I've seen those EDTV's out there. What are they?? A stripped down HDTV?????
---I'm a complete noob to hdtv, don't have one and not sure when I'll get one. I do know some basics based on working with dvds though ---
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Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
Actually, EDTV sounds very interesting. Similar to the conventional TV signal, but without the interlacing. Gets quality close to HDTV. Here's a good article I found. http://www.projectorcentral.com/video_signals.htm
I haven't finished reading it myself.
Originally Posted by redwudz
Thanks for the link
I guess that makes it a stripped down hdtv than
KevinDonatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
Originally Posted by yoda313Originally Posted by lordsmurf
Why do you americans use all these silly terms? And that article seems confused, it says 16:9 comes with HDTV, yet doesn't mention it all for "EDTV".....
What's the point in a progressive 4:3 television set with a 16:9 DVD??
They're right about one thing though - staff never know what they're talking about. i remember hearing "Well RGB means instead of drawing the picture vertically, it does it horizontally, like a pc monitor."
It's resolution HDTV 720P-1080i, EDTV less than 720
EDTV is really crappy digital television. not even the real HDTV deal, just watered down digital TV with the visual quality of regular analog tv.
"It's resolution HDTV 720P-1080i, EDTV less than 720"
How close do you have to be to it to notice that?
EDTV is standard definition TV but it's progressive not interlaced.
Originally Posted by choirislife923
Originally Posted by flaninacupboard
(see edited text below)
Originally Posted by edDV
that is one long post....but bottom line:
EDTV = bad...345,600 pixels max (.35 megapixels)
HDTV = good...2,073,600 pixels max (2 megapixels)
UHDV = holy sh*t...33,177,600 pixels max (33 megapixels) [coming around 2044]
My attempt was to put some context to the discussion.
I would disagree that EDTV is "bad", its just not HDTV. If EDTV is bad, what would you call all this divx and xvid "@#!&*" people are collecting ?
About ~95% of DVD users haven't yet experienced full progressive (60 frames/sec) 16:9 DVD playback on a decent screen. It is a major step up from NTSC (composite or S-Video). DTV and EDTV get this quality into normal TV broadcasting.
Consider that current NTSC broadcasting is effectively only 330x480 (158,400) so it's all relative.
HDTV goes up from there and 1080P (1920x1080) is only the top of the consumer HDTV standard.
Multiplex cinema digital theatre projection will start around 4000x4000 and go up from there at your local theater.
I saw a few posts that people couldn't tell an edtv picture from a hdtv picture...
I have a Panasonic Tau with component inputs, it does 480i/p & dvds are 480i/p so I think that is a nice match. Don't have hdtv here yet.
Believe it or not, visually there's not that much of a difference between high quality HDTV and EDTV plasma screens that I've looked at. That is when you view HDTV signals. On HDTV plasmas it just looks a little sharper, but nothing to be really amazed at, compared to EDTV. EDTV though, when properly set up, still looks much better than interlaced NTSC TV.
It's always easier to scale down than scale up, and scaled down version will look better. For example, have you tried resizing highly compresed JPEG images? When you upscale a JPEG in looks blurry and crappy, though there are indeed more pixels. But when you downscale a JPEG it will look smaller, but at the same time cleaner and perceptually better. It will not print on paper well at all, but it will look better on the computer monitor. Which leads me to the next thing...
If you plan on watching a lot of quality DVD's, EDTV plasma is the best way to go. Because of the near perfect resolution match, there's not much up/down-scaling to do and the DVD's look simply amazing. But if you view DVD's on HDTV plasma, things become noisy and blurry.
We just recently got a Panasonic TH-42PWD6UY EDTV professional plasma progressive monitor, and it's definitely the best bang for the buck. For only about $2000 you get 42" screen, PAL/SECAM/NTSC/PAL60/Component/PC inputs, the best contrast ratio on the plasma market. I've never seen DVD's look this great on other, more expensive plasma screens (HDTV). And seeing how clear and sharp the setup menus look on this EDTV plasma, I think that quality HDTV signals will look amazing too. And another thing, the deinterlacing and 3:2 pulldown engine on this set is the best I've seen. You don't even need a progressive scan DVD player, because this plasma does such a good job making a signal progressive.
Even the stuff recorded with my PAL videocameras (Sony DCR-VX1000E and DCR-TRV900E) looks outstanding, especially when I used OpTex 16:9 anamorphic lens . Come to think of it, 720p is not that much better than PAL's 576i (when it's properly converted to progressive). And even though this set is native 480p, belive it or not, PAL still looks sharper than NTSC on it. That proves it that the number of TV's pixels doesn't mean that much for the actual reproduction/perception. I've seen $5000-$8000 plasmas and projection TV's with HDTV resolution that picture-quality-wise looked like the color TV's from about 1980's era compared to this set's almost computer monitor level of clarity.
So, it's really all about finding the right manufacturer and model. The number of pixels doesn't mean anything if the rest of the processing is crap. And after seeing some of the recent HDTV broadcasts (BestBuy, CircuitCity, Tweeter, etc.), where picture literally falls apart from pixelation on each pan, I don't have any desire to upgrade to HDTV signal anytime soon. I'd rather have a slightly softer, but clean picture of EDTV resolution, than slightly sharper but horribly noisy and pixelated picture of HDTV.
Oh great !!! we have a discussion going
I basically agree but can't respond in detail now. EDTV is a standardized and worthy port in the storm. I hope prices can be lowered by creating demand in this specific DTV-SDTV niche and I would happily buy one if I could receive DTV-SDTV at my current location. It makes a perfect intermediate step for most people.
Sadly, my only option is a limited 1080i channel selection over cable or sat. This may be controversial, but I consider the current HDTV TV market a snakes in the grass, buyer beware road trip. Potential buyers need to know exactly what they are buying. Prices will be in freefall for the next few years.
"About ~95% of DVD users haven't yet experienced full progressive (60 frames/sec) 16:9 DVD playback on a decent screen."
Progressive scan DVDs don't play at 60fps. DVDs are generally 60 interlaced frames (half frames). If the material was shot on film (24fps 90+% of the time) then 60i will deinterlace to 24fps progressive with a 3:2 pulldown process. If it's not shot on film (video shot at 60i for instance) then 60i will deinterlace to 30fps progressive. 60 half frames combine to make 30 full frames or 24 frames with 3:2 pulldown.
I can't believe someone here said TV looks as good as DVDs. I have a DLP and CRT projector and that couldn't be farther from the truth. The difference between my DVDs and TV on my 9ft screen is night and day. The difference appears to be as much as the difference between HDTV and DVDs.
TV looks decent on my PJs, but DVDs look awesome.
Commercial DVD discs are designed to play 720x480 interlaced directly so that entry level DVD players that output NTSC/PAL and interlaced analog component can be cheaply made.
Progressive DVD players use the information on the DVD disc to create a 60 (59.94 actually or 50 for PAL areas) frame per second (480p) output on the component analog or sometimes DVI/HDMI outputs. EDTV and HDTV sets expect to see 480p from a progressive DVD player.
The quality of the progressive creation varies by the quality of the DVD player's progressive processor. 3:2 pulldown artifacts will be processed correctly by higher quality players.
DTV in 704x480 progressive mode (SDTV level as displayed on EDTV) is effectively equal in picture quality to 480p DVD. That is in theory. Broadcasters won't put the same production quality effort into their normal broadcasts that a movie company will. In theory, if you play a DVD at the TV station through DTV SDTV in progressive there will be little or no degradation to the picture as seen on the TV set vs playing the DVD locally.
In practice this may not be the case due to the various paths broadcasts can be routed. Quality is limited by the weakest link in the chain.
Here is how Toshiba describes their handling of 3:2 24fps in their players
"Digital Cinema Progressive: Reduces motion artifacts and picture breakups especially on hightly detailed or fast-moving images. An automatic circuit deployed in Toshiba ColorStream ProŽ models recognizes 24-frame content on DVD discs. When activated it converts the film standard of 24-frames-per-second record on the disc to the progressive scan standard of 60-frames-per-second for display on HD-compatible televisions.
Benefit: Provides smoother, clearer picture from discs encoded at 24 frames per second. Especially useful for highly detailed or fast-moving images."
Here is an article that gets to the real issues of progressive playback from a DVD player and how 24 frames per second data on the DVD disc (for film sources) is converted to 59.94 frames per second 480p. The same issues apply to film source playback over DTV (SDTV 704x480 progressive).
"What the heck is 3:2 pulldown? by Dan Ramer"
The key paragraphs follow:
"Progressive Scan DVD Players
As I mentioned earlier, film is stored on DVD as 480i at the equivalent of 24 frames per second. When a conventional player recognizes the appropriate MPEG-2 frame repeat flag, it performs the 3:2 pulldown in real-time, but progressive scan players can react to this flag in a different way. Such a player can create progressive video in real-time .It reconstructs each video frame by weaving together its odd and even fields, then repeats the video frames in a recurring 3:2 pattern. The resulting video signal will contain the same frame sequence and the same horizontal and vertical scan rates as are produced by the line doubler. This is a simpler process than is required in a line doubler since the player does not have to examine the fields to determine how to perform the weaving; no DVD derived from film contains a video frame with images from two film frames.
One potential advantage of performing this process within the DVD player is that it's done entirely in the digital domain, so no signal degradation occurs. An external line doubler accepts a DVD's video signal in analog form, such as component or S-video. The line doubler must digitize the video to bring it into its digital processing circuitry. The line-doubled digital video is then transformed to analog once again for compatibility with the video display. With no less than an analog buffer, an anti-aliasing filter, a sample-and-hold, an analog-to-digital converter, a digital-to-analog converter, another anti-aliasing filter, and another analog buffer involved in the conversions from analog to digital to analog, there's quit a bit of circuitry that can get in the way of a pristine signal. Only the most expensive video processors, costing thousands of dollars, will perform these tasks without visibly degrading the video.
Please note that for a video display to properly present such progressive video or line-doubled signal, it must be capable of dealing with about 31,500 scan lines per second - twice the normal rate. Interestingly, the vertical sync rate remains the same as conventional NTSC video, 59.94 Hz."
I need a new tv,anybody have any links or recommendations for a 32" EDTV?
P.S:I can't afford an HDTV yet.
Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
These are fine for use with cable or satellite HDTV set top boxes. They will need a separate tuner (aprrox $200-400) plus an antenna to receive over the air DTV.
EDTV is very popular at 42" and above for plasma displays (typ ~800 x 480 16x9 progressive resolution). Prices for a 42" run $1500-3500 and more for a 50".
example EDTV (some have tuners others don't)
Note that the Panasonic has 4000:1 contrast ratio, the cheaper ones are near 1000:1. You need to see the set before you buy.
other inexpensive HDTV Ready CRT links
Originally Posted by edDV
just thought i'd say, chanel 7 in australia uses what is considered EDTV for their HDTV chanel, which is at 576p
with the difference between PAL DVD (576P) and "HDTV" (720P) being -half- the quality of a VCD, i think describing 576P as HD is ok. it certainly looks better than analogue TV.
"(720P) being -half- the quality of a VCD"
Please define what you mean by "VCD"
576p (720x576) is the "PAL world" equivalent of progressive EDTV 480P (704x480) in the USA. In other words these are progressive versions of the current standard D1 (576i) related broadcast tapes and similar to current DVD (but less compressed).
Is Australia confusing 576p with HDTV?
720P is defined here in the USA as 1280x720.
1080i is 1920x1080.
"Please define what you mean by "VCD"
OK I finally got it.
1280x720 minus 720x576 is .... ... 560x144 ? VCD is 352x240
I'm still trying to get the point.
PAL VCD is 352x288, so half that is 144. so for me to "upgrade" from 576p to 720p i only get an extra 144 lines, half the lines in a VCD. just trying to point out that there is not a big difference between 576p and 720p.
Originally Posted by flaninacupboard
576p (720x576) is roughly equivalent to current DVD or EDTV (704x480p) in the USA which is considered enhanced standard not high definition.
I'm not saying 576p isn't desirable as an intermediate and affordable step, but 1280x720 progressive is a major step up (922 Kpixels vs 415 Kpixels).
In a few years 1920x1080 progressive (2074 Kpixels) will become affordable.
I'm not disagreeing with you, we just have different perspecitves. in PAL land where 576p is considered the norm, there is little to no incentive to upgrade to HDTV because there's only 144 more lines, wheras NTSC folks get 240 more.
Without closer ananlysis i'm not convinced that the 1280 width gives much improvement over 720 for films. probably a lot easier to read when you hook up your PC though
Originally Posted by flaninacupboard