Still having issues with NTSC to PAL AVI

[bugmenot]

Before anyone says it, yes I've read pretty much every NTSC to PAL guide on the site, but I still can't get the result I'm after. I've got a 23.97 FPS AVI file which I'm trying to convert to PAL (25 FPS). The main problems that pop up are:
1) The animation is jumpy (very noticeable in panning scenes, this is my biggest problem)
2) Incredibly huge file sizes
3) Poor picture quality
I've tried to convert the 23.97 FPS to 25, which gives me smooth video, but I'm unable to get the audio to convert to the correct speed without it sounding high pitched or (after running it through Goldwave) wobblely. Recently, I've been using Ulead DVD workshop to convert my AVIs to PAL (by taking the MPEG file it creates after it's finished burning) and the video quality is excellent, but as mentioned above, panning scenes are jumpy (jerky isn't the word for it). I've used TMPGEnc a few times, but videos produced by it are often always jerky (not just in panning scenes). I remember making a VCD (that's VCD, not SVCD) using Nero5's VCD maker, which was able to convert a 23.97 source to PAL, that had reasonable picture quality, but more importantly, had smooth animation. I know it was PAL and not NTSC it made because it was able to play fine on a non-NTSC compatable TV. Could I somehow use Nero5 to convert my AVIs using this method, use the converted files and ignore the burnt CD? I'm trying to use the converted file in a DVD, so would said converted files be able to be used in a DVD?

[jimmalenko]

Could I somehow use Nero5 to convert my AVIs using this method, use the converted files and ignore the burnt CD? I'm trying to use the converted file in a DVD, so would said converted files be able to be used in a DVD?

An easy way to do it without wasting a CD is if Nero 5 can to output to ISO if you choose the image recorder instead of your burner as your burning device. Then you can use ISOBuster to extract the DAT file back to an MPEG, which you could then use as source for your DVD. I haven't got a copy of Nero 5 installed anywhere to confirm, but it sounds OK in theory.

[johns0]

Bugmenot,have you tried my guide here?.In goldwave you can also keep the sound pitch the same instead of it getting higher.

[mats.hogberg]

It's actually pretty simple:
First of all, most PAL equipment plays NTSC nicely, so conversion might not be necessary at all, but if:

• Extract AVI audio to wav.
  Patch AVI frame rate to 25 fps with AVIFrate.
  Make wav shorter using either Goldwave Timewarp function, or, I highly recommend, WavWorks.
  Encode 25 FPS AVI DVD spec m2v (video only) TMPGEnc, MainConcept are good at this.
  Encode wav from Goldwave/WavWorks to AC3 with ffmpeggui
  Author.

Done.

/Mats

[rhegedus]

Load the avi into virtual Dub:

Make a not of the exact length of the file and then extract the wav.

Now if you plan to make the video play at 25fps, it means that it will be bit shorter than the original (95.88% of the original: 23.07/25 etc). Use Goldwave to alter the duration of the wav file for the 25fps video accordingly.

Still with VirtualDub, on the video tab, change the frame rate to 25fps and re-save the video using the original compression settings and using the new wav file you have created as the audio source.

This should now give you a new video file that is 25 fps, but since a lot of avi's use audio compression as well, you may get skewed sound, in which case you will need to alter some of the audio settings in Virtual Dub when you add your new audio file.



Or, you could do as Matts has suggested and just encode to a 23.97fps mpeg since most dvd players will accept this without a problem

[bugmenot]

An easy way to do it without wasting a CD is if Nero 5 can to output to ISO if you choose the image recorder instead of your burner as your burning device. Then you can use ISOBuster to extract the DAT file back to an MPEG, which you could then use as source for your DVD. I haven't got a copy of Nero 5 installed anywhere to confirm, but it sounds OK in theory.

Ah, that sounds like what I want to do. I'll try that.

Bugmenot,have you tried my guide here?.In goldwave you can also keep the sound pitch the same instead of it getting higher.

Yeah, I've tried your guide, I can get the video looking nice, but getting the audio converted is where a hit a problem. Does anyone know how to use Goldwave's time warp option? I've tried just about everything in it, and I can get the voice sounding good, but background music is wobblely. Can anyone help with this? Or does someone know of a better way of doing it?

First of all, most PAL equipment plays NTSC nicely, so conversion might not be necessary at all

I want it in PAL so I can have the sharper picture qulitity and so old TVs can play it. Just now, I tried converting the same video that I used in that VCD I made in Nero5, this time using Ulead. The smoothness was horrible compared to the VCD. Isn't it funny that a VCD looks better than a DVD? :P

[mats.hogberg]

Isn't it funny that a VCD looks better than a DVD? :P

Not really - The best any conversion can aspire to, is to look as good as the source. In most cases, there will be a noticable loss in quality, even if you go from an inferior format to a (potentially) superior.
Or do you mean that you use the same source as when you did the VCD version, but the DVD looks worse?

/Mats

[bugmenot]

Yep, that was the idea of testing it. They have similar video quality (but the DVD is better) but the VCD is a hellva lot smoother.

[mats.hogberg]

OK, but have you tried my method? I've done it many times, and it works perfectly (for me at least):

• Extract AVI audio to wav.
  Patch AVI frame rate to 25 fps with AVIFrate.
  Make wav shorter using either Goldwave Timewarp function, or, I highly recommend, WavWorks.
  Encode 25 FPS AVI DVD spec m2v (video only) TMPGEnc, MainConcept are good at this.
  Encode wav from Goldwave/WavWorks to AC3 with ffmpeggui
  Author.

