JLWsales Epson R200 CIS Review

[Idle]

NOW MAY I HAVE 1 CENT ?

WHAT! -- a whole cent?

And after you've been such a bad boy?

But we might spring for a brownie point...

BTW, Macrovision, your solution is what I went for myself -- (except I didn't order the empty set, as the ink's far cheaper than I can buy it here) and for exactly the same reason.

After a good look at the cartridges with my (greasy old) maintenance engineer's hat on, the only place I'd put them is round, with a lid.

When the new set gets here (should be in the next few days) I'll look at what's involved in converting the OEM cartridges to work in the old CIS.

[macrovision]

Idle, Don't mod OEM carts! Seriously! The OEM carts have a springed valve booby trap in it! I tried to mod them already... That's how I know and to make matters worst I've read how to bypass it, However I'll rather spend $50 on carts made for CIS systems... I'll post a link tommorrow. My mod leaked through the sides of the unit because of the trap valve...I had ink all over the place but it was fun!

[Idle]

Thanks, Macrovision -- that makes me think a bit.

Are you sure it can't be done?

Did you ensure the cartridges were airtight before you filled them?

I'd think it would be essential to locate the vent and seal it first of all.

Because ink is a liquid, and liquids are virtually incompressible, it's a basic rule of fluid transfer that as any liguid is removed from a container the space it occupies must be replaced with something of equal volume.

In the case of the OEM cartridges this content would be replaced with air, so there must needs be a method for air to be drawn in as the ink is removed, otherwise either flow (and printing) will cease, the cartridge will implode or air will force its way in around the bottom seal with attendant bubbles and probably an air lock in the outlet.

Since we don't want any of these things to occur, the cartridge will have a vent of some kind above the fluid line -- in earlier devices this was a simple open ended labyrinthine tube, which had to be opened when the cartridge was installed.

I haven't as yet seen the internals of a spongeless OEM cartridge, but it won't be fundamentally different (might perhaps have a valve of some kind to prevent leakage in transit plus restrict air flow and create a more-or-less balanced internal pressure as the ink level drops -- thus there's no piece of tape to remove) but it will have an air entry point somewhere.

If it's a spring-loaded valve, it will open at a point below atmospheric pressure (this is what will open it) and allow air to flow in until internal pressure rises enough for the valve to close again.

This principle was used a lot in early internal combustion engines (I've owned a few) and is still found in compressors etc.

CIS systems operate with the cartridge under a small but constant vacuum kept up by the action of the delivery pump in the head (that's what maintains the flow) so the cartridge must be sealed and in fact form part of the supply tube, whilst the (still essential) air vent is transferred to the supply tank.

Although still fed by differential pressure, they're not a syphon in the true sense as they're not self-maintaining (nor should they be, for obvious reasons) -- the small vacuum required is raised by the action of the print head, thus when it's not operating the flow stops but the fluid column is (hopefully) maintained.

In a perfect world, with no chance of air entering the ink path, this sort of system could be kept flowing forever -- the clogged nozzles we all encounter prove, of course, that this isn't a perfect world and air does find its way in here and there.

I'll take my professorial hat (one of those pointed affairs with a round brim and stars all over it) off now and admit that this is all theory until I actually have an empty R series OEM cartridge on the workbench.

[macrovision]

Thanks Idle, It's nice to see that this forum has posting by people that take time to show experience as we'll as understanding of scientific facts... The OEM carts I tried to mod has a vent as you stated but it also has some sort of spring-loaded valve that possibly reacts to atmospheric pressure, I believe to insure it's not used for CFS purposes... I didn't break the internal plastic membrane that holds the ink... It's polyurathane, Flexable but easily broken... Anyway I sealed it very good but It leaked... I was doing it for the hell of trying because I plan to buy a build your own CFS kit from http://www.weink.com/ecom/catalog/econoflo_build_your_own_crs_for_epson_stylus_photo_r...00_3820708.htm and I will use my JLWSALES tanks with the CFS carts from the CFS kit... It costs $73.99 but I can afford it so I can try to become a rocket scientist like you :P LOL! 8) And BTW, I believe you know enough to mod OEM carts however just to look before you touch check this out! http://www.eddiem.com/photo/CIS/2100p/cis2100.htm

