Surrounding youself: just too difficult?

[ember]

Ok- I've mastered the art of making VCDs/SVCDs for my trusty old DVD player, and I am happy with my nice WS TV, but, I have been looking into adding surround speakers and ...it's just too expensive and too difficult. First, the speaker placement: you need a rectangle room and have your TV alligned to one wall. Not in the corner (this is how I have it). Then there's the cost, Buying an A/V receiver/decoder with DD5.1/DTS is too expensive - then there's speaker costs and cabling. I see TV and DVD players coming down in price but the audio side is way too costly and difficult. What do other people think?
Maybe they should design speakers that can detect each others position and vary the sound output accordingly (in case you can't set them up *geometrically* correct. This would give the consumer more freedom to place speakers to fit the room best. Just my 2 cents worth...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-28 21:04:42 ]</font>

[pacmania_2001]

I would recommend going to surround. I recently did it and had some hassles but managed to fix them. You are right though it is expensive. It really depends how interested you are in movies as to whether you want to spend the money.

[Kdiddy]

"Maybe they should design speakers that can detect each others position and vary the sound output accordingly (in case you can't set them up *geometrically* correct. This would give the consumer more freedom to place speakers to fit the room best. Just my 2 cents worth... "

That is going to cost way more than your 2 cents..you think its expensive now..LOL, I'll assume you arent base in the States, because a good basic home theater package is quite cheap...about 4-5 hundred dollars, I dont see how that is expensive to someone who could afford to purchase a "nice WS TV", then you should be able to afford a good home theater system....but on your postioning aspect, there is a tool out that Sony has that will help calibrate location & settings...its not cheap though...however, unless it has to be absolutely perfect, it is something that can easily done by your ear, because that is the true test, not some calculation.

[cruffino69]

Audio! My favorite topic! Imagine finding it here!

I think you're wrong about the cost of audio not coming down. If you look back several years, when Dolby Digital receivers started coming out, they were up there in price. Now you can get a receiver (decent quality) for US$200-US$300. That seems reasonable to me, especially since you're getting a tuner, preamp and (usually) 5 channels of amplification.

Good speakers on the other hand haven't so much. Why? My take is that the basic construction hasn't really changed in decades. You still have a wooden box (some fancier than others) and one or more dynamic drivers. The materials in the drivers have been updated and the sound improved, but the cost hasn't really been affected by these developments.

Here's where I diverge for a moment on not so much the cost of your home theater, but how to soften the brunt on your wallet.

Speakers for some people a religious topic. My opinion is, get the best speakers you can. They're the "weakest link" in the chain from the DVD to your ears. This is easy to observe: go to a store and sample the sound from several different pairs/sets of speakers driven by one receiver, then sample several different receivers driving one pair/set of speakers. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that there are differences among various receivers/amplifiers, just that they're *way* more subtle than between various speakers.

Since you'll be spending lots of cash on speakers ( ), to help take the edge off start with just the necessities: center and fronts. Manufacturers of decent speakers will usually offer a matched set of home theater speakers but allow you to purchase them ala carte. Pick the line that best suits your taste and budget. Most importantly, if you pick a good brand you'll keep those speakers for a long time, which means that you'll probably be moving those speakers to a new residence sometime. So don't waste too much time matching them to the room you're presently in.

What style of speaker? If you go with this piecemeal approach, you'll need a pair of front speakers that can handle a good deal of bass since you'll be purchasing your subwoofer later along with your missing rear channels.

The center channel is the most critical piece. All (well, most) of the dialog will come through it, so it needs to be absolutely clean in the midrange. Pay most of your attention to this during your auditions; you'll be happy you did.

Back on track to cost, let's talk about cables. Cables, cables, cables. Please, oh PLEASE don't get snagged by the snake oil and rhino tusk salespeople on this one. Good cables are important. $100/ft. cables is financial rape. For speakers, stick with a heavy guage and you'll be pleased. For those of us with less than a golden ear (that would be 99% of the planet's population), a spool of 16 ga. lamp cord (brown or white to match your decor!) is probably sufficient. So take all the money you just saved on these cables and go put it towards your speakers.

Interconnects are a somewhat different story. You want high quality interconnects because poor shielding can produce hum in your output. This only affects analog signals, though.

Digital signals were created to eliminate many of the problems with their analog counterparts. Yes, we traded some evils for others, but I don't think you'll find too many people who would go back. Digital signals can withstand noise much better (that's one of the evils we got rid of) so they can withstand somewhat cheaper interconnects. I'm certain there will be lots of people jumping all over me on this one. Go ahead, fire away. Shields are up.

What about difficulty? That's a tricky one. Getting the perfect setup requires effort, patience and a good setup guide. There are several DVD's you can purchase to help set up and calibrate your home theater. You may also need to purchase a sound level meter ($40 or less at your local Ratty Old Shack) but it's well worth the money.

When you're done auditioning, purchasing, setting up and tweaking you'll be very pleased with the results, not to mention amazed at what you've been missing from some of your DVD's.

But that's just my $.02...