It's rather straight forward, even if it takes some time.

/Mats

[bugmenot]

As I've said above, it's the audio stretching part I'm having trouble with, Little help? I've also been able to make a nice VOB using WinAVI, does anyone know if I could split the video and audio as an MPEG2 and a format that will convert to AC3?

[mats.hogberg]

As I've said above, it's the audio stretching part I'm having trouble with, Little help?

Yes, WavWorks, as mentioned above. Tried that?

I've also been able to make a nice VOB using WinAVI, does anyone know if I could split the video and audio as an MPEG2 and a format that will convert to AC3?

ReJig can demux the video as mpeg, and audio as whatever format it's in, from one, or a series of, VOB(s).

/Mats

[bugmenot]

Yep, I tried WavWorks. Least, I attempted to use it. I've gone to the stretch/compress tab, entered an input and output file, set the framerate conversion, pressed "go!" and after a split second, it spits out a WAV file that can't even play. Something is really off here.

[mats.hogberg]

For sure. No probs on my machine. It's fast but not that fast - generally a minute for 1.5 hrs wav 23.976 to 25 fps
/mATS

[bugmenot]

That's what I think too, it's too fast. So fast in fact, it's not actually doing anything (hence the useless file it vomits). Nethertheless, I've given Sony SoundForge a go, it appears to have made a shorter file with the length of what a 25 FPS video would be, but I've often had files lie about their size. The audio also sounds perfect, so we'll wait and see. If it works, I'll be able to use a version of the video played at 25 FPS which gives me SMOOOOOTH animation. *crosses fingers*

[vhelp]

Just as another suggestion .. on an "extracter" ..

You could also use TMPG's MPEG Tools, and go into the De-muliplex
tab and import your .VOB (just type in *.vob - cause TMPG defaults to the
*.mpg; *.mpeg; *.m2p when listing those files that TMPG uses. It also opens
VOBs too :P ..and splits them, and spits out a bunch of other video/audio
file imports, such as those private_stream_1 ( 0x21 .. 0x84 and more.. )
where you can take out only the only channel/track you want. Anyways.

At least it's also free too.
Good luck,
-vhelp

[bugmenot]

Yeah, I knew about it's MPEG tools, but I didn't know it could also do VOBs OK, I've found that my Soundforge stretched version of the audio track does indeed match the video, so I can now use a 25 FPS version of the video!! W00t!! I'm going to use Ulead for the converting of my AVI to MPEG2, due to that fact it makes very sharp picture quality with the size I want my videos to be. Only thing is, it multiplexes the files (since it's converting a audio less video, I'm hoping it won't) but if it does, how does TMPGenc go for de-multiplexing videos? Is there any slight degradation in quality?

[vhelp]

@ bugmenot

I have never seen TMPG's - MPEG Tools - taint any of the many de-mux I
have performed on my MPEG-2 's.
.
All TMPG's de-mux does is separate the audio and video. And, if there is multiple
audios, you have the pleasure of chosing which one to incorporate into your
DVD project

Just to note..

There is a good reason why I prefer to use ifoEdit (besides its free) .. that being
that it does not taint or distort the Aspect Ratios when it Authors (merges the
audio/video) to a final VOB. I found that other DVD authoring apps caused
problems w/ my Aspect Ratios. (I don't know about other areas of issues)
But, for quick test projects, ifoEdit is a good as it gets when you don't want
any tainting. But, if you want menus and other things, than ifoEdit may not
be what you want (in the end)
But, I think that "DVD Author gui" (by Liquid217, and freeware) does menus and
other things now.. though I haven't tried it since my last time, maybe 9 months
ago. (the spelling may be off) Anyways.

I'm glad you have your issues worked out so far, and more luck to ya.
-vhelp

[bugmenot]

Well, changing the framerate and using SoundForge to correct the audio worked perfectly, the video looks great! But I've just had a curve ball thrown at me, I've now got a 29 FPS video, changing the frame rate to 25 really slows down the video, like it's running in slow-mo. Help!

[vhelp]

hmm.. I got timed out, and was logged off, during my posting. I guess
I took too long to respond back. And it made a new post.

Sorry.
-vhelp

[bugmenot]

I've discovered that VirtualDub can un-pulldown thingy a 29 FPS video to 23.97 FPS. This should allow me to as before, convert to 25 FPS and make make a nice looking PAL video. BUT! I've had a bit of trouble with the video quality of these un-pulled down NTSC videos, most common is lines appearing in motion scenes. Does anyone know anything more about VB? I've seen very few guides on this site using VD.

[vhelp]

That is the route I take in my IVTC method.. Virtualdub

IMO, this is the ultimate method vs. AVIsynth scripts. The only problem
I have with this method is the CODEC's that you have to use in order to
make a new .AVI file. Too many color space conversions. Anyways.

I don't know how to handle a PAL -to- NTSC (or versa) and I don't think
that vdub can do this. It's a straight-through process. I don't know
for sure. I've tried to convert PAL -to- NTSC in vdub once, but it left
nothing but Interlace. I left it alone from that point on.

In your case, perhaps AVIsynth would be your best approach.

-vhelp

[bugmenot]

No no, all I want to do is un-pull down a 29 FPS NTSC to create a 23.97 FPS NTSC. I've been able to get the frame smoothness correct, but changing various options gives varying degrees of picture quality. I'm just wondering if anyone else knows more about VD's Inverse Telecine option and can offer assistance.