Hardware Video Processors and Filters

[DVWannaB]

gshelley61,

where did you purcahse your Studio 1 proc amp? Couldnt find it anywhere? Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

www.signvideo.com
They now own STUDIO 1 products.
Or used off eBay.

[gshelley61]

eBay

Used ones are listed there from time to time.

They can be purchased brand new from SignVideo (they are selling them direct now... when the units were labeled "Studio 1 Productions" they were marketed by another company).

http://www.signvideo.com/single_dual_proc-amp_video-processor.htm

[DVWannaB]

ok thanks, now it all makes sense.

[CaZeek]

Hello,
I just picked up a Vidicraft AVP-100 off of eBay for $20. Is the Proc Amp in this unit any less effective than the Vidicraft Proc Amp alone? Also, it supposedly has audio noise reduction capabilities.. is this actually effective or should I not even bother to run my audio through it? Lastly, I have the Detailer III.. would it be better to just take that out of the chain and use the detailing/enhancing of the "Detailer II" that is built in to minmize the amout of devices the signal is running through?

I know this is all subjective, but just looking for some other subjective opinions from those that have more experience than I do

[lordsmurf]

My observance is the AVP-100 is a mix of proc amp and detailer, but not a full version of each. A cheaper alternative to two units.

[piano632]

So, how much does a slightly used (2 days) SignVideo DR-1000 sell for? I tried one and unfortunately for me it seems to do more damage than good with my tapes.

I know they have a 30-day money-back guarantee, but I'm ashamed to send this thing back after they sent it overnight UPS for no extra charge (there was a credit card mixup and shipment was delayed a week).

Perhaps someone on this board is looking for one?


I also have a Prime Image TBC with composite/s-video that needs repair. I hope it's something minor, but the picture suddenly became badly distorted with faces looking flourescent orange. Where does one go to get these repaired? I'd probably put it up for sale once I got it repaired since I don't really need it.

[lordsmurf]

So, how much does a slightly used (2 days) SignVideo DR-1000 sell for? I tried one and unfortunately for me it seems to do more damage than good with my tapes.

I don't see how. It's a sharpening device. It's only meant for slight adjustments. Did you use it correctly? Have to ask.

[piano632]

It's a sharpening device. It's only meant for slight adjustments.

If your source is good, a significant amount of sharpening and detail can usually be applied before excessive grain, right edge ghosting or an unnatural appearance becomes a problem.

Seems to be a contradiction between these 2 posts. If it's only meant for "slight" sharpening then how is it any better than any other processor? Maybe I'm expecting too much. On a normal-res TV, my tapes look great without any processing. On a computer monitor, they look like they could use some sharpening. Don't know what they're gonna look like on a high-res TV since I don't have one. Anyway, I can't get any real improvement with the DR-1000 (at least with the tapes I've tried so far - which are all 1st generation SuperBeta). The only sharpening I could get was at the expense of more grain in the background. Maybe my tapes are as good as they're gonna get (which is not bad, but somehow I thought I could boost up the sharpness closer to DVD resolution). Please tell me if I'm living in a dream world.

[lordsmurf]

To get significant improvement, you only need to SLIGHTLY turn the knobs. You don't want to crank them 180 degrees. That would ruin the video and fill it with noise.

The DR-1000 has been able to significantly sharpen VHS sources, even if counterbalanced by the JVC "SOFT" filter that are optional on the S-VHS VCRS.

Are you one of these people with a 70" tv screen? If so, you'll never make VHS into "DVD quality" sharpness.

[piano632]

I don't use regular VHS. 70% of my tapes are SuperBeta, 30% are S-VHS.

I didn't turn the knob 180 degrees; even at ¼-turn it shows added noise around graphics and in the background. Since most of my tapes were made off cable TV, I suppose the fault could be that there's some low-level noise on the tapes that isn't very noticeable until you try to turn up the sharpness. Ultimately my Beta tapes transfer cleaner-looking going straight from VCR to JVC recorder via a high-end s-video cable. I will have to try some S-VHS tapes to see if they are any different.

