Do You Smoke?

[888888]

Quitting is for pussies.

[thor300]

Im a smoker and i agree with Vitualis (could very well be my first time ). Theres no need to bug others with our habit. I have no plans of quitting but im still able to see that smoking IS bad for our surroundings. Demn, last time i was sick and someone smoked in the house, it was TERRIBLE! I support smokefree pubs (and other smokefree public places) 100.0%.

[glockjs]

it's ok to drink yourself to death. it's ok to pop pills all day long. but forbid that I have a smoke. nothing left in this world but hypocrites. what im doing is non of your concern, but what your doing is all of my concern....that type of mentality kills me.

Again, primary school logic.

BTW, it generally isn't okay to drink yourself to death (most civilised countries have laws against serving someone alcohol who are inebriated), and it isn't okay to pop pills all day long (doctors who prescribe large amounts of drugs of dependence like opiates or benzodiazepines are generally investigated).



Regards.

primary school logic?

what im saying, the people pointing the finger has issues of their own. should i start taking up their causes??? tell me how many of the people making non smoking inside a place of business actualy go out to the bar? how many go to the clubs? tell me who outnumbers who in those instances? explain to me the compromise?? have the resturants, but dont take the bars. thats all im sayin...

[Capmaster]

I hear what you're saying glock. People who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones

I knew a guy here at work - a militant, outspoken anti-smoking activist (an ex smoker...no surprise there). He was constantly speaking of the evils of smoking every time the subject came up. It's always "You guys are killing yourselves ...don't you care about your bodies", and "you guys ought to be fired for smoking at work", and "you're polluting my air, *******".

Well, about 10 years ago he killed a middle-aged woman who was on her way to see her daughter in the South Valley. He was driving while under the influence, and didn't see the light turn red, apparently. He also killed himself in the wreck.

Now .....as far as public safety goes ....who would you rather be sharing the road with?:

glockjs, who smokes tobacco, a non-mind-altering substance, .....

or Tom, who fatally t-boned another car after getting blind drunk?

But .....glockjs will get ostracized because of his "filthy habit" ...mainly because it's more out in the open. Drunk drivers don't wear a sign, after all. And they don't take any heat for their habit, because of the secrecy, until it's too late ...often with a tragic outcome.

What's wrong with this picture? :P

I know people will argue that bartenders will cut the drunk off before he's too drunk. Have you ever lived with a drunk? I have. They have bottles all over ...the trunk of their cars, in the linen closet, behind a bush in the back yard, in the laundry hamper .... what about the guy who lives alone ...who's going to cut him off?

Do you really think being cut off by a bartender is gonna stop someone who is determined to continue drinking?

Now ...is it fair that the taboo habit is smoking, when drunken driving is still so common?

[NamPla]

Non-smokers are delusional, they think that cigarettes kill you. They're wrong. Death comes to each & every one of us, whether we smoke or not. I think non-smokers have a classic case of the ol' "death fear" - they're in denial.

I think Freud talked about how our deep, fundamental fear of death gets sublimated & channelled into bizarre "moral outlooks" and weird-ass human behaviour.

People gotta face up to reality. Smoking kills ya. So what? We all die anyway, regardless...

[ZAPPER]

But I don't wanna die!

Anyhow, the two best drags off of a smoke are the first and the last. Everything in between is just wasted time. Maybe they should start making smokes only 1/2" long. (nah, I would have to smoke like 500 a day then) Maybe I should dig around in my closet and find my old "one hitter" from my misguided youth and smoke tobacco like that.(one hit at a time)(nah, holding it in until my eyes buldge out is kind of unattractive)

[mats.hogberg]

glockjs, who smokes tobacco, a non-mind-altering substance, .....

or Tom, who fatally t-boned another car after getting blind drunk?

