max speed. Lately I have only seen tinkering with the DL write speeds which have jumped to 4. According to most articles some sort of next generation DVD-R should be hitting shelves next year. Even if not early next year but even late 2005 early 2006 would be worth it. It;s not that far away. I just don't see people adopting dual layer untill these next generation DVD-Rs come out.

My prediction: Dual layer will not be as popular as single layer DVD-R. Also people will not stop buying current DVDS and suddenly adopt the next generation pressed DVDs.

I personally will always just stick to whatever the DVD Forum approves.

These are just my personal thoughts, no offence intended to anyone.

Thanks![/list]

[fritzi93]

So, no matter how respected those certain members are on this site (some of them call themselves Post Whores), I would pretty much take their advice with a big lump of salt . Some of the elite don't even seem to care to [video]help other ordinary members (those people who don't happen to be hanging around in Out Of Topic forum).

I don't trust those off-topic regulars either. :P

Seriously, there are some real experts that hang out here (of which I ain't one ), and from what I've been able to gather, most will say:

1) There are many factors involved; software, burner, firmware, player, media, etc.

2) There are any number of valid ways to accomplish most objectives.

Therefore: Do what works.

I think a lot of guys are so fatigued with the +/- debate that they only give wiseguy answers anymore.

Back on topic. I can see dual-layer slowly gaining as people replace their present burners. Assuming it's not a lot more expensive, and media comes down enough in price. But the methods we have right now are not too bad, so convincing buyers to trash their single-layers would be a hard sell.

I'd be interested to know just how many people do what videohelp regulars do, versus those who buy XCopy and the like? Has all this become mass-market yet? Or just for experts and hobbyists?

[Sulaco]

Posted: Nov 30, 2004 14:02

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I pretty much detest the "backup" crowd altogether. I consider them a blight on the video hobby, especially the nerds that brag about their Netflix/BB activities. I can see valid reasons for backup technology, and I've used it myself quite a few times (in the early years, it was not easy!). It's nice to have backup ability, but there almost needs to be an IQ test or training video to watch before people are allowed to buy a burner.

How about not hijacking my threads anymore please.

[jimmalenko]

Great thread. While meandering off-topic slightly, very very informative IMO.

Will dual layer discs ever be affordable? Or will they become some specialty thing that stays overpriced? I am wondering if the demand will be great enough for us to see prices come down significantly over time. At ten dollars each, I am still waiting to buy any in quantity.

It is certainly going to be interesting to see how long DL is going to be the standard for. Once upon a time (S)VCD was king. Then CD burners maxed out and SL DVD burners came along. We have already seen SL burners max out and DL become available. How long until the next big thing is commerically available/viable I wonder ?

Once more manufacturers get involved in the media production, and - media becomes available, competition will (hopefully) drive prices down IMO.


BTW:

So, no matter how respected those certain members are on this site (some of them call themselves Post Whores), I would pretty much take their advice with a big lump of salt . Some of the elite don't even seem to care to [video]help other ordinary members (those people who don't happen to be hanging around in Out Of Topic forum).

Take my comments with a big lump of salt

[Mortomer]

Most complaints seem to come from people that either have not tried it at all (like Lordsmurf judging by his comments)

I completely concur with -jsl- there aren't nearly as many problems with DL media as some here would suspect you to believe. From my experience, as well as experiences from people I know, the cheaper their DVD player, the more problems on a Layerbreak. That may or may not be the norm for all but when I say cheap stuff like Apex, not necessarily price. When I got my Philips it was only $30 more then my Apex but it has never had a problem with any media, and that includes Dual Layer on the Layer breaks or anywhere else. I've used Nero to author and it's worked like a charm as an .ISO or as Files.

It's a real, real, shame this lordsmurf person continues to impose their views on people especially when they make their "opinions" out to be "facts." I don't know where the guy gets their information, but many times it's incorrect such as in this case here with DL media. What's even more disgraceful is the guy adamently promotes Supermediastore which happens to be a really poor vendor from my experience. Whether they are poor or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is when this character bashes other people who come forward and have a legitimate and honest gripe with supermediastore.

I've read and can easily find at least four posts where someone complains about supermediastore, and almost robotic like this guy comes and posts saying that they are lying, and this and that, This has literally happened four times or more and it's the reason I hardly visit this site anymore, and why i've ceased any donations to the site. I'd be willing to bet other members have done the same.

[Adder_78]

It's a real, real, shame this lordsmurf person continues to impose their views on people especially when they make their "opinions" out to be "facts." I don't know where the guy gets their information, but many times it's incorrect such as in this case here with DL media.