[poolenglish]

interesting sites macro, thx

[macrovision]

Of course your welcome Poolenglish! If anyone wants to know more than we learn here about what were dealing with, Look at this site... It's the best I've seen by far! http://www.marrutt.com/digital-ink-myths.php#a

[Idle]

Thanks for the links, Macro -- I'd not looked at the Marrutt one, but the article agrees broadly with what I've learned over some years of using Epson inkjets (when did the Epson Color come out? -- it must be well over a decade) plus a lot of it was discussed at great length on the (now defunct) Epson desktop list run by Mitch Leben.

CIS systems were a major topic of discussion there, as well, and the ones now being marketed seem to spring from ideas first mooted by members of that list.

I've got some quite respectable prints on the wall that the Epson Color made, and they're still perfectly fine provided the sun doesn't get to them.

I'd looked at Eddie M's site quite some time ago -- he's added a bit since.

I seem to recall him appearing on one of our local TV shows recently with his chainsaw mill, which works rather well.

I've been mulling over conversion methods for the ink system and it's occurred to me that one probably needn't use cartridges as such at all -- if you look at Epson's commercial-grade printers (3000 etc.), the ink supply is static.

The 3000 ink cartridges retain the ink in a plastic bladder that collapses from external air pressure as ink is drawn out -- think of squeezing a toothpaste tube: "look, Ma -- no bubbles!".

When you think about it, the cartridge is only there to hold the ink supply -- if the ink were fed straight to the head you wouldn't need one, and there's no valid reason the chips have to be attached to the cartridge either, you could just stick the auto-reset variety directly to the pickups in the carriage.

If there were no cartridge, you'd have all that space to build in a more reliable ink manifold, and you could route the tubes clear of the printer frame much easier.

It would also take a lot of the load off the carriage motor, which must cop a heap of stress from rapid reversals of the print carriage.

There are plenty of discarded Epsons about nowadays -- they're so cheap new that the lower range ones are mostly thrown away when something quite minor goes wrong.

I may just pick one up and have a play with it.

[spector]

Hey I have an ongoing problem with my JWSales CIS system.

Every time I go to use my R200 printer, the ink is drained out of the tubes. I have to run the headcleaner multiple times before all the tubes will appear filled (usually 2 or so will be completely empty). This wouldnt be that big a deal if I wasnt using a shitload of ink. I dont know if it is the headcleaner or something else that is leading to the headcleaning.

My containers are down 1/2 - 2/3 each and Ive hardly done 50 covers and cds. Im not sure if I have a leak or what that is causing this loss of ink and empty tubes. The weird thing is one of the tubes that is always empty is one of the highest inks. I have tried to use scotch tape to reseal the ink carts but that didnt work either.

Any suggestions would be great! So far this 120$ CIS system has been a waste.

[Idle]

If air is getting into your tubes, there's only one source -- and you're breathing it...

If the leak is in a tube or where it attaches, there should really be traces of ink at that point as well -- if all looks clean and tidy there then you should look around the carts.

If you do see traces of ink at any point, usually a little judiciously applied silicon sealant or hot-melt glue will fix it (clean the area well first, of course, and make sure it's dry.)

You probably have the same beige plastic carts that came with mine, which have only one inlet (where the tube attaches) and one outlet -- where the head feeder spike goes in.

That suggests to me that you have the same problem I found when I removed mine -- dodgy "O" rings, leaking into the printer body, which would also account for your very high ink consumption.

By design, these printers maintain a slight vacuum in the cartridges at all times, this is what keeps the ink from flowing out by gravity and also what makes the CIS systems work -- if air can get in, it will rise to the highest point (your tubes), the vacuum will disappear and leaks will occur.