But .....glockjs will get ostracized because of his "filthy habit" ...mainly because it's more out in the open. Drunk drivers don't wear a sign, after all. And they don't take any heat for their habit

Are you seriuos? At least where I come from, drunk driving is a real no-no, not equal to, but up there with rape, child molesting and the like (slight exaggeration here). Simply, you take a lot of heat, caught driving drunk. Much more than getting caught smoking in a non-smoking area will ever get you. But as someone said before, addicts can go to any length to rationalize their behaviour, normally intelligent people revert to primary school logic (

Now ...is it fair that the taboo habit is smoking, when drunken driving is still so common?

) &c, &c...

/Mats

[NamPla]

But I don't wanna die!

Nor do I! But while I'm waiting for my inevitable armageddon, I'll smoke/drink/snort whatever the **** I want!

Everyone else can KISS MY ASS! :P (Stupid yuppies, ha ha)...

[glockjs]

damn cap, thats one messed up dude...

a point was made earlier about smoking being socialy accepted but none the less shouldnt be. but then what about alcohol? very well accepted by society but some how smoking shouldnt be. i see these laws being passed in my opinion to get everybody to quit smoking. well then lets make drinking illegal everywhere else but in your home as well, right? people drinking are destroying their bodys just as well. and caps story does happens all too often as well. but some how non smoking laws are getting passed left and right but alcohol is un touched?

im still stuck on this compromise thing as well....still waiting for somebody to explain to me how these laws are a compromise ya know where the two partys meet in the middle type of thing....

there's alot of other things that are worse than smoking that people do day to day. but some how go un noticed. with that, why is so much energy being focused on what i should or shouldnt do with my own body when these people pointing their fingers should be worried about themselves..

[NamPla]

there's alot of other things that are worse than smoking that people do day to day. but some how go un noticed.

Yes, like masturbation!

[mats.hogberg]

Yes, like masturbation!

That furtunately doesn't have adverse effects on your surrounding... Now lock this thread before it gets completey out of hand!

/Mats

[Capmaster]

glockjs, who smokes tobacco, a non-mind-altering substance, .....

or Tom, who fatally t-boned another car after getting blind drunk?

But .....glockjs will get ostracized because of his "filthy habit" ...mainly because it's more out in the open. Drunk drivers don't wear a sign, after all. And they don't take any heat for their habit

Are you seriuos? At least where I come from, drunk driving is a real no-no, not equal to, but up there with rape, child molesting and the like (slight exaggeration here). Simply, you take a lot of heat, caught driving drunk. Much more than getting caught smoking in a non-smoking area will ever get you. But as someone said before, addicts can go to any length to rationalize their behaviour, normally intelligent people revert to primary school logic (

Now ...is it fair that the taboo habit is smoking, when drunken driving is still so common?

) &c, &c...

/Mats

Mats,

Officially, of course drunken driving is bad news. But it still goes on here ...a lot. New Mexico is right up there leading the country in per-capita DWI cases. It's almost an epidemic in some counties here.

But ....they make it easy ...offering drive-up liqour store windows ...like fast food. Too drunk to get out of your car and stagger in to get your whiskey or beer? ...no problem :P It's sad. Yet there isn't nearly the outcry to do away with these sorts of businesses. Instead they have focused on the evil smokers ....painting it in a much more sinister light than the drunk drivers. True.

I don't know how it is in Sweden, but that's the climate here.

The point I was making wasn't to say smoking is great ...it was to comment on the taboo society has placed on smoking, as opposed to excessive drinking ....and how it has prioritized what it sees as "big problems". Cigarette ads are banned from TV here, but not liquor. It all just seems backwards :P

And so far the thread seems to be on topic, and nobody's gotten flamed. As soon as it circles the drain, if it does, I'll lock it down myself

[mats.hogberg]

I get your point. Still, I'm pretty sure of that deaths caused by direct or indirect exposure to tobacco smoke far outnumbers deaths directly or indirectly caused by alcohol. Here are some figures I found with a quick Google:
Motor vehicle accidents: 42,437
Homocide: 16,831
Suicide: 29,041
AIDS: 16,765
Tobacco related: over 430,000
Interesting reading indeed (figures from 99). Of those 42 thousand motor vehicle accidents, I'm sure some 10% are related to drunk driving - 1% of the tobacco related casualties. So, what is the big problem?

