dvd-r versus dvd+r

[lordsmurf]

Is that why Pioneer (main member of DVD Forum) came out with +DL burner?

No. That's what you call a "forced hand" in the open marketplace. Marketing has made it look like "dual format" burners are the "in thing". Therefore, anybody not "with it" is "out of it". They do it to keep the product moving. Even if that feature is poorly designed, the marketplace (mostly made up of clueless consumers) forced its inclusion.

Sony was the first one to make this concession. DVD+R was not doing well, so they made the dual-format burners for both media. Many sold. To keep pace, Pioneer was eventually forced into the same situation. As was everybody else.

Expect this trend to continue.

But it still does not change the fact that the high speed 12x/16x DVD+R and +R/DL is not cooperating very well for most people. Poor planning. They have to keep out in front, even if it means subpar products. They ARE the underdog in this game, the RW Alliance, and have been since the beginning.

You can love DVD+R all you want, but nothing can change the facts that problems have existed since the start, and continue to exist for them.

[Shocker Milwaukee]

FYI: the APEX 11** series often have different chipsets & firmware versions (and therefore varied results). My brother's plays bitset DVD+R & DVD-R.

[robrosen]

For console compatibility, you're generally better off with DVD-R. Most PC-mounted DVD readers or writers will read DVD-R. DVD+R is a little more problematic.

[xxiangg]

I have 4 DVD players. The oldest one is over 6 years (Pioneer 888).
All 4 play both +R and -R. I have dual DVD burners. Under the
situation that +R and -R be the same to me, and I can buy both
with the same price, I now only pick +R. I do not see the reason
to pick -R. But only the other hand, +R with bitsetting seems
make sense. If I can get a DVD-ROM, why should I choose -R instead?
In the worst case, they make no difference.

[hech54]

I use both + and - discs.
Have sent both to customers and friends.
Had ONE customer say a disc will not play....it was a -R BUT.....after checking....her machine was documented as NOT playing -R discs....only +R's.
To me there is no difference.
I also own a Philips DVD Recorder.....of course it is +R and that thing makes THE most compatible discs I have ever come across.
I buy quality discs at the best price I can find.....period.

[samijubal]

I refuse to use it just for the fact that they screwed everyone over because of their greed. Burners would be better and cheaper and so would media if they concentrated on 1 format instead of having to make compromises to do 2 formats. Technology would be further along and more reliable also. I'll stick with the DVD-R for this reason.

[Noahtuck]

I love it when people say that their DVD Player doesn't even play DVD - R discs. That's just pure BS.

If it has the DVD Video logo on it, it has to play DVD - R. It is mandated. If your player was made in 2000 or after, it will, and does play DVD-R, if not, then you are either using discs that do not conform to standards (Princo), or have a cheap and shoddy made DVD Player.

Not to start anything and this is PURELY personal experiance!!!!
But i have a "sampo" dvd player, #DVE-620, manufactured in march of 2001, it WILL NOT play or show a disc as being inserted, DVD-R, DVD+R or DVD+R set at DVD-ROM!!!! bought it brand new and since i started burning DVD's almost 2 years ago it has, and still does not, no matter what brand of media i try, only store bought dvd-rom movies.

On the other hand, i also have a "Pioneer DVL-700" DVD/LD combo player manufactured in april 1997 that plays ANYTHING & EVERYTHING i throw in it, "+" "-" & of course "+" set to DVD-ROM.

On DVD-R vs DVD+R. If you know what bit setting is, and your burner supports it, than DVD+R and DVD-R will have the same compatibility. If not, DVD+R is a hit and miss. Even on same model players. 2 out of 3 of my PS2s will not play DVD+R, my Panasonic s35 rejects it, and my old ass Provideo (with Circuit City's DIVX) rejects it. Pop in a DVD-R or a DVD+R with the bit setting to DVD-R or DVD-ROM, and all is fine.

I agree with the hit and miss for sure on "+" and i have an older PS2 and read on one of the PS2 site's, one that is very reputible, that PS2 would NOT read "+" & you had to use "-", but in my case "+" works much more reliable than the "-" on my PS2 regardless of the brand......