I think it's good that someone has strong opinions. Most of these guys who are yelling "DL media is perfect with my setup", "Princo is the best media for ever!!!11!!!" etc are in fact those guys who has only burned couple of those discs, or just had not tested those discs with other DVD Players etc. I have burned ~150-200 DL's (Verbatim/Ritek) with 5 different writers and I have seen that there is problems even with the Verbatim. There is no perfect DL media available. That is the fact. Some DVD-players wont play and some will play. Verbatim is better than Ritek (IMHO), but it's still not close to the perfect (if you compare to SL media).

There is couple nice things coming (Q1-Q2 2005) relating to DL media so lets just wait and see... 8)

I've read and can easily find at least four posts where someone complains about supermediastore, and almost robotic like this guy comes and posts saying that they are lying, and this and that, This has literally happened four times or more and it's the reason I hardly visit this site anymore, and why i've ceased any donations to the site. I'd be willing to bet other members have done the same.

If you have something personal to lordsmurf maybe you could give him PM or something? Or complain to the mods. Lets keep this On-topic.

[edDV]

Let me know when they hit $1 a disc and firmware is all debugged. Then I.m interested.

[RAAGAAman]

http://Adder_78 Wrote:<br /> Most of these guys who are yelling "DL media is perfect ...D Players etc.

Amen to this. Most do not know much about DVD write quality. I have tried Ricoh DL, Prodisc DL, MKM DL, CMC DL and Ritek DL. The only media that I have had any good success with is MKM and Ricoh. With Ricoh your drive better be tuned to write it since the default write strategy will probably not work. CMC is crap, Ritek is hit and miss and Prodisc is very marginal.
I see about a 40% compatibility rate with the media that is written successfully.
BTW, I would get used to DL layer disks since Blu-ray and HD DVD devices will also have the ability to write DL Blu disks eventually. Of course the hope is that the DVD Forum will make sure they have this possibility embedded in the specs for Players and recorders to recognize.
DL+-DL is not a format that anyone thought was possible a couple of years ago so the compatibility sucks. I don't think that the -DL disks will be any more compatible than the +DL disks. A player does not know to look for a Second layer when they see a "-R" bookcode in the disk lead-in.


RG

[Capmaster]

I think it's good that someone has strong opinions. Most of these guys who are yelling "DL media is perfect with my setup", "Princo is the best media for ever!!!11!!!" etc are in fact those guys who has only burned couple of those discs, or just had not tested those discs with other DVD Players etc.

Yes. Isn't it funny that they burn 6 or 7 discs and all of a sudden they're "experts"

My response is: "Come talk to me after you've burned 2000 or 3000 and we'll have something to discuss"

[discman07]

Most complaints seem to come from people that either have not tried it at all (like Lordsmurf judging by his comments)

I completely concur with -jsl- there aren't nearly as many problems with DL media as some here would suspect you to believe. From my experience, as well as experiences from people I know, the cheaper their DVD player, the more problems on a Layerbreak. That may or may not be the norm for all but when I say cheap stuff like Apex, not necessarily price. When I got my Philips it was only $30 more then my Apex but it has never had a problem with any media, and that includes Dual Layer on the Layer breaks or anywhere else. I've used Nero to author and it's worked like a charm as an .ISO or as Files.

It's a real, real, shame this lordsmurf person continues to impose their views on people especially when they make their "opinions" out to be "facts." I don't know where the guy gets their information, but many times it's incorrect such as in this case here with DL media. What's even more disgraceful is the guy adamently promotes Supermediastore which happens to be a really poor vendor from my experience. Whether they are poor or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is when this character bashes other people who come forward and have a legitimate and honest gripe with supermediastore.

I've read and can easily find at least four posts where someone complains about supermediastore, and almost robotic like this guy comes and posts saying that they are lying, and this and that, This has literally happened four times or more and it's the reason I hardly visit this site anymore, and why i've ceased any donations to the site. I'd be willing to bet other members have done the same.

Someone else sees what a phony this ls guy is...I have tested DL media extensively, both for myself and my customers and I have not had any trouble at all. I pay about 7 dollars each (in bulk quantity) for the ritek brand and I have yet to run across a bad burn. As for compatibility, with the bitsetting to DVD-ROM I am able to play discs in all of my test players-some that would never play a dash R disc, will play a DL. I have a Toshiba with mfg dat of april 98-(long before DL recordables were even a twinkle in some engineers eye) and it will play DL. Bottom line-DL disk work, and they work well.