But as I've been there myself (4 years since I kicked the habit) I can relate to your arguments, and would probably have used them myself, was I still a smoker.

/Mats
PS! IMHO, neither tobacco nor alcohol ads should be allowed. DS

[Capmaster]

I get your point. Still, I'm pretty sure of that deaths caused by direct or indirect exposure to tobacco smoke far outnumbers deaths directly or indirectly caused by alcohol. Here are some figures I found with a quick Google:
Motor vehicle accidents: 42,437
Homocide: 16,831
Suicide: 29,041
AIDS: 16,765
Tobacco related: over 430,000
Interesting reading indeed (figures from 99). Of those 42 thousand motor vehicle accidents, I'm sure some 10% are related to drunk driving - 1% of the tobacco related casualties. So, what is the big problem?

But as I've been there myself (4 years since I kicked the habit) I can relate to your arguments, and would probably have used them myself, was I still a smoker.

/Mats
PS! IMHO, neither tobacco nor alcohol ads should be allowed. DS

8)

[Tranceaddict]

yup... i smoke cigarettes and weed!

[888888]

Tobacco related: over 430,000

Oh great, not the "half million Tobacco deaths a year" figure again. I read a great article that completely dissected that number. A good lie will never die as they say. Take your propaganda elsewhere and think for yourself instead of letting TV commercials and Pharmaceutical companies do it for you.

Just to give you an example of why that number is bullshit:

100 year old grandma dies. She is a moderate smoker. Her death is automatically a smoking-related death. Regardless that she lived well past her life expectancy and her illness may not even have been smoking related.

Another example:

Young man dies in a fire started by a misplaced cigarette. This is also a smoking related death.

Finally:

Two brothers die of heart attacks the same year. One smokes and one doesn't. One will be a smoking attributed death.

This number has been ENGINEERED to make money for all the parties that PROFIT off anti-smoking. There are tons of vile people who make a living off smokers, including the scum at the American Legacy Foundation, health "advocates", and politicians who have now raised Tobacco taxes to NAZI-ERA levels.

In our age, smoking is politics and politics is smoking. The subject probably should not be discussed in this forum. If you want a good source of information on smoking and personal liberty in general, go here:

http://www.forces.org/

Otherwise, you guys can probably continue at politick.

[Thomas Davie]

Quit 6 years ago after having smoked for 4 years. Regret ever having started. Don't crave it now, but do not mind being around other people who smoke (eg, girlfriend, niece, sister, etc).

I'll still regularly take a smoking section in a restaraunt for the sake of people I am with.

Tom

[thor300]

Smoking should be banned from public places, in Norway its already banned from pubs/restaurants and even though i hated the idea when i first heard about it, i now like it alot when i got around to trying it.
To NamPla: You are right about the "in denial", just that it seems like you are the one whos in denial. How could anyone deny that smoking can be uncomfortable for the ones around you? Im sure you would also feel uncomfortable if someone came into your livingroom and made a campfire, or if they burn old newspapers inside your regular pub. Smoke is smoke to nonsmokers, no matter how delicious a cigarette can taste.

[Capmaster]

Quit 6 years ago after having smoked for 4 years. Regret ever having started. Don't crave it now, but do not mind being around other people who smoke (eg, girlfriend, niece, sister, etc).

I'll still regularly take a smoking section in a restaraunt for the sake of people I am with.

Tom

All ex-smokers/non-smokers should be as considerate and understanding as you are Tom

[vitualis]

For you people who think that smoking doesn't cause illness or doesn't cause excess mortality, you really need a reality check.

That smoking is a strong risk factor for heart attacks, stokes and peripheral vascular disease is undeniable.

Of diseases that would be extremely rare if not for smoking include lung cancer and chronic obstructive airways disease. Lung cancer in a way isn't too bad. You don't live particularly long and if get a good treating team most of your symptoms (e.g., pain) can be treated.