I suspect that the construction of the JLWSales carts also has a bit to do with their propensity to leak -- they are just plain tanks with no surge baffles and the quite fast direction changes when printing at high speed will be putting excessive pressure on the already weak seal around the outlet tube.

The OEM and properly made after-market carts have the outlets shielded against this by a somewhat intricate internal flow system.

If you still have the OEM carts and they're not empty, I'd pull the CIS, clean up any ink spills you find and put them back in, then check your ink usage again.

FWIW, my JLWS system also used more ink than enough during the short time it worked.

I now have a replacement system but haven't had time to install it as yet, so most things that need printing are being done on the back room computer, which has my dead reliable old Color 900 on it, or printed on the even older Kyocera laser.

[macrovision]

Spector, I'm jealous of Idle.... Not only does Idle know what's happening but is also right. However, I had that problem during my short-lived jlwsales cis experience and if you don't see the tell-tale leaking then you need to seal the space between the rubber cap and the surrounding plastic....when it dries you will then have to re-prime the carts by turning them upside down and carefully inserting a syringe with-out a neddle on it(the syringe's found in ink re-fill kits) and pull the plunger upwards and let it fill with ink....you can put that ink back into the proper tank...Repeat this at least 3 times per cart...Remember BE Careful! LOL!(lots of luck)

[Denvers Dawgs]

I just installed my cis, when i start the printer it slowly moves to the end and then back to the beginning, then the 2 red lights constantly blink. What does that mean?

**UPDATE**

I got the cis to work. I have the R200. I had to remove the gray cover over the ink for it to run. Is that ok, not to have on ever again? when I had it on, I was unable to lock it down and I think that's what was causing the blinking red lights

[bidefordboy]

It's ok to remove the cover. Most people have to. It depend's on the placement of the clip that hold's the tubing to the cart. You could dismantle the cover & replace the black section. This would help to protect the chip pin's.

[Denvers Dawgs]

well shit. I keep getting the red lights, turned off, unplugged, waited redid everything and still won't work? Any ideas? Now when it gets all the way back to the right side, it makes a low sqealing sound?

[Mirot87]

the 2 blinking red lights is caused by the DVD tray being down when you turn it on. You have to have it closed when you turn it on, thats all.

[Denvers Dawgs]

well its closed and I even tried holding it in tight and they still blink. Also, there is an erie whistling sound when it gets back to the start position.

UPDATE 2
Ok got it up again. Seems that it the ink line was getting caught under it and it was also hitting the lines and my holder on the side making it stop. I just had to add a twist tie to hold the line higher and firmer than where I had it placed....all seems good now. Printed a test page and all colors look good. Thanks for all the help..

[kenowell]

Ok my 2 cents on the jlwsales cis had mine for 6 months and now its giving me problems,, one thing i an say about jlwsales is their response to emails and customer service is great,, i needed to replace brackets the first month and contaceted jlwsales and he sent more now i just contacted him told him 3 of my carts were acting up and he offered to upgrade me to the next generation jlwsales cis with ink for 60 or send me the three carts or a new next generation empy jlwsales cis for 9.90 i will def take the new cis

[Denvers Dawgs]

how can I contact jlwsales if I need support?

[Bodyslide]

You can goto the Ebay page and contact the seller.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZjlwsales

If you need an email when I get home from work, I'll look to see if I have his email address saved.

[macrovision]

Denver Dawgs, If you search this forum or the best CIS forum you'll find the proper routing technique... The two clips are suppose to connect and the tubing goes around them and is held in place by a smaller clip...using twisty ties shouldn't be neccessary and you should have never had that mishap with the proper routing. LOL!

[Denvers Dawgs]

It's all set now....thanks for the help. I modified it a bit to be able to shut lid and close tray.....all is fine in CIS world now.....

[Denvers Dawgs]

Argh......Ok I have my r200 set up like i'm supposed to, clips and stuff were they should be, but again my ink lines got caught under the cartridge and made a aweful grinding sound. It is almost like my lines are to heavy. when the cart goes all the way to the left I can see the ink lines compress and drop down to the bottom of the printer, then the cart goes over them sometimes. Why is it not working correctly. I have looked at several other setups and my placeholders are in the same spots as others

FINAL UPDATE I hope...haha

I think I've figured out my problem I had too much slack running into the printer itself.

Also, Using the SSC SERVICE UTITLITY for the r200 can you choose which colorheads to clean. My light blue is printing a spotted test print, but all others are fine. Is it possible to just clean the one color?

[dmagic1]

Also, Using the SSC SERVICE UTITLITY for the r200 can you choose which colorheads to clean. My light blue is printing a spotted test print, but all others are fine. Is it possible to just clean the one color?

From my own attempts I would say no.

[poolenglish]

well on my second printer (r200) i have ordered refillable carts with auto-reset chips installed. www.printforless.tk
$60 w/free shipping. The jwl sales is still working fine, but i cannot put all of my eggs in 1 basket.

[macrovision]

Poolenglish, Long time no speaky. BTW printforless.tk is associated with printonadime(FYI) My printonadime kit get into a fight with me at least once a week....I always win....Now she prints like new....I hate re-priming the carts so I modded the setup. I believe that somewhere along the line of refillig I may have got dust in the system so, the next time(usually a week) I have to reprime it I'm gonna take all ink out and flush the carts.tanks,and hoses! BTW it's been 3 months and It works like a charm. The only problem(of course)is the so-called 90% auto-reset chips....no-one has ever posted having a 90% level reset....even me and my system is supposed to have 90% reset chips.AUUUGGGH! Also I cover my printer when it's not in use. This is done because when ink dries it need air...the less air the longer it takes to dry....now I'm using a spare towel...soon I'll use heavy plastic. LOL! And refillables is what I wish I hadda bought first of all!

[jeff d]

There was now "ink on my hands"
But I was determined!

Cleans up with water well... FWIW if you get ink on plastic most of the time you can just wipe it up with a paper towel with no discoloring of the plastic. Other surfaces are a different story, not porous materials don't seem to get dyed.





I'm interested in this system and still have a few questions after reading most of the posts here...


1) What's the feeling about the pigmented ink on an R300? I saw not recommened for R200, but what about R300?

2) Are the pigmented and standard systems the same with different inks? If so can the inks be swapped? I realize a flush would be needed, but other than that what's the feeling?

3) I've read a lot of posts with folks talking about other sources for inks, was there ever a "best" choice for another ink source?

Thanks, and I'm eager to get my hands on one of these!

BTW, doesn't everyone has a hot glue gun?

[macrovision]

I think that the hot glue technique was a mistake...not needed with "REAL" CIS kits...we now know how to route the tubing. we can hot glue the ink off our hands? Anyway the pigment ink issue is so stupid....from what I understand you can use pigment ink in an R200/R300....technically there is no difference in the print-head design for all the "R" line printers...it's just that the R800(pigment ink carted) has 8 carts and the r200/r300 has 6 carts...they're all the same Piezo-electric print-head.

[jeff d]

Just noticed... new version 6 anyone check one of these out yet? Looks to be brand new as I can't see any sold yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1246&item=5206527559&rd=1

The refill method looks interesting.

[poolenglish]

Black,
Cyan,
Photo Cyan,
Magenta,
Photo Magenta,
and Yellow

sorry to sound dumb ......but whic of these colors correspond to the color dots.
I kno black is black and
yellow is yellow
but what are the other colors?
my r200 has dots with colors and i dont kno their names!

reason being the new carts are labeled
y=yellow
b=black
c=? is this dark blue?
pc=? is this light blue?
m=? is this dark pink?
pm=? is this light pink?

[bidefordboy]

Yes, you have them in the right order.

[poolenglish]

thx a ton bideford!

well i got the new refillable carts filled and in......but no prints. I have used scci program for initial charge. no lines on test page....nothing at all. any suggestions anyone?