I guess I am being really picky, since most people would be more than happy with what I got already. I don't have a 70" TV, but on a 20" set it looks great.

[lordsmurf]

That's very possible, noise in the signal that you only see when you try to adjust the sharpness. I fix that by using SOFT on the JVC player filters, and then sharpening what's left using the DR-1000.

[CaZeek]

That's my method too, although I'm using the much less expensive Vidicraft Detailer III . You can also get rid of most of the analog noise by running through a temporal cleaning filter in VDub, but I don't like to use this excessively, as the higher settings will cause the "ghosting" affect. So the JVC Soft -> Detailer -> Temporal Cleaner (if neccessary) has pretty much removed all of the analog noise that I've encountered, while still winding up with a sharper image image in the end.

[lordsmurf]

It should also be noted this method works better on cartoons and video that is not cluster-packed full of minute details (like people's skin). It may make people look "plastic" sometimes, depending on source quality and lighting in the image.

[fmctm1sw]

gshelly61, I'm looking into purchasing one of the professional TBC/proc amps you mentioend in the first post here. My question is which of them require an external sync generator? Or all of them pretty much set by themselves?

[gshelley61]

gshelly61, I'm looking into purchasing one of the professional TBC/proc amps you mentioend in the first post here. My question is which of them require an external sync generator? Or all of them pretty much set by themselves?

It is sometimes hard to tell, but if a TBC does not have a REF IN or BURST IN connection at all, you can probably safely assume it does not require external sync to operate. Consumer and prosumer units, even if they have genlock, almost never require external sync. Professional units (especially the older ones) sometimes do. The Feral A4:2:2 I have does not, and many of the more recent pro units with standard consumer type 4-pin s-video inputs and outputs don't require external sync. The best thing to do is find out as much as you can about the unit you are interested in, make sure you determine what type of connections it has (and doesn't have), and if you are still unsure... look for something else.

[fmctm1sw]

gshelly61, I'm looking into purchasing one of the professional TBC/proc amps you mentioend in the first post here. My question is which of them require an external sync generator? Or all of them pretty much set by themselves?

It is sometimes hard to tell, but if a TBC does not have a REF IN or BURST IN connection at all, you can probably safely assume it does not require external sync to operate. Consumer and prosumer units, even if they have genlock, almost never require external sync. Professional units (especially the older ones) sometimes do. The Feral A4:2:2 I have does not, and many of the more recent pro units with standard consumer type 4-pin s-video inputs and outputs don't require external sync. The best thing to do is find out as much as you can about the unit you are interested in, make sure you determine what type of connections it has (and doesn't have), and if you are still unsure... look for something else.

Thanks. I ended up going with a Prime Image TBC/Freeze II off ebay. It seemed to specifically mention synchcronization as well. I think I'll be OK. I'm very interested in what kind of difference the proc amp is going to make too.

[gshelley61]

I think you'll be fine with that Prime Image unit. They have a great reputation. It is a full frame TBC and synchronizer. Let us know how you like it...

[vhelp]

@ gshelley61

I've ben doing some reading in a few topics here so far.
In my coming across TBS notes, I also saw reference to Line-TBC
(or Correctors) and I was wonder if they make stand-alone units for
these types of tools.
.
I may be refering to them incorrectly, and please feel free to
correct me on this.

One of the things that got me thinking on this pathway, is the different
results people get with the VCRs that include TBC's built-in to them.
I've read in some responses, that they are not full TBC, but Line-TBC
or something in the area. I just want to be corrected if need be, and
inlighted to this other side of the TBC coin if it exists.

Thanks for any direction on this.

-vhelp 3027

[lordsmurf]

The problem with this question is your results are not *JUST* because of the TBC, but because the VCR has integrated TBC and DNR into the same function. It's not longer *JUST* a TBC you're talking about, in a VCR.

[gshelley61]

Yes, the so-called JVC "DigiPure Technology" processor is a combination scan line (not full frame) time base corrector and video noise reduction filter. A line TBC can do a good job of correcting time base errors, which manifest themselves as image problems like slightly crooked vertical lines, etc. A line TBC will not defeat copy protection signals (or "false" MV errors, either), and does not provide frame synchronization.

Modern standalone TBC's correct time base errors and synchronize entire frames, not just a line or two at a time. These "full frame" TBC's completely eliminate all copy protection and in most cases will prevent dropped frames from occuring (unless a tape is really, really bad). They are sometimes referred to as TBC/Frame Synchronizers, TBC/Framestores, or Super TBC's. Professional units will usually have frame/field freeze and strobe functions. Pro units generally have proc amp functions, too.

The reason certain high end JVC S-VHS VCR's are so well liked for capturing is the playback image quality is really excellent. The built in line TBC/DNR processor is very effective at stabilizing and cleaning up VHS.

[zorankarapancev]

My question is which of them require an external sync generator? Or all of them pretty much set by themselves?

If you have TBC or frame synchronizer with REF or BURST IN, use the line-video out from the video player as a reference output (assuming that s-video is used for the picture processing). Usually it works without problems (this signal will be recognized as “non-standard reference”).

[gshelley61]

Hey, I've just been checking out another professional full frame TBC that is definitely suitable for video hobby projects... the I.DEN IVT-7

The I.DEN IVT-7 that I have been testing has both composite and s-video inputs and outputs. It has 8 bit 4:2:2 sampling, full proc amp controls, DOC, frame and field freeze, and a number of other adjustments typical of pro TBC's. Image quality is outstanding through the s-video input and output... one of the best units I've seen for PQ. Once the setup, luma and chroma are tweaked, it is pretty difficult to tell the difference between the processed image and the source. It is that transparent. The composite video throughput looks very good, but does have a slightly softer picture than the source. Don't use the internal Y/C splitting (comb) filter by feeding it a composite signal then using the s-video output, though. Too many artifacts. The unit does not appear to have any obvious noise reduction effects (other than perhaps chroma noise reduction) or edge enhancement adjustments built in like the Feral A4:2:2 I have does.

Anyway, if you come across one of these, they are worth checking out.

[nixie]

Hi gang.

Does anyone know of a stand-alone unit that cleans up color comparable to the JVC S-VHS DigiPure system?

I have a JVC S-VHS with DigiPure and I'm impressed with it. It takes ruddy colors from old VHS tapes and makes them silky smooth. I wish I had a stand-alone unit that had this type of digital noise reduction that I could use for other sources, such as my Beta tapes.


Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

Sadly, no. However, record the Beta to S-VHS and then play the S-VHS. That often works nearly as good.

[nixie]

Sadly, no. However, record the Beta to S-VHS and then play the S-VHS. That often works nearly as good.

Yep, that's what I've been doing for some of my Beta tapes. It takes twice as long, but it works almost as good.

The JVC isn't perfect either. Sometimes it plays jittery on particular VHS tapes when the TBC/DNR is on. It apparently doesn't allow you to turn off the TBC while leaving the DNR on. It would be great if I had an external DNR box as good as DigiPure.

[piano632]

I've been trying to clean up my Beta tapes for a couple years now. There are only 2 methods that work that I've found:

1. record to a JVC DVD recorder
2. capture card & VirtualDub with Chroma Noise Reduction filter

Both of these methods actually work very well, just that #2 is much more time-consuming.

[gshelley61]

Here's a hardware processor that has variable noise reduction... it is composite video only. I have no idea if it works, though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3873104348&indexURL=1&photoDisplayT...ayphotohosting

[Mysticav]

gshelley61 and members:

I want to invest in video equip. So, after reading some posts, I thing this can be a good point to start:

HARDWARE

1.-JVC S-VHS/DVD-R SR-MV30U (S-VCR/DVD-R COMBO)
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/tech_desc.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101458&itempath=&feature_id=02

2.-Vidicraft Detailer III
(Where can I buy it ? is it really neccesary?)

3.-SignVideo Proc Amp PA-100 or PA-200
http://signvideo.com/single_dual_proc-amp_video-processor.htm

In case of PC edition:

4.-Canopus ADVC Model ADVC110
http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-58626189988044/544081.html

or

4.- A miniDV camcorder with 'analog pass through' feature, as recommended here:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/tech_desc.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101458&itempath=&feature_id=02

So, what camcorder do you recommend me ? less than 500 dlls.

5.- A 8mm to Digital converter. I don't want to buy a 8mm camcorder just to play and send the A/V to my PC or DVD RECORDER. Is there a 8mm player with Composite or Digital output ?

6.- A VHS-C to VHS cassette converter. No comments. Very common.

PC or DVD RECORDER ?

gshelley61, you mention that its far better to go directly to a DVD recorder instead of a PC. But, in case of edition, I just found not a good idea to rip the DVD recorded disc, edit, then burn it back with Nero, TMPGEnc, etc. So, I wonder what do you do if you want to edit your videos ?

ABOUT EDITION

I included the step 4 (read above), in case I need to edit the video, i'm thinking to send the video (via Firewire) to PC, as uncompressed AVI). use Adobe premiere pro to capture, edit, export to MPEG-2, auth. with Adobe Encore, and burn.

So, Kinldly, comment this post, give me some hardware and software recommendations.

Any reply is most welcome.

[gshelley61]

That JVC pro line combo S-VHS / DVD recorder seems like a great idea... but be careful. Combo units tend to have compromises in design, and often have reliability issues. Plus, when one side of the unit breaks, it's not easy or inexpensive to repair. I'd suggest that you buy separate units.

The best consumer level S-VHS machine for VHS playback ever built was probably the JVC HR-S9600U. All the 9000 series JVC S-VHS machines do a great job, though. If you want a new one, the HR-S9911U is the current model. Some have reported using the JVC D-VHS (high definition digital) VCR's as excellent VHS playback machines... they have the same 4MB TBC/DNR circuit as the 9000 series S-VHS units do. As far as DVD recorders go... well, you can tell from the threads on this forum that there are lots of opinions about that. I really like the JVC DR-M10, but some are concerned about the "loading" issue some units have. New improved models from all the makers are due out in a couple of months. You might want to look at the type that has a built in hard drive, too.

The SignVideo gear is great. I'd get their DR-1000 Image Enhancer over the Vidicraft Detailer III. The Detailer III is from the mid-80's (composite video inputs and outputs only) and would be available used on eBay. It is a great unit for laserdisc transfers because LD's are a composite video source. If you are not going to be dealing with laserdiscs and are mainly going to use s-video sources in your work, the DR-1000 is better (and can be purchased new).

At this point, I prefer to capture directly to DVD compliant MPEG2 with my DVD recorder rather than using the very time consuming (and mostly disappointing) computer method. You can do simple frame accurate editing of DVD-RW/+RW/-RAM recordings (that's cutting and joining only, no fancy transitions or added graphics, music, narration, etc.) without re-encoding the files (losing any quality) with software like Womble MPEG-VCR and MPEG Video Wizard. Then re-author a finished DVD-R/+R with something like TMPGEnc DVD Author.

I have not used a Canopus DV converter, so I can't comment on that. I have tried DV pass-through conversion with two different camcorders... a Canon Optura Pi MiniDV, and a Sony TRV-330 Digital8. I wasn't happy with the results. I play back my old 8mm home videotapes with the Sony Digital8 camcorder, which works really great. I prefer using the s-video out rather than the converted DV stream, though. Except for the entry-level models, all Sony Digital8 camcorders play back 8mm and Hi8 tapes, which is a great feature. Hi8 camcorders and VCR's will play back 8mm tapes, and also have s-video output.

Sony Vegas + DVD Architect pro level (4.0, 5.0) editing and authoring software gets high praise from those working with MPEG2 source video.