COPD on the other hand is a terrible illness. People often don't know something is seriously wrong until their first hospitalisation with an infective exacerbation. Imagine living the rest of your life always feeling short of breath. There is no cure. Every time you get another infective exacerbation and have to come to hospital, your lung function gets a little bit worse. If you stop smoking at this stage, it will stabilise but many people continue to smoke... truly into the grave.

Again, as for you people claiming "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", "there are more important things", etc., these are childish arguments. Let's explore:

1. "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" -- that is no more than a simplistic justification for anarchy. You could use that argument to justify anything. For example, "the police have no right to investigate ME because in THAT CASE they were BIASED/CORRUPT/RACIST". If you want a functional civil society then you should respect the laws of your own society. If you don't like the laws then I suggest you speak to your local representative. You Americans live in a democracy, remember? If the overall will of society is that smoking in pubs and bars should be banned, then you should have the decency to respect it.

As for the spurious statement made by someone that "non-smokers don't go to bars/pubs", that is one of the silliest statements on this thread. Of course we do. And guess what, a lot of us would enjoy it a whole lot more if we didn't have to breath in someone else's second hand smoke.

2. "There are more important things" -- of course there are. What's your point? I can think of numerous things that are probably more important than banning smoking in pubs/bars. That doesn't mean that we ignore the topic. Accessible health care and international terrorism is probably more "important" than timely local garbage collection too but it is shouldn't be neglected.

I can't say for the US, but in Australia, public drunkedness is not viewed trivially. You can't serve alcohol to someone who is inebriated and it is a crime to do so. Drinking and driving is a serious crime.

As for "banning" drinking in public places, it is not acceptable in many places (e.g., the workplace, government buildings, etc.). The difference between alcohol and tobacco, is that you can drink alcohol responsibly in public in such a way that it doesn't really affect any one else. If they made a cigarette that didn't put out any smoke, it probably wouldn't be banned (but it really wouldn't be a cigarette anymore either... ).

[vitualis]

...why is so much energy being focused on what i should or shouldnt do with my own body when these people pointing their fingers should be worried about themselves..

Because the first time that a smoking related illness forces you to seek medical attention, it affects everybody else in the society. You are more likely to get chest infections as a smoker. You are more likely to get cardiovascular disease as a smoker. You are more likely to get lung cancer as a smoker. You are more likely to get COPD as a smoker. You are more likely to get an anaesthetic complication as a smoker. You are more likely to get a post-operative infection as a smoker.

Nothing against YOU personally, but this is about public health. If less people smoke in the population, less of all the above happens on a large scale.

Regards.

[NamPla]

For you people who think that smoking doesn't cause illness or doesn't cause excess mortality...

What is "excess" mortality?

Is that like, smokers die "more", and non-smokers die "less"??

[yoda313]

For you people who think that smoking doesn't cause illness or doesn't cause excess mortality...

What is "excess" mortality?

Is that like, smokers die "more", and non-smokers die "less"??

Hello,

Yeah us nonsmokers only get put 6ft under - smokers go 12ft under so the living don't smell the smoke as much!

Kevin

[vitualis]

Don't be obtuse. It's obvious what it means.

We are talking about dying "more" over a given period of time.

For example, if there are two matched populations A and B where the only difference is that group B has "X", and the mortality rate of A = 10 per 100,000 and B = 20 per 100,000, then the excess mortality in group B is 10 per 100,000 per year.

Yes, we all die, but I would much rather have one death per 80 years of life compared to one death per 70 years of life (and not be debilitated with smoking related illness in the last 15 years before my death).

Regards.

[SatStorm]

I don't smoke.
I don't have problem with those that smokes.
I don't choose a girlfriend that smokes.
I don't allow people to smoke at my house.

simply mind, simply rules

[NamPla]

Virtualis, no one knows when they're gonna die. You can eat healthy, exercise every day, go to church on sundays etc etc, but suddenly you're diagnosed with cancer or a brain tumour or struck down with a stroke overnight... You give too much faith to statistics. What if you're one of the "standard deviations" (or whatever it's called :P ) and find yourself terminally ill out of the blue?

All I'm saying is, nobody should fret too much. Do whatever that pleasures you for the moment!!! "Drink & be happy, for tomorrow we die" kinda thing.

When you start worrying about statistics too much, you'll die of stress & anxiety!!!

(BTW I looked up the word "obtuse", as it seems to be one of your favourite words! :P = "blunt (not pointed)"... also, "greater than 90 degrees but less than 180 degrees...")

EDIT: BTW I don't smoke either, nor allow it in the bedroom! :P )

[glockjs]

yes taking out the garbage has to be done, but do i focus my FULL attention towards it? so what type of arguement does that make?

the difference between smoking and drinking in public....it's gonna take years and years to feel the full effect of smoking. now getting drunk at the bar and driving home and crashing into a family can happen in an instance.


as for costing society, i am one of the many working class americans that pay for my medical insurance. so that point is mute to me.


each side has a valid point otherwise we still wouldnt be discussing this topic, to each their own.

[vitualis]

Who exactly is focussing their "FULL" attention towards banning smoking?

I agree that MORE attention should probably to turned towards things like drinking and driving but from a public health perspective, that hardly justifies condoning smoking.

@ NamPla: the difference between you and me is that I am a doctor and my interest is in public health and primary health care. YOU, being one in millions can do whatever you want and it is unlikely to change much in the general scheme of things. However, public health is about populations. If a few percent of people stop smoking, that equates to a big health improvement overall. The arguments people are using here against smoking in public places always focuses on themselves. THEY will be affected in some way.

The fact of the matter is, not only "THEY" will be affected by such a policy but MANY people. And that's the point. People do actually tend to smoke less when it is inconvenient for them to do so. For people who don't smoke yet or pick up smoking "socially", they are much less likely to do so if you can't smoke "socially" at a bar or pub. In addition, all this outcry in the short term will more likely than not dissipate in the future. There was the same outcry when smoking was banned in most workplaces/government buildings. It is now accepted.

Best regards.

[macleod]

I have been keeping tabs on this thread for awhile and it is interesting the way the smokers (unfortunately, I am still one, however, have cut down significantly) try to justify it. Stats this and stats that.

You'd have to be a moron not to realize that there is going to be "some" amount of damage that occurs as a result of smoking. True, you could live to be 110 (or more), you could also keel over tomorrow. The way the smokers carry on about this is shocking (the habit has taken hold). I can say this, because I too am a smoker. I have a soon to be 4 year old. I have a lot of responsibility to my family, both with me being there and also financially.

Lets say for a minute that all of the evidence is false. If you are a pack a day smoker, you are paying X a day to smoke. Think about that over a few years. That'd help a bit with college, retirement, church, whatever. It is a very expensive habit. I have never done illegal drugs, but I am guessing that cigs are close to the price of some drugs now (at least that is the way it feels). It should be something to consider, just from a financial point.

Now, back to reality...smoking does do stuff. Regardless of what we (the smokers) think and believe. (see first comment about being a moron).

We have all (myself included) justified smoking to ourselves. That has got to be what addiction is. When you are sitting there being all whacked out waiting for a smoke. I tried a go at cold turkey and had my friend keep an eye on me at work just to see if my mood changed. He said that my whole demeanor changed. I was fidgety, couldnt speak right/couldnt think straight, didnt joke as much, and I swear that I was almost having and out of body experience later in the day. Hmmm. an enjoyable thing or an addiction????

I realize what it is. Some of you folks will say that I am brainwashed. I am, by nicotine.

I am going to keep trying to quit until it works because I dont want to have to come home one day and have have to break the news to my wife and son. For the other smokers out there, quit this "choice" and "its my right" and all of that crap. Use your brains and think about what smoking is.....

[NamPla]

Use your brains and think about what smoking is.....

Smoking is cool! 8)