[alucard2050]

I love he topic of surround sound. I love my theater. As far as worrying about your TV in the corner of the room, let me say, Don't worry about it to much. My parents have there TV in the corner and have a sony home theater. Even with the speakers not placed correctly like I like, it still adds great sound to their movies. They most of the time watch TV with the TV speakers I think to myself,"this is crazy". It took me almost 2 years to build my theater the way I like and as inexpensive as can be. Now with everything for it it's worth only about 500 bucks. 200 of it is for the powered sub. This only includes reciever,speakers,cables,5 disk cd changer,power sub, and yes, a dual tape deck. Yes some of us still have tapes yet to be put on CD. I am not finished though. I am sold on a Bose system. Just need the 2 grand for it. And a bigscreen TV. I am stuck with a 36 inch for now. A friend of mine has a 10 foot by 10 foot TV.(Or around that area). He got it from a friend of his who worked at concerts and did alot of stage work. It a projection TV. He doesn't have a screen because of the cost so he had to paint his wall in the highest gloss white he could find. and about 10 coats. It looks sweet. Another friend of mine has a smaller projection screen in his basement but, get this, its only for flight simulation games. He has an old barbers chair set in the middle of the room with a flight stick attatched directly in front. A full surround system with a 10 inch sub under the seat. You want to talk about realistic. Anyway, shop around and listen to some stuff. You'll be sold after a short while........

[ember]

Thanks to all who replied to my question. I think the problem with TVs in the corner is probably a UK "thing" ( I should have said 2p worth ). My room is L-shaped with the extremes being 17ft apart and the TV situauted in the top right hand corner of the "L" block. As you can imagine, placing front speakers and rear speakers is the problem. And I do want the best sound.
Is this just my problem? I don't think so- this is why I think setting up in UK homes is an issue. Other Brits can say otherwise but I am sure I am not in the minority.
Basically, UK rooms are much smaller than US. Houses are smaller. Therefore we tend to:
1. Fit tables, sofas, chairs etc up against the walls - leaving more space in the centre of rooms.
2. Place TVs in corners- to maximize viewing - more seats are facing the TV *head on* and viewer's vision is near enough at right angles to the screen.
3. Those houses that do have TVs up against a wall usually place them against the front window. The viewing positions are rarely opposite the TV because such rooms have an archway to get to the other end of room- so that you can't place seats there in the way.

EveryoneI know in my family and friends have TVs placed in corners or at an angle to a wall.

This is why we have difficulty placing surround systems in the UK. I expect sales are much lower. Also, the biggest TVs sold are 32in WS. You can buy larger but from specialist stores. I think this is because most TVs are placed in the corners and anything larger is unwieldy and takes up too much space - cutting out the corner of the room and invading alot of space.

I could be wrong here- but would like to hear from other UK ppl about the subject.
Finally - the cost - Dolby pro-logic receivers are about £100-£300 whilst DD5.1/DTS are double that price £600 (I think that's about $840 USD) so cost is definitely an issue here. Add to that a good set of speakers and you are having to pay out more for the audio aspect than visual (TV). When I get that good job I am going for surround, but I expect I am in the majority who think that the audio experience is too difficult to setup and costly.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-29 07:29:52 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-29 07:36:53 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-29 07:44:14 ]</font>

[alucard2050]

so what your saying is people sit on one side of the l shape and others sit on the other side of the l? front speakers shouldn't be a problem. you still get great sound with no rear but, you could purchase 2 sets of rear speakers, one for one side of the l and one set for the other. only problem is 2 sets spliced together would definatly cut down the watts going to each speaker. or, you could designate one side of the l as your home theater room, hook it all up, and enjoy it for your own pleasure.....

[ember]

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On 2001-11-29 20:44:25, alucard2050 wrote:
so what your saying is people sit on one side of the l shape and others sit on the other side of the l? front speakers shouldn't be a problem. you still get great sound with no rear but, you could purchase 2 sets of rear speakers, one for one side of the l and one set for the other. only problem is 2 sets spliced together would definatly cut down the watts going to each speaker. or, you could designate one side of the l as your home theater room, hook it all up, and enjoy it for your own pleasure.....
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A---X
P| |
P| |M__
P| |
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O P B

THE ABOVE PICTURE LOOKS SH*T PLEASE PRESS EDIT TO VIEW IT CORRECTLY. IF COMPLETELY CONFUSED PLZ IGNORE, MAKE COFFEE, AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE..
The layout is how it looks, with P=sitting arrangement. X is the corner where the TV reside- remember A to B is 17 ft only. The shape should have symmetry along line OM. The front speakers would not be able to fit equal distance from the TV. The rears are not gonna fit anywhere (The P side of the wall is in fact a window). I can't really partition the room into 2 because, simply , I would be left with 2 little boxes to live in!
I think I may need a new house, job, wife or else invest in those special speakers that detect relative position and change output accordingly

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-29 20:59:22 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-29 21:01:01 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ember on 2001-11-29 21:03:56 ]</font>

[alucard2050]

i see. it does look difficult. so skip the rear speakers and go with center, left, right, and a powered sub. the center channel sits on top the tv, then the other two can sit next to the tv. remember you don't have to get some massive size speakers with some 10" woofers in them. go for something small that maybe you can mount to the wall or sit on a speaker stand. then hide the sub anywere you want in the room. my suggestion is a downfireing sub if your floor is wood. if its carpet than go with a sidefireing to face a wall. about 200W will fill the room with the low's and all the base you'd need. i guarantee even with a simple setup with just the front's, you'll be extreamly happy with a much higher quality sound.......also, go to a store where they have the speakers sitting directly next to the tv. step back about 7 feet from the tv. tell them you want to eliminate the rear speakers, this will give you an idea of the sound quality with a setup i gave you.......

[alucard2050]

here's another idea. knock a hole in your wall and put the tv in there. if you have room on the other side of the wall......just a thought, i have a friend who has a 64 inch projection tv that did this. thing sits about 5 feet in the air. definatly a movie fan.......