DVD for TV and Computers

[sdsumike619]

Not quite sure how to ask this question, but here goes:

I'm making music instruction DVDs once again. So I shoot the video, drop it into the computer, open it up on a timeline in Vegas. And I have it being shown on my external monitor (a properly calibrated TV)

Now I'm looking at the TV, everything looks great, color, brightness, everything....and I"m looking at the preview window in Vegas on my COMPUTER monitor, and it's soooooo much darker.

If I make the necessary adjustments to make it look good on a computer monitor, then it gets waayy to bright and washed out on the Television screen....

What is the fix here? Customers buy DVDs for playback on both televisions and on their computers

[BJ_M]

this is a very common problem .. ntsc tv's are what is called set to IRE7.5 and pcs are IRE 0

what this means is that rgb values are 0- 255 but on a ntsc tv , black is 16 and white is 235

but on a pc , black is 0 and white is 255



a lot of dvd's i do for marketing purposes are going to be used on both and also on pal systems and in japan (all 0IRE) ..

so i use a lenient set up (this is in the vegas broadcast Level filter) .

also I use the scopes all the time and adjust everything keeping my eye on the scope -- then like adding a sharpen filter will change these values.

compound the problem is that different dvd players will output different levels -- yes , the stupid players will screw up your settings ..

and rear screen tv's and hdtv monitors will use a different level ..

[sdsumike619]

sorry about the double post,,, figured I posted in the wrong category....So there's basically no solution? When it looks perfect on the TV, it's way dark on the computer. When it looks perfect on the computer, it's way too bright on the TV. Yet when I buy a movie and play it on the TV and on the computer, it's the opposite! It's much brighter on the computer monitor than it is on my television,,, what's going on???

[BJ_M]

how are you outputting to your ntsc monitor ? with firewire or other means ?

[xavierdemon]

Okay I was wrong But you can't deny setting up your monitor is important even though this has nothig to do with the problem sdsumike619 was having. Maybe I should take the time and actually read and absurb the posts first

[sdsumike619]

Using Vegas 5.0's external monitor preview, connected the firewire to my card, other end connected to my camera. Then I use an S-video cable to go from my camera to an RF modulator which is then connected via coax to the TV

[lordsmurf]

This is why having a good tv and good DVD player is important. Many thees days have options to alter the light/dark values (often presets called "Movie" and "Theatre" and whatnot)

[BJ_M]

a lot of steps there -- you should tape something with another camera and bring it back in and compare levels ..

cant you somehow skip the rf modulator ?

[BJ_M]

in other words i split the difference and make sure blacks look black on a pc and not grayish , but not to dark on a TV ..

this is about 8 on black and 235 on high on the vegas scope ..

using the 'levels' filter (not the same as broadcast level) is the adjustment you would be doing on the output (not brightness or gamma or contrast (well not as much) ..

to much one way or the other and you will have cored your blacks or look to contrasty ...

[sdsumike619]

no, I'm using a DVC80 for the filming and I use my little canon zr-20 for capturing the tape to the computer as well as using it as the connector between the computer and the TV. I need the RF Modulator, because this TV only has one coax input, no rca connections on it... The RF modulator isn't causing any problems though,, i had this problem with another TV when I didn't need the rf modulator...

Going back to tv calibration, I still don't know if it is correct really or not. I understand how to set the brightness by looking at the pluge bars ,, but when it comes to the color and contrast, I don't get what to do. I obtained this Rosco #80 blue filter as I read in a tutorial on the web, but it does'nt seem to help me at all..

[sdsumike619]

that's another thing I don't have a clue how to use the scopes in Vegas...I bought the book by Douglas Spotted Eagle, but ti doesn't go into any detail really about the video scopes... When i drop the raw footage into the computer, the blacks are already as black as can be on the computer monitor, but on the TV, the blacks are more washed out grey looking,, not pure black

[sdsumike619]

this is the tutorial i was referring to:

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~wvg/color%20bar.htm

[sdsumike619]

haha, did my topic die on the table?

[BJ_M]

that looks like a good tutorial ... what part did you have trouble with ?

there are many such set guides on the net .. just make sure if you are setting up a broadcast monitor or a pc monitor as of course -- they are not the same ..

[sdsumike619]

the part about using the blue filter...when i put the blue filter, , it doesn't look anything like his picture he shows there on the left with the blue and black bars.....

[vhelp]

TGIF everyone.

@ sdsumike619,

Actually, I think that the problem is really *you* and not your
customers

I mean, you are biased in what you have discovered.. that being
that the color level seems to be off, depending on what your perspective
is at the time you are viewing the finaly product (or AVI) or whatever

I have a suggestion. As long as you don't *tell* them that you will see a
difference, all will be well. Because you are missing something here.
That being, that when you finally encode the source, and play it inside your
stand-alone DVD player, you'll see same (or true) output quality level.

Another issue is *what* software player did you use. Going by Vegas might
not be a good "reference" or "guage" to base by (not to mention, demostrate
to your customers as a preview) Lots of software display the final output
differenctly. Some use Directshow, while others use Overlay.., and some
even use Overlay as if watching the same results on TV (no Interlace, even
when the source IS interlace (ie, DV cam via S-Video to your Cards
video in - - if your card has a video-in port, like most capture cards do)

Another altering issue could be the Graphics card and it's unique'ness. The
reason I include this "non-sense" is because of my experience w/ my card.
An ATI Rage Fury Pro 32MB (AGP) This card has the Rage Thearter chip (not
the new "Thearter 200" chipset, which might have changed, as well as it's
features with it's Overlay output features) I know.. lots of confusing things
flying around here But thats how I felt too, when I switch from my Rage Fury
Pro card to an nVidia card, which gave more color information. It's my OP
that this extra color might be what's causing certaine odd experiences. I
was having these, and missed my Rage Fury Pro's features.. and went back to
it (found a replace Rage Fury Pro card on EBAY) and it's ben heavy all over
again for me
.
I don't like these newer cards, because they offer too much. Sometimes for
the worse. ATI 's Rage Thearter chip is awsome (the older one, that I have)
and I won't go back to these newer cards (for my projects and things, that is)

What I'm trying to say here (above) is that when I viewed ( say for instance,
the movie "Matrix Revolution" ) inside my nVidia card and using PowerDVD 3.0
I got very clean and fluid color, but very dark. It was rich, but not what
I was accustom to. I kept remembering how my older graphics cards output
quality was in my Rage Fury Pro, and I couldn't get over the difference. For
some, that might be beneficial in their perspective, but for me, it just did
not look right. Something seemed wrong. I remembered how my first "Matrix"
movie looked inside my PowerDVD 3.0 window inside my Rage Fury Pro 's card,
and when I popped that same movie inside nVidia card, it did not look the
same
After finding a replace ATI Rage Fury Pro card, and played this same "Matrix"
movie, it was heavy again. I was back to seeing what I was accustom to.
.
Its my belief that the Rage Thearter chip (the older one I have) is the one
that produces the *same* output quality, as you would see on your TