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  1. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Hello,

    I've seen those EDTV's out there. What are they?? A stripped down HDTV?????

    Kevin

    ---I'm a complete noob to hdtv, don't have one and not sure when I'll get one. I do know some basics based on working with dvds though ---
    Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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  2. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    Actually, EDTV sounds very interesting. Similar to the conventional TV signal, but without the interlacing. Gets quality close to HDTV. Here's a good article I found. http://www.projectorcentral.com/video_signals.htm

    I haven't finished reading it myself.
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  3. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by redwudz
    Actually, EDTV sounds very interesting. Similar to the conventional TV signal, but without the interlacing. Gets quality close to HDTV. Here's a good article I found. http://www.projectorcentral.com/video_signals.htm

    I haven't finished reading it myself.
    Hello,

    Thanks for the link

    I guess that makes it a stripped down hdtv than

    Kevin
    Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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  4. Member SLICK RICK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by yoda313
    Originally Posted by redwudz
    Actually, EDTV sounds very interesting. Similar to the conventional TV signal, but without the interlacing. Gets quality close to HDTV. Here's a good article I found. http://www.projectorcentral.com/video_signals.htm

    I haven't finished reading it myself.
    Hello,

    Thanks for the link

    I guess that makes it a stripped down hdtv than

    Kevin
    Yep, I guess that's why it cheaper that HDTV.
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Nobody likes a bunch of yackity-yack.
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  5. Member flaninacupboard's Avatar
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    Why do you americans use all these silly terms? And that article seems confused, it says 16:9 comes with HDTV, yet doesn't mention it all for "EDTV".....
    What's the point in a progressive 4:3 television set with a 16:9 DVD??

    They're right about one thing though - staff never know what they're talking about. i remember hearing "Well RGB means instead of drawing the picture vertically, it does it horizontally, like a pc monitor."

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    It's resolution HDTV 720P-1080i, EDTV less than 720
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    EDTV is really crappy digital television. not even the real HDTV deal, just watered down digital TV with the visual quality of regular analog tv.
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  8. "It's resolution HDTV 720P-1080i, EDTV less than 720"

    How close do you have to be to it to notice that?
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  9. EDTV is standard definition TV but it's progressive not interlaced.
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  10. Member flaninacupboard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by choirislife923
    EDTV is really crappy digital television. not even the real HDTV deal, just watered down digital TV with the visual quality of regular analog tv.
    Yeah, because DVD and standard analogue TV are the same quality
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by flaninacupboard
    Originally Posted by choirislife923
    EDTV is really crappy digital television. not even the real HDTV deal, just watered down digital TV with the visual quality of regular analog tv.
    Yeah, because DVD and standard analogue TV are the same quality
    Let me give it try. I'll confine this the US NTSC and DTV. We can do PAL later if anyone wants.

    (see edited text below)
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  12. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by flaninacupboard
    Originally Posted by choirislife923
    EDTV is really crappy digital television. not even the real HDTV deal, just watered down digital TV with the visual quality of regular analog tv.
    Yeah, because DVD and standard analogue TV are the same quality
    Let me give it try. I'll confine this to US NTSC and DTV. We can do PAL later if anyone wants.

    Standard NTSC TV is analog 525 lines 60 fields per second interlaced.
    - aspect ratio is 4 units horizontal by 3 units vertical
    - active picture area is 480 to 486 lines scanned vertically, 240-243 lines scanned in each field.
    - maximum horizontal video resolution is measured in perceived lines as viewed on a test pattern
    • VHS and 8mm tape - 240 lines (@3MHz luminance bandwidth)
      Broadcast TV - 330 lines (@4.1MHz luminance bandwidth)
      S-VHS and Hi8 tape - 400 lines (@5MHz luminance bandwidth)
      Studio Quality Cameras - >640 lines (@>6.75MHz luminance bandwidth)
    Digitized NTSC Analog Video
    The analog video raster is already quantized into 480 lines scanned vertically. When horizontal lines are quantized to form square pixels the resulting raster is 640x480 pixels for a single frame. This is due to the 4x3 aspect ratio of the raster. Square pixels are common in the computer world.

    The international broadcasting industry decided on a different non-square pixel raster of 720x480 for NTSC systems and 720x576 for PAL systems for reasons of interchange compatibility. The reasons go beyond the scope of this discussion.

    ...Important Note #1: All NTSC video is scanned into 480 scan lines vertically, so in theory 480 samples of resolution exists vertically. Horizontal pixels along each line have been sampled for reasons other than the inherent resolution of the sampled video. Even if a perfect VHS SP tape containing a perceived 240 lines of horizontal resolution is sampled into 640 or 720 pixels accross the line, it will still have at most 240 lines of perceived resolution in digital form. Alternatively a high resolution photo scanner could sample a photo and down into 640x480 (square pixel) or 720x480 (narrow pixel) at full resolution.

    D1 Videotape, DV Digital Camcorders and DVD Disc
    These all use the same 720x480 luminance raster (720x576 in PAL system) but differ in chrominance sampling and compression. We will focus only on luminance for this discussion.

    These are digital standards where original digital source material that equals or exceeds 720x480 resolution (e.g. professional video cameras, 35mm film transfers) are displayed in the full 720x480 resolution. In the case of consumer DV camcoders and low resolution material rendered to DVD, oversampling may exist in either H or V. In all cases there is a fixed 720x480 primary raster.

    This class of digital video standard allows for either 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratios. The 4:3 (narrow pixel) or 16:9 (stretched wider pixel) aspect ratios are determined during the production stages of the material. Aspect ratio can change from scene to scene. Direct display of this material assumes reception by a digital TV that can self switch into the correct aspect ratio based on format information contained in the video. Display on conventional TV sets requires a menu driven player/converter that converts the signal to the desired analog format (e.g. a conventional DVD Player).

    DTV (SDTV)
    Digital television (DTV) broadcasting is currently a parallel service to the conventional analog broadcast system. DTV is broadcast on separate channels (usually UHF) and requires a DTV set (or tuner) for reception. DTV broadcasts cannot be received on conventional TV set tuners. A single channel of DTV can broadcast 4 or more standard definition (SDTV) streams or one high definition channel (HDTV). A single SDTV stream is effectively very close to the current DVD disc resolution and compression although the luminance raster is clipped to 704x480 to minimize black edges. SDTV DTV can be broadcast in 4:3 aspect ratio or 16:9 widescreen, interlace or progressive.

    DTV and EDTV television sets
    Simple DTV sets have 4:3 aspect screens and usually operate only in interlace mode. They display 4:3 SDTV programs directly. 16:9 aspect ratio material is displayed by the automated pan and scan method. Progressive material is converted to interlace if required.
    EDTV digital televisions usually have 16:9 screens and display 16:9 480p progressive program material directly. They also directly play back widescreen DVD 480p progressive material. When presented with 4:3 aspect programs, an EDTV will center the image and black side edges will be seen. Special effects may hide these black edges. If an interlace DTV broadcast is received, the EDTV will convert it to a progresssive 60 frames per second display. If a HDTV broadcast is received by a EDTV, it will down convert to 704x480p widescreen for display.

    DTV HDTV Sets

    DTV-HDTV sets have DTV tuners and can tune SDTV or HDTV channels directly. SDTV channel streams or external DVD players can be displayed in progressive 4:3 or 16:9 formats at 480p. In some sets, multiple PIP SDTV streams can be displayed. In others, up interpolation to native HDTV display resolution may be provided.

    Each HDTV will have a native optimal display resolution that can be anything over 720x480p. I'm not sure where the lower limit is for the HD logo, but there are current HDTV monitors out there with only ~800 to 1024 horizontal resolution and 720 to 1050 vertical resolution. DTV HDTV can be broadcast in over a dozen formats. Internal TV electronics convert the signal to native resolutions as shown below.

    ...Important Note #2: Know what display resolution you are buying. 720p or 1080i refer to the input signal formats, not the actual display resolution. Typical HDTV display resolutions are:

    HDTV Direct View CRT..............800-1024 h.....720-1080 v......HD interlace or 480p

    Projection or direct view
    (CRT, DLP, LCD).......................800-1450 h.....720-1080 v..... HD interlace or 480p
    (under $4000)
    Note. most plasmas under $4000 are EDTV (480p)

    Proj or direct (plasma, LCD)....1280-1450 h.....720-1080 v...... HD interlace or 480-720p
    (over $6000)

    Super high end plasma.....................1920 h...........1080 v......Progressive (1080P)
    (>$18,000)

    Note: 1080P is not a planned DTV broadcast standard. 1080p 24fps material is expected to be available on Blu-Ray DVD or other future media. Thes sets will up convert 1080i or 720p to 1080p 60fps for display



    I've attempted to keep this simple for the layman (non-geek). Maybe it is too simplified. Please help me correct or improve this article.
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    that is one long post....but bottom line:
    EDTV = bad...345,600 pixels max (.35 megapixels)
    HDTV = good...2,073,600 pixels max (2 megapixels)
    UHDV = holy sh*t...33,177,600 pixels max (33 megapixels) [coming around 2044]
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    My attempt was to put some context to the discussion.

    I would disagree that EDTV is "bad", its just not HDTV. If EDTV is bad, what would you call all this divx and xvid "@#!&*" people are collecting ?

    About ~95% of DVD users haven't yet experienced full progressive (60 frames/sec) 16:9 DVD playback on a decent screen. It is a major step up from NTSC (composite or S-Video). DTV and EDTV get this quality into normal TV broadcasting.

    Consider that current NTSC broadcasting is effectively only 330x480 (158,400) so it's all relative.

    HDTV goes up from there and 1080P (1920x1080) is only the top of the consumer HDTV standard.

    Multiplex cinema digital theatre projection will start around 4000x4000 and go up from there at your local theater.
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  15. I saw a few posts that people couldn't tell an edtv picture from a hdtv picture...

    I have a Panasonic Tau with component inputs, it does 480i/p & dvds are 480i/p so I think that is a nice match. Don't have hdtv here yet.
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  16. Member Edmund Blackadder's Avatar
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    Believe it or not, visually there's not that much of a difference between high quality HDTV and EDTV plasma screens that I've looked at. That is when you view HDTV signals. On HDTV plasmas it just looks a little sharper, but nothing to be really amazed at, compared to EDTV. EDTV though, when properly set up, still looks much better than interlaced NTSC TV.

    It's always easier to scale down than scale up, and scaled down version will look better. For example, have you tried resizing highly compresed JPEG images? When you upscale a JPEG in looks blurry and crappy, though there are indeed more pixels. But when you downscale a JPEG it will look smaller, but at the same time cleaner and perceptually better. It will not print on paper well at all, but it will look better on the computer monitor. Which leads me to the next thing...

    If you plan on watching a lot of quality DVD's, EDTV plasma is the best way to go. Because of the near perfect resolution match, there's not much up/down-scaling to do and the DVD's look simply amazing. But if you view DVD's on HDTV plasma, things become noisy and blurry.

    We just recently got a Panasonic TH-42PWD6UY EDTV professional plasma progressive monitor, and it's definitely the best bang for the buck. For only about $2000 you get 42" screen, PAL/SECAM/NTSC/PAL60/Component/PC inputs, the best contrast ratio on the plasma market. I've never seen DVD's look this great on other, more expensive plasma screens (HDTV). And seeing how clear and sharp the setup menus look on this EDTV plasma, I think that quality HDTV signals will look amazing too. And another thing, the deinterlacing and 3:2 pulldown engine on this set is the best I've seen. You don't even need a progressive scan DVD player, because this plasma does such a good job making a signal progressive.

    Even the stuff recorded with my PAL videocameras (Sony DCR-VX1000E and DCR-TRV900E) looks outstanding, especially when I used OpTex 16:9 anamorphic lens . Come to think of it, 720p is not that much better than PAL's 576i (when it's properly converted to progressive). And even though this set is native 480p, belive it or not, PAL still looks sharper than NTSC on it. That proves it that the number of TV's pixels doesn't mean that much for the actual reproduction/perception. I've seen $5000-$8000 plasmas and projection TV's with HDTV resolution that picture-quality-wise looked like the color TV's from about 1980's era compared to this set's almost computer monitor level of clarity.

    So, it's really all about finding the right manufacturer and model. The number of pixels doesn't mean anything if the rest of the processing is crap. And after seeing some of the recent HDTV broadcasts (BestBuy, CircuitCity, Tweeter, etc.), where picture literally falls apart from pixelation on each pan, I don't have any desire to upgrade to HDTV signal anytime soon. I'd rather have a slightly softer, but clean picture of EDTV resolution, than slightly sharper but horribly noisy and pixelated picture of HDTV.
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  17. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Oh great !!! we have a discussion going

    I basically agree but can't respond in detail now. EDTV is a standardized and worthy port in the storm. I hope prices can be lowered by creating demand in this specific DTV-SDTV niche and I would happily buy one if I could receive DTV-SDTV at my current location. It makes a perfect intermediate step for most people.

    Sadly, my only option is a limited 1080i channel selection over cable or sat. This may be controversial, but I consider the current HDTV TV market a snakes in the grass, buyer beware road trip. Potential buyers need to know exactly what they are buying. Prices will be in freefall for the next few years.
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  18. "About ~95% of DVD users haven't yet experienced full progressive (60 frames/sec) 16:9 DVD playback on a decent screen."

    Progressive scan DVDs don't play at 60fps. DVDs are generally 60 interlaced frames (half frames). If the material was shot on film (24fps 90+% of the time) then 60i will deinterlace to 24fps progressive with a 3:2 pulldown process. If it's not shot on film (video shot at 60i for instance) then 60i will deinterlace to 30fps progressive. 60 half frames combine to make 30 full frames or 24 frames with 3:2 pulldown.

    I can't believe someone here said TV looks as good as DVDs. I have a DLP and CRT projector and that couldn't be farther from the truth. The difference between my DVDs and TV on my 9ft screen is night and day. The difference appears to be as much as the difference between HDTV and DVDs.

    TV looks decent on my PJs, but DVDs look awesome.
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  19. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Commercial DVD discs are designed to play 720x480 interlaced directly so that entry level DVD players that output NTSC/PAL and interlaced analog component can be cheaply made.

    Progressive DVD players use the information on the DVD disc to create a 60 (59.94 actually or 50 for PAL areas) frame per second (480p) output on the component analog or sometimes DVI/HDMI outputs. EDTV and HDTV sets expect to see 480p from a progressive DVD player.

    The quality of the progressive creation varies by the quality of the DVD player's progressive processor. 3:2 pulldown artifacts will be processed correctly by higher quality players.

    DTV in 704x480 progressive mode (SDTV level as displayed on EDTV) is effectively equal in picture quality to 480p DVD. That is in theory. Broadcasters won't put the same production quality effort into their normal broadcasts that a movie company will. In theory, if you play a DVD at the TV station through DTV SDTV in progressive there will be little or no degradation to the picture as seen on the TV set vs playing the DVD locally.

    In practice this may not be the case due to the various paths broadcasts can be routed. Quality is limited by the weakest link in the chain.

    http://hometheater.about.com/od/beforeyoubuy/a/progressivescan.htm
    http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.40

    Here is how Toshiba describes their handling of 3:2 24fps in their players

    "Digital Cinema Progressive: Reduces motion artifacts and picture breakups especially on hightly detailed or fast-moving images. An automatic circuit deployed in Toshiba ColorStream ProŽ models recognizes 24-frame content on DVD discs. When activated it converts the film standard of 24-frames-per-second record on the disc to the progressive scan standard of 60-frames-per-second for display on HD-compatible televisions.
    Benefit: Provides smoother, clearer picture from discs encoded at 24 frames per second. Especially useful for highly detailed or fast-moving images."
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  20. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Here is an article that gets to the real issues of progressive playback from a DVD player and how 24 frames per second data on the DVD disc (for film sources) is converted to 59.94 frames per second 480p. The same issues apply to film source playback over DTV (SDTV 704x480 progressive).

    "What the heck is 3:2 pulldown? by Dan Ramer"
    http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

    The key paragraphs follow:

    "Progressive Scan DVD Players

    As I mentioned earlier, film is stored on DVD as 480i at the equivalent of 24 frames per second. When a conventional player recognizes the appropriate MPEG-2 frame repeat flag, it performs the 3:2 pulldown in real-time, but progressive scan players can react to this flag in a different way. Such a player can create progressive video in real-time .It reconstructs each video frame by weaving together its odd and even fields, then repeats the video frames in a recurring 3:2 pattern. The resulting video signal will contain the same frame sequence and the same horizontal and vertical scan rates as are produced by the line doubler. This is a simpler process than is required in a line doubler since the player does not have to examine the fields to determine how to perform the weaving; no DVD derived from film contains a video frame with images from two film frames.

    One potential advantage of performing this process within the DVD player is that it's done entirely in the digital domain, so no signal degradation occurs. An external line doubler accepts a DVD's video signal in analog form, such as component or S-video. The line doubler must digitize the video to bring it into its digital processing circuitry. The line-doubled digital video is then transformed to analog once again for compatibility with the video display. With no less than an analog buffer, an anti-aliasing filter, a sample-and-hold, an analog-to-digital converter, a digital-to-analog converter, another anti-aliasing filter, and another analog buffer involved in the conversions from analog to digital to analog, there's quit a bit of circuitry that can get in the way of a pristine signal. Only the most expensive video processors, costing thousands of dollars, will perform these tasks without visibly degrading the video.

    Please note that for a video display to properly present such progressive video or line-doubled signal, it must be capable of dealing with about 31,500 scan lines per second - twice the normal rate. Interestingly, the vertical sync rate remains the same as conventional NTSC video, 59.94 Hz."
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  21. I need a new tv,anybody have any links or recommendations for a 32" EDTV?
    P.S:I can't afford an HDTV yet.

    Thanks
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  22. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    I need a new tv,anybody have any links or recommendations for a 32" EDTV?
    P.S:I can't afford an HDTV yet.

    Thanks
    At 32" you probably can afford a HDTV ready CRT which will hava a resolution around 850-1080 h x 1080 v and be compatible with 1080i or 480p (EDTV) inputs. Sunday ads have them for the $500-1000 price range.

    These are fine for use with cable or satellite HDTV set top boxes. They will need a separate tuner (aprrox $200-400) plus an antenna to receive over the air DTV.

    EDTV is very popular at 42" and above for plasma displays (typ ~800 x 480 16x9 progressive resolution). Prices for a 42" run $1500-3500 and more for a 50".

    example EDTV (some have tuners others don't)
    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=697268&Sku=...&CMP=KNC-GOOGL
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1089890509583&skuId=6784367&type=product&cmp=++
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1091099812390&skuId=6720952&productCategory...6&type=product

    Note that the Panasonic has 4000:1 contrast ratio, the cheaper ones are near 1000:1. You need to see the set before you buy.

    other inexpensive HDTV Ready CRT links
    http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_shopping.jsp?coe=0&oidPath=0%3a-23542%3a-23589%3a-2...cfkjdgoodflh.0
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1077624868351&skuId=6376502&productCategory...2&type=product
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  23. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    I need a new tv,anybody have any links or recommendations for a 32" EDTV?
    P.S:I can't afford an HDTV yet.

    Thanks
    At 32" you probably can afford a HDTV ready CRT which will hava a resolution around 850-1080 h x 1080 v and be compatible with 1080i or 480p (EDTV) inputs. Sunday ads have them for the $500-1000 price range.

    These are fine for use with cable or satellite HDTV set top boxes. They will need a separate tuner (aprrox $200-400) plus an antenna to receive over the air DTV.

    EDTV is very popular at 42" and above for plasma displays (typ ~800 x 480 16x9 progressive resolution). Prices for a 42" run $1500-3500 and more for a 50".

    example EDTV (some have tuners others don't)
    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=697268&Sku=...&CMP=KNC-GOOGL
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1089890509583&skuId=6784367&type=product&cmp=++
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1091099812390&skuId=6720952&productCategory...6&type=product

    Note that the Panasonic has 4000:1 contrast ratio, the cheaper ones are near 1000:1. You need to see the set before you buy.

    other inexpensive HDTV Ready CRT links
    http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_shopping.jsp?coe=0&oidPath=0%3a-23542%3a-23589%3a-2...cfkjdgoodflh.0
    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1077624868351&skuId=6376502&productCategory...2&type=product
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    just thought i'd say, chanel 7 in australia uses what is considered EDTV for their HDTV chanel, which is at 576p
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  25. Member flaninacupboard's Avatar
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    with the difference between PAL DVD (576P) and "HDTV" (720P) being -half- the quality of a VCD, i think describing 576P as HD is ok. it certainly looks better than analogue TV.
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  26. Member edDV's Avatar
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    "(720P) being -half- the quality of a VCD"

    Please define what you mean by "VCD"

    576p (720x576) is the "PAL world" equivalent of progressive EDTV 480P (704x480) in the USA. In other words these are progressive versions of the current standard D1 (576i) related broadcast tapes and similar to current DVD (but less compressed).

    Is Australia confusing 576p with HDTV?

    720P is defined here in the USA as 1280x720.
    1080i is 1920x1080.


    "Please define what you mean by "VCD"

    OK I finally got it.
    1280x720 minus 720x576 is .... ... 560x144 ? VCD is 352x240
    I'm still trying to get the point.
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  27. Member flaninacupboard's Avatar
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    PAL VCD is 352x288, so half that is 144. so for me to "upgrade" from 576p to 720p i only get an extra 144 lines, half the lines in a VCD. just trying to point out that there is not a big difference between 576p and 720p.
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  28. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by flaninacupboard
    PAL VCD is 352x288, so half that is 144. so for me to "upgrade" from 576p to 720p i only get an extra 144 lines, half the lines in a VCD. just trying to point out that there is not a big difference between 576p and 720p.
    I beg to differ, assuming you have a TV capable of 720p resolution (1280x720 progressive). This in my opinion is the best quality for the money HDTV available in the USA considering current HDTV progressive display technology.

    576p (720x576) is roughly equivalent to current DVD or EDTV (704x480p) in the USA which is considered enhanced standard not high definition.

    I'm not saying 576p isn't desirable as an intermediate and affordable step, but 1280x720 progressive is a major step up (922 Kpixels vs 415 Kpixels).

    In a few years 1920x1080 progressive (2074 Kpixels) will become affordable.
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  29. Member flaninacupboard's Avatar
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    I'm not disagreeing with you, we just have different perspecitves. in PAL land where 576p is considered the norm, there is little to no incentive to upgrade to HDTV because there's only 144 more lines, wheras NTSC folks get 240 more.

    Without closer ananlysis i'm not convinced that the 1280 width gives much improvement over 720 for films. probably a lot easier to read when you hook up your PC though
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  30. Originally Posted by flaninacupboard
    in PAL land where 576p is considered the norm
    PAL is 576i.
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