I used to be a big fan of "+", then slid over to "-" & now, hell, if it works I use it!!!!!!!!!
But my Panasonic DMR-E30, WILL NOT play "+" unless i set it to DVD-ROM then they play perfectly fine.

[Noahtuck]

For console compatibility, you're generally better off with DVD-R. Most PC-mounted DVD readers or writers will read DVD-R. DVD+R is a little more problematic.

Hmmm... see now, i have actually had more problems ripping from DVD-R more so than DVD+R ??

[samijubal]

My players play both. I would rather support Pioneer than Philips.

[tmelo36]

THE most compatible DVD/R media on the planet is +R media burned with DVD-ROM bitset..no exceptions.

The reason being is that -R media will always be recognised as -R where as a +R disc with a DVD-ROM bitset will always be recognised as a DVD-ROM, just like every dvd movie and game(aka pressed discs) at your local video store or wal-mart on the planet.

Reading this thread with all of the people answering -R is the shiznit cause thats what my dad has in his computer is really quite amusing. I'm sure you will all preach how Bill Gates is the devil and Windows is the biggest pile of dung out there, as well. Grow up.

How do you do that, the DVD-ROM bitset thing, may I ask? Can it be done through software?
Thanks

tmelo36

[xxiangg]

It all depends on which burner you have. The two burners I have are

Plaxtor712A: (you can use Nero 6.3X and plexortool to do bitsetting)
LiteOn812: (you can use Nero 6.3X, Kprob, and etc to do bitsetting)
Notice, Nero probably no longer support bitset for LiteOn drivers.

By the way, I still would like to hear if I have DVD-ROM (+R with bitset),
why should I go with -R. (Forgive me, I do not care if I should support
Pioneer or Philips).

[lordsmurf]

By the way, I still would like to hear if I have DVD-ROM (+R with bitset),why should I go with -R. (Forgive me, I do not care if I should support Pioneer or Philips).

For all intents and purposes, DVD-R and DVD-ROM react the same. Remember, the DVD Forum carefully planned out what worked best. Reflectivity has far, far more to do with discs playing, than the format type or bitset. DVD-R is also plagued by cheap media (DVD+R has few manufacturers), so the negative results are skewed by this.

[Blkout]

I love it when people say that their DVD Player doesn't even play DVD - R discs. That's just pure BS.

The DVD Forum, those responsible for the whole entire DVD Video, DVD Audio, and DVD Player thingy, came up with DVD - R. If it has the DVD Video logo on it, it has to play DVD - R. It is mandated. If your player was made in 2000 or after, it will, and does play DVD-R, if not, then you are either using discs that do not conform to standards (Princo), or have a cheap and shoddy made DVD Player.

On DVD-R vs DVD+R. If you know what bit setting is, and your burner supports it, than DVD+R and DVD-R will have the same compatibility. If not, DVD+R is a hit and miss. Even on same model players. 2 out of 3 of my PS2s will not play DVD+R, my Panasonic s35 rejects it, and my old ass Provideo (with Circuit City's DIVX) rejects it. Pop in a DVD-R or a DVD+R with the bit setting to DVD-R or DVD-ROM, and all is fine.

About the BS that cdfreaks taunts as +R format being better. Sure, on paper it does look better, but after 3 years, none of these features are said to be so good, have yet to surface on a reader, nor a writer. So it's useless propaganda.

For the uneducated, DVD+R could be better. There is little to no research on purchasing media. Since 80% of all DVD+R media is either RICOH or MCC, how can go wrong? But you have burners that do not, and will not support bit setting (Toshiba, Pioneer, NEC....) because they view this as a hack that should not be used.

With DVD-R, if only everyone would OEM Taiyo Yuden or Maxell, it would be the same. It's the shitty taiwan (CMC, TDK, Verbatim, Prodisc, Princo, Ritek, Gigastorage................) media makers whom believe quantity before quality that are at fault. Thank God Pioneer, Toshiba, and NEC know how to make a quality burner that can cope with the above low grade media.

I wouldn't call Verbatim discs garabge, I've been using them for years with no problems at all in my readers or writers. I think you're info is off.

[disturbed1]

Verbatim did use to make quality products, when it was made in Singapore, since they contracted CMC to make their current discs, it is no where near the quality it used to be. Verbatim moved their production to Taiwan, inside of CMCs plant, with CMC employees making the discs. Same with TDK.

Good Stuff? sure, in the top 3-4 like they used to be, it is not.

I have the exact results with Prodisc, MCC, and Optodisc on my NEC burners. Why should I pay extra for MCC when Optodisc is just as good.

The way I see it, DVD media has been around long enough for these companies to be able to make a high quality product. Instead of improving their discs, most have decided to forego quantity before quality, as a way to increase profits. The media is, if anything, lower quality than it once was, and is left up to the burners to compensate for the flaws in the media.

For someone that has used Verbatim for a couple of years, you should know that they have changed their entire manufactoring process.

By saying that it's still Verbatim quality, just made by different people, is like saying my Levis (now made in Mexico) are the same quality they once were when made in the USA. This just isn't the case either. Same materials, same specs, different quality of workmanship.

Cheap labor creates a cheap product.

[Marty2003]

Well, I've just recently bought myself a DVD burner, so I'm relatively new to this. When choosing which kind of media to buy I decided to go with DVD+R/W, after doing research. I did read that cdFreaks article beforehand and I have to say it did influence my decision to go for +. After my research I concluded that DVD+R has more "features". The higher frequency Wobble groove being one of them. I also read somewhere that +R supports CAV and CLV writing, where -R only supports one of them, I can't remember which right now. If this is even true, I'm not sure, It probably doesn't even make a difference anyway so this point is probably moot anyway. -R also wastes more space on multisession discs, and I tend to use multisession a lot. Bitsetting is also another feature that drew me to +R.

So far I've only burned 10 discs, but so far no coasters. I scan all my burns using Nero CD-DVD speed, The speed graphs have all been smooth except one disc with had dust on it pre-burn and now has dust spots burned onto the disc . None of my burns even have PI Failures, so I'm guessing something is going right with my +R's. I only have 1 DVD player to test on, but so far all the discs play fine, I don't think compatibility is going to be an issue. I don't think the % difference in compatibility between -R and +R is that great, and the gap should be getting smaller as more players are being produced because most modern players should support both without a hitch.

In the end I think it just depends on what YOUR players support, and personal preference.

[Blkout]

Verbatim did use to make quality products, when it was made in Singapore, since they contracted CMC to make their current discs, it is no where near the quality it used to be. Verbatim moved their production to Taiwan, inside of CMCs plant, with CMC employees making the discs. Same with TDK.

Good Stuff? sure, in the top 3-4 like they used to be, it is not.

I have the exact results with Prodisc, MCC, and Optodisc on my NEC burners. Why should I pay extra for MCC when Optodisc is just as good.

The way I see it, DVD media has been around long enough for these companies to be able to make a high quality product. Instead of improving their discs, most have decided to forego quantity before quality, as a way to increase profits. The media is, if anything, lower quality than it once was, and is left up to the burners to compensate for the flaws in the media.

For someone that has used Verbatim for a couple of years, you should know that they have changed their entire manufactoring process.

By saying that it's still Verbatim quality, just made by different people, is like saying my Levis (now made in Mexico) are the same quality they once were when made in the USA. This just isn't the case either. Same materials, same specs, different quality of workmanship.

Cheap labor creates a cheap product.

Still don't agree and in the case of Verbatim, you're just wrong, but apparently you don't know it. I've used Optodisc in the past, 75% of the discs became unreadable after almost 6 months of use, no scratches or blemishes, the disc was just unreadable. I've yet to have a Verbatim disc go bad on me and this is after a year of use. They are not even in the same category so please stop telling people they are.


It sounds like by your last statement that you are just biased towards the US, don't get me wrong, I'm more patriotic than anyone I know but to imply that something made in another country is inferior to the US just because the labor is cheaper there is ridiculous.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[lordsmurf]

MCC is not the same quality as it used to be, but it's still close enough, and it's still some of the best media.

[loconess]

if you say + is problematic, then what operating system do you use?

Dont say microsoft windows!!!!!

How does MS find out about windows flaws?

I would rather have it than not have it at all.
You can live without windows, you can live without + and/or -.
If it was not for +, we have only started to burn -8x.
(I still burn at 4 to 8x +/-) (my car can go 150mph, but im not stupid, at least i know i can, like i know i can burn 12x/16x +only)

+/- is more sofeware problem if you can change + to dvd-rom

so i think its fair to make this assumption:
dvd- = dvd-rom
dvd+r --> dvd-rom
in conclusion: dvd-r = dvd+r

if you're waiting for -DL,
i say good luck!!! (testing and all)

dont say u rather support pioneer over philips.
besides philips, there's also dell, hp/compaq, sony
so pick your worst nightmare

[lordsmurf]

so i think its fair to make this assumption:
dvd- = dvd-rom
dvd+r --> dvd-rom
in conclusion: dvd-r = dvd+r

Cow = food
Apple = food.
so....
cow = apple

[loconess]

so i think its fair to make this assumption:
dvd- = dvd-rom
dvd+r --> dvd-rom
in conclusion: dvd-r = dvd+r

Cow = food
Apple = food.
so....
cow = apple

you = human
me = human

you are not me

apple is MORE specifically a fruit
cow not fruit
you could be food to certain people

you= cow = apple

thats it
this is stupid

[Shocker Milwaukee]

I don't remember algebra being this confusing...

[racer-x]

Well I guess I'm one of those "Stupid People" that bought a "+R only" burner 3 years ago and still use it today. It's bitset to DVD-ROM. I've burned dammed near a thousand disks and never a coaster. I produced and sold my videos to hundreds of clients, yet never had one returned because of compatability problems. My burner works so well, that I never bothered to upgrade it, even though it only burns @ 2.4x and takes 25 min to burn a full disk.

Yes, I must be stupid alright............. or could it be the other way around?

[disturbed1]

Verbatim did use to make quality products, when it was made in Singapore, since they contracted CMC to make their current discs, it is no where near the quality it used to be. Verbatim moved their production to Taiwan, inside of CMCs plant, with CMC employees making the discs. Same with TDK.

Good Stuff? sure, in the top 3-4 like they used to be, it is not.

I have the exact results with Prodisc, MCC, and Optodisc on my NEC burners. Why should I pay extra for MCC when Optodisc is just as good.

The way I see it, DVD media has been around long enough for these companies to be able to make a high quality product. Instead of improving their discs, most have decided to forego quantity before quality, as a way to increase profits. The media is, if anything, lower quality than it once was, and is left up to the burners to compensate for the flaws in the media.

For someone that has used Verbatim for a couple of years, you should know that they have changed their entire manufactoring process.

By saying that it's still Verbatim quality, just made by different people, is like saying my Levis (now made in Mexico) are the same quality they once were when made in the USA. This just isn't the case either. Same materials, same specs, different quality of workmanship.

Cheap labor creates a cheap product.

Still don't agree and in the case of Verbatim, you're just wrong, but apparently you don't know it. I've used Optodisc in the past, 75% of the discs became unreadable after almost 6 months of use, no scratches or blemishes, the disc was just unreadable. I've yet to have a Verbatim disc go bad on me and this is after a year of use.

If you are going to lie, at least be consistant. Your first statement was a couple of years, and now it's only a year.

It sounds like by your last statement that you are just biased towards the US, don't get me wrong, I'm more patriotic than anyone I know but to imply that something made in another country is inferior to the US just because the labor is cheaper there is ridiculous.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And also biased towards products made in Japan . Since there is no media made in the us. It is common knowldge that Japan makes the finest products in electronics, and most items made in Taiwan, and China, are no where near the same quality.

I don't care what you think, or what you claim to know, since you have proved your inability read thus far.

[Blkout]

Verbatim did use to make quality products, when it was made in Singapore, since they contracted CMC to make their current discs, it is no where near the quality it used to be. Verbatim moved their production to Taiwan, inside of CMCs plant, with CMC employees making the discs. Same with TDK.

Good Stuff? sure, in the top 3-4 like they used to be, it is not.

