Sticking up for Princos!

[NamPla]

Ha, I knew that would capture your attention.

Seriously, I have bought about 200 of these cheapies over the last few months, reason being, they are CHEAP AS and also, I run the burns through Nero Scan Disk and they come out all green. I had ONE defect, with some red in the scan, but I suspect that was because of mis-handling...(I was drunk). BUT IT WAS ONLY ONE AMONGST 200!!!

I have gone back to the earliest disks, run them through Scan Disk again, played them on my DVD player = FINE.

I am using the old old Pioneer A05 burner (what a workhorse!) with updated firmware...

OK, so I'm burning at 2x. But I'm OK with that, if the burn is solid. I had to change DVD Decrypter's setting to "2x" instead of "Max". If I left it at "Max" it would freak out & tell me errors etc...I'm wondering how many people out there leave their DVD Decrypter setting at "Max" and decide their media is rotten??? All the "coasters" I made were still fine when I re-burned at "2x"!!! I didn't waste a single disk!!! (OK, except ONE!)...

Just thought I'd throw this out, because my experience seems to go against the grain of the general attitude towards Princo here... I don't really understand it, when I'm getting such great results from this media!?

Comments?

[yoda313]

Hello,

It comes down to personal experience. I've only had a handful of problems with no name discs. I probably have been fortunate. But a lot of people have complained about cheapo discs. I guess it's buyer beware.

Kevin

[NamPla]

I guess that's true. It depends on your hardware, software, firmware, etc.

I'm just commenting (for the record) that I have absolutely no problem with these cheap Made-In-Taiwan-or-wherever media.

I have gone back 12 months to early burns & checked them = FINE. Of course, that's not to say in 24 or 48 months they won't be defective. But I don't think that'll happen, personally. How (physically) can that happen, if they're stored properly? Does the physical media "mutate" or "metamorphose" or something?

[yoda313]

Hello,

Does the physical media "mutate" or "metamorphose" or something?

Well there are reports of "DVD ROT". Though I imagine its more hype than real. Supposedly the glue (or other adhesive) that holds it together whithers over time. Its supposed to happen to all dvds not stored propery (or even if they are).

Again I haven't experienced this. I have 3 year old real dvds without problems. I've only had my dvd burner for just under a year and my personal copies aren't having problems.

Kevin

[macleod]

I had a bad batch of princos and I swore them off. I have found other cheaper dvd media that is better than the princo line. "An" issue with those princo's will be in X months/years when you throw the dvdr into a player. I am sure other media has had similair problems. I have just found other media that IMO (and it is my opinion) works better than princo. The supermediastore.com house brand stuff has been great and I can get 100 packs for in the .22-.25 range.

[trickyman]

In my experience princo = crap.
I used princos up until teh point i got a couple ob bad batches. And by 'bad batch' i mean about a 50% failure rate.
Now i use Prodisc. Quality cheep media. I haven't had one failure out of about 60 burns...

[steve2713]

I've only bought Princos once, in the form of OfficeMax Starlogic branded discs. I'm just starting to use PI/PO error tests on my discs, I'd been using CD Speed Transfer rate tests up until the past few days on all of my discs. I've only tested a couple of the Princos so far (burned about 8 months ago), but they have some of the BEST tests of any of my discs . On a disc sized 4350mb, it tested at 9.21 avg PI(max 46), 1.13 PIF (max 4), using CD Speed to test. On the other disc of size 4478mb (full disc), avg. 31.13(max 53) PI, avg. PIF 1.17(max 3), using CD Speed. The same disc with Kprobe: PI avg. 28.31, PIF avg. 0.64. I'm still very new to this type of test, but the only discs I've had test better than these Princos so far are Ritek +Rs and TTG01 -R discs, and actually the results of these Princos is very similar to these 2 other medias. So if these PI tests are any indication of quality, I'm very happy with the Princos I have.

[yoda313]

Hello,

Starlogic are Princo??? Then I've used them before without any problems.

Kevin

[steve2713]

Mine are anyway. That's what the media code says

[Alan69]

I have gone back to the earliest disks, run them through Scan Disk again, played them on my DVD player = FINE.

That tells you absolutely nothing other than it's ok right now. Only Kprobe on the Liteon drives will let you see how much margin there is. You've got absolutely no idea whether your discs are very good and likely to last 10 years or very bad and only a small percentage worse and they'll be unreadable.

Everything decays over time, only the rates are different. Treat them right, and your princos may read back fine 10 years from now. Don't and they may be dead in a year. Regardless, you're likely starting at the middle ground or worse, you have less room to screw up..

Some similarly cheap discs such as Prodisc have much better burns on most drives. Why use a disc that starts out halfway to failure, if you can get some that start out much further away from failure and have a lot more margin for problems before they have read errors?

That said some few drives may make great burns on the Princos, and some few do make lesser burns on the Prodiscs. Best to check a few of yours with Kproba and see how good the burns are, so you know what you're doing.

And realize from this that your estimation is wrong, because you don't yet know what the right tools to use are. You are NOT getting "GREAT" results, even though you think so now. You are only getting "not failed" results from Scandisk, that's all it can say. Only Kprobe can tell you if your results are "great" or only "crap, but still barely readable as a good disc and will fail tomorrow if you pee towards the North tonight". Scandisck does not check the low level, you are using a wrong tool to try and decide if your discs are good burns or not.

That said I have an A05 as well, and it does reasonably well with about any discs. But get Prodiscs instead and you could be reasonably sure your discs would have a much lower low level error count, and are much more likely to survive several years and still be readable.

Look up Kprobe in the threads and start reading until you understand the graphs and start understanding how bad some discs are when compared to others, even though they both read as good on simple tools. There is a REASON people say princos are pretty much crap, your understanding of what's going on at the low level just isn't enough yet to understand why your discs may pass Scandisk ok now but still not be 'great' burns.

Some people do have 'bad' burns right out of the gate with them. But even if your burns seem 'great' to you, they are likely much worse than you are realizing, and are more likely to go bad much sooner than what would happen with a little better discs.

Alan

[tompika]

4xPrincos are fine here, I burn them at 2x or 1x in a Pioneer106

[iooi]

Give them 6 months then come back and say they are OK......
Never had a bad burn...
I used a 105 to burn the pinco's i used when i didnt know any better. It was only after several months i discovered that the disks would no longer copy....

[ROBERT BLACK]

I've maybe 2-3 bad burns with about 60-70 Princos. I used to use them quite often. Out of the first discs I've burned 2 years ago, two went bad. the rest are fine as of 3 weeks ago. But those two were enough for me to change media(to prodisc,maxell,Tyo Yuden,sony) and store the Princos I have in better surroundings. Away from any moisture buildup. Storage DOES make a difference.

[Adder_78]

It's so nice when there is people that have 100% or 99.999999% success with these Princo's or other "low quality" brands. Maybe it's because those guys have DVD Player that has DVD-ROM drive inside? No, of course not. They claim everytime that they have tested every disc with more than 1000 DVD-players and the discs works perfectly, every single one of them.

I have burned most of the Princo products. There has been good discs and bad discs. There has been too many times those bad discs, so I wouldn't recommend that label to anyone. 8)

[Capmaster]

Hello,

Does the physical media "mutate" or "metamorphose" or something?

Well there are reports of "DVD ROT". Though I imagine its more hype than real. Supposedly the glue (or other adhesive) that holds it together whithers over time.

Almost correct.

It turns out that "DVD Rot" is more an issue with commercial pressed DVDs than burnables. It has to do with the reflective layer oxidizing:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=878017#878017

[NamPla]

There is a REASON people say princos are pretty much crap, your understanding of what's going on at the low level just isn't enough yet to understand why your discs may pass Scandisk ok now but still not be 'great' burns.

Thanks Alan, yes I'll definitely read up more about this. Ah it's continual learning for me!

Interesting comments all round, actually!

Cheers.

[888888]

It's not like Princo is the only cheap media! In fact Prodisc are only two cents more expensive on RIMA and Riteks only a dime more. There are more options like Gigastorage, Optodisc, Lead Data, and other cheap Taiwanese media.

In other words, not only is Princo competing with more expensive media but with CHEAPER media as well. Now that even Taiyo Yuden MIJ discs discs are below 75 cents, there is really no point, it's not like Princo could possibly be a bargain. When Prodisc costs the same, I wouldn't even consider Princo.

[AarontheRipper]

I believe that one of the big complaints with princo was that their discs were having problems 6 months or a year down the road. The first batch of dvds I bought were princos. All of them burned and played perfectly the first time. That was about a year ago and I have had to reburn several of them since because they wouldn't play correctly on my standalone any more. However, I bought some Ritek G03s at about the same time and haven't had to replace a single one of them. Fortunately my computer dvdrom could still read the discs.

[lordsmurf]

Princo has an enormous fail rate after you exceed 3.75GB. That has nothing to do with burners, players, firmware, phase of the moon, etc.

The discs are simply unreliable.

Kprobe scans are nifty, but overall worthless if used as the sole test on "quality". Same can be said about DVDInfo, Nero CD-DVD Speed, or "it plays in the player" test. You need to do a combination of things.

That "6 months later" thing is not the disc. That is one of those myth proliferators. More than anything, that's a statement about the quality of the reader laser interacting with the reflective surface. The cyanine-based dye used on Princo really sucks in this regard. Or it could simply be the laser on the reader is weaker now that one year previous. That does happen, quite often in fact. My Apex player is now a shelf to hold a VCR off the floor. It won't read anything anymore. It started with Princo, then commercials discs and TY media. Dead. Not the disc.

[Adder_78]

That has nothing to do with burners, players, firmware, phase of the moon, etc.

The player has a very big role. I had Pioneer DVR-3100 which could read very poor quality discs (even Princos) without any problem, you can just wonder why...

[lordsmurf]

No, it doesn't. Re-read what I put down.

The player only affects the player. If a media is bad, nothing can make it better.

[Adder_78]

No, it doesn't. Re-read what I put down.

The player only affects the player. If a media is bad, nothing can make it better.

Well the "better" word can be taken many different ways. Yes you are right it dosen't make the quality of those discs any better but do you think that user who has only one DVD Player that can read every single DVDR without any problem really cares? He/she will say obviously that Princos are great quality! For that person those discs are "better" because they are cheap and they still works just like Verbatim, TDK, TY etc...

[lordsmurf]

I still don't think you're getting it. If a disc is bad past 3.8GB, it's going to be bad. Period.

[Adder_78]

I still don't think you're getting it. If a disc is bad past 3.8GB, it's going to be bad. Period.

Define "bad" 8) maybe then you get my point

[lordsmurf]

Bad. Sectors of the disc are faulty. Nothing can be written to it. This is an error of the media, and no matter what burner/player/firmware/moonphase, nothing aside from an act of God can change it (and even then...!) .

If a disc will play on a player, it is most likely not bad (and a quick software test can generally confirm it). It may have a reflectivity that makes it a pain in the butt to use, but it is not bad. You tend to see this more on those light-colored cyanine-based dyes, and to some degree, some of the organics (like Ritek).

In fact, many people consider a disc "bad" if it does not play in a device. THIS IS AN INCORRECT ASSESSMENT! This is more often a statement about reflectivity, lasers weakening, or something is dirty (like a laser lens of the disc itself). Hence you get complaints of "my disc died" which would more appropriately be "the player won't read the disc" because more often, it's the fault of the reader device. The only way to find a truly "bad" disc is though using a combo of proven methods on good hardware (though many clueless people insist they have "the best" readers, so it becomes even harder to permeate their thick membrane).

Whatever you're saying does not fit into either of these situations, and these are the ONLY two situations I can think of, in terms of "bad" media.

The only way I can find somebody say "Princo is great" is when they do not consistently burn to the outer rim of the disc, and most likely use a very small volume of media. For some of these people, 100 discs lasts months, so they don't know any better. But a spindle later, they get a shock. I've even found MANY, MANY cases where people thought "homemade" discs "just did that" and considered DVD-R a poor format. Some have gone on to buy "the better format DVD+R", but this time, actually spend a few bucks more for some RICOHJPN and are still captive to their own cluelessness.

On a final note, those Princo 4x generally do much better at 2x. Most 4x media was this way. A higher rated media has a better wobble groove. In most instances, especially in the "near the end" errors, wobble is the problem. A higher wobble on a slower burn gives a better margin of error, and in fact, can be flawless burns.

[Adder_78]

Bad. Sectors of the disc are faulty. Nothing can be written to it. This is an error of the media, and no matter what burner/player/firmware/moonphase, nothing aside from an act of God can change it (and even then...!) .

But most of the Princos can be burn full and can be read by DVD-ROM/DVDRW drive (depends on hardware though). That's not the actual problem with Princos...

In fact, many people consider a disc "bad" if it does not play in a device. THIS IS AN INCORRECT ASSESSMENT! This is more often a statement about reflectivity, lasers weakening, or something is dirty (like a laser lens of the disc itself).

Well I think the purpose of DVD media is to play in a device, dont you think? (don't take that comment too seriously 8) ). I don't believe those "lasers weakening", "something is dirty" etc stuff. That's too rare problem to blaim. I have tested many media in new players and results has been more or less same when compared to used models. Maybe some players can suffer somekind of "lasers weakening" problem that may be related to some other components than to the actually laser IC. But I don't think it's very common or so dramatic problem that it could explain the problems with some few brands or just for a few discs. The problem is in the media most of the time. DVD media is not that simple to manufacture, DL media is even harder.

I think the media is bad when you get mixed results from users. Most of the time guys that are saying the crap media is good are watching those discs with computer or with DVD Player that has DVD-ROM/DVDRW drive inside... Those can read bad media without any problems. And those who are saying that media is crap has "normal" DVD Player.

The quality can't be measured perfectly with any software or hardware that we customers could get on our hands. The best method is to read other comments in forums and web sites etc. If the results are mixed then it's a bad disc if all results are good then it should be ok (maybe ).

[lordsmurf]

I don't believe those "lasers weakening", "something is dirty" etc stuff. That's too rare problem to blaim.

This is very common.

Microsoft XBOX is one of the few units I can think of right away. The factory DVD-ROM units inside are not real good. They tend to die. You see a lot of this with Apex units too. There are a lot of DVD-ROM and DVD players that just up and die because they're not very good. Hitachi is one such brand of ROM unit. Mintek, Sony and Emerson DVD-Video players have some pretty poor stock drives (though Sony has gotten a little better in time).

Optical hardware, as anybody that owns a digital camera would know (CCD/CMOS), is a magnet for dirt and dust. They can also form a slime sometimes, but that largely depends on the environment. I you live in a smoking household, pretty much kiss all those things goodbye for an early death.

Check the forums. Check many forums. It's amazing how a cotton swab and a drop of alcohol can "fix" a "bad" unit. It's just dirt. Dust. Etc.

with DVD Player that has DVD-ROM/DVDRW drive inside

This doesn't even make any sense. All DVD players have a DVD-ROM inside. Whether or not it uses standard IDE connections or has a PC housing is really the only thing to debate, and neither of those thing affects readability. That's all cosmetic.

The quality can't be measured perfectly with any software or hardware that we customers could get on our hands

This doesn't make any sense either. Things like kprobe are developer-made utilities that developers/engineers use. It's not a "customer" thing. That's more along the lines of crap like DVDXRepair and whatnot.

The best method is to read other comments in forums and web sites etc. .

Absolutely not. That is the "newbie" way of doing things. For those that do not know any better. The best way is to do your own research, not rely on hearsay. Forums are only a good place to start. Even guides are just "guides" ... they're intended to HELP YOU on your own path, not to hold your hand, not to make you a lemming. User reviews are generally the most worthless literature on the planet. Do you go to the movies SOLELY based off the opinions of Ebert & Roper? Probably not. So why is this any different? Learn the facts (I just gave an incredible amount of information in this thread), and then test things to form your own opinions. Just be sure to be thorough, and to be credible.

[lordsmurf]

<double post>

[Adder_78]

This doesn't even make any sense. All DVD players have a DVD-ROM inside.

Not as powerfull lasers (fast -> more power) as they are in DVD-ROM drives that we are using in computers. That is for lowering the noise effect etc...

This doesn't make any sense either. Things like kprobe are developer-made utilities that developers/engineers use. It's not a "customer" thing. That's more along the lines of crap like DVDXRepair and whatnot.

That is "software" test. It would not be perfect test for finding out quality of DVD media. You would need clean room enviroment and special hardware etc to make a good test results.

The best way is to do your own research, not rely on hearsay

Wrong. You can't do your own research before you buy it and you can't cover big quantities of that media so you could be just lucky to have good patch of those discs and you could have another patch for bad media. Too risky. The smart way is to read forums etc and see what other people have said about those discs.

[Adder_78]

This is very common.

Microsoft XBOX is one of the few units I can think of right away. The factory DVD-ROM units inside are not real good. They tend to die. You see a lot of this with Apex units too. There are a lot of DVD-ROM and DVD players that just up and die because they're not very good. Hitachi is one such brand of ROM unit. Mintek, Sony and Emerson DVD-Video players have some pretty poor stock drives (though Sony has gotten a little better in time).

Optical hardware, as anybody that owns a digital camera would know (CCD/CMOS), is a magnet for dirt and dust. They can also form a slime sometimes, but that largely depends on the environment. I you live in a smoking household, pretty much kiss all those things goodbye for an early death.

Check the forums. Check many forums. It's amazing how a cotton swab and a drop of alcohol can "fix" a "bad" unit. It's just dirt. Dust. Etc.

It's strange because that effect is not popular here in Finland. Maybe we have better conditions here (more alcohol in blood or something). I have never, ever, had any problems with dirt in DVD players. Neither my friends have any problems related to dirt. I just don''t understand how people could get those players die. I don't believe that the problem is dust or dirt in the lins. If other media plays everytime ok and the "bad" disc wont play, then I just could not believe that little bit alcohol would help (well it could, but not in the Player)... :P