I have the exact results with Prodisc, MCC, and Optodisc on my NEC burners. Why should I pay extra for MCC when Optodisc is just as good.

The way I see it, DVD media has been around long enough for these companies to be able to make a high quality product. Instead of improving their discs, most have decided to forego quantity before quality, as a way to increase profits. The media is, if anything, lower quality than it once was, and is left up to the burners to compensate for the flaws in the media.

For someone that has used Verbatim for a couple of years, you should know that they have changed their entire manufactoring process.

By saying that it's still Verbatim quality, just made by different people, is like saying my Levis (now made in Mexico) are the same quality they once were when made in the USA. This just isn't the case either. Same materials, same specs, different quality of workmanship.

Cheap labor creates a cheap product.

Still don't agree and in the case of Verbatim, you're just wrong, but apparently you don't know it. I've used Optodisc in the past, 75% of the discs became unreadable after almost 6 months of use, no scratches or blemishes, the disc was just unreadable. I've yet to have a Verbatim disc go bad on me and this is after a year of use.

If you are going to lie, at least be consistant. Your first statement was a couple of years, and now it's only a year.

It sounds like by your last statement that you are just biased towards the US, don't get me wrong, I'm more patriotic than anyone I know but to imply that something made in another country is inferior to the US just because the labor is cheaper there is ridiculous.

I've come to the conclusion that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And also biased towards products made in Japan . Since there is no media made in the us. It is common knowldge that Japan makes the finest products in electronics, and most items made in Taiwan, and China, are no where near the same quality.

I don't care what you think, or what you claim to know, since you have proved your inability read thus far.

I am consistent, I just didn't see the need to provide you with every little detail. I've used Verbatim CD's for MANY years, I've been using their DVD's for about a year now. Sorry I wasn't more clear but that's what you get for jumping the gun to defend yourself when you know you are clearly wrong here. There is NOTHING wrong with Verbatim media, you preach about things you know nothing about. To compare Verbatim media to Optodisc is obsurd.

The forum is designed for others to learn, if you don't know what you're talking about, which it appears you don't here, please stay out of the conversation instead of spreading false information to others.

Thanks!

[disturbed1]

All I ask, is that click the little post icon, and read a couple of the posts I've made since 2001.

Media is something I do know a whole lot about.

Once again, you are not reading the whole post. I began with, It is left up to a quality burner ..... , and ended with On my NECs.....

A person with 1/4 a brain can understand that. The truth of the matter is that Verbatim is now shit compared to what it once was. Even in the CD department. The CDs no longer carry MCC, but CMC instead. Even the pastels (which were once Taiyo Yuden) are not so any more.

You should really do some research before posting. Burning CDs for a couple of years isn't that long. You have missed a bit of history. I began burning CDs in 1995, and DVDs in early 2001. Does this qualify myself to know more? Not really, but it does edge the experience factor. As it does for many of the other forum members who have been at this hobby for just as many years, and much longer.

[RottenFoxBreath]

not having any problems with DVD+DL discs,on my 2 year old LG system,xbox,ps2,or any of my others.
ripped and burnt using ISO -read/write with dvd decrypter.
+r has always been ok with me,more so recently,as i got rather picky about media,with all the cheapo brands appearing.
as for which is better,i beleive that the TY myth is fast evaporating as all media quality is going down the shitey,the more they make,the more they cant check.
so just for now,ill stick with whatever quality media i can get my hands on for a reasonable price.

[Capmaster]

The DVD-R versus DVD+R threads usually end up as flame wars.

Remember ...people .....that we all have our opinions and chances are we will not convince the "other guy" that our viewpoint is the correct one.

Remember that DVD-R and DVD+R are so close to each other that it's really like comparing apples and apples ...and arguing that clearly "apples" are the better choice

Let's keep it friendly, eh?

BTW, this is not directed at anyone in particular ...just a friendly reminder

[loconess]

so, cap,

do you like red apples or green apples?

[Gillies]

this is the hackiest argument... who really cares... they're pretty much the exact same fuckin thing... try them both, what ever works go with it. move on

[lordsmurf]

so, cap,

do you like red apples or green apples?

Green apples for pie and juice.
Red apples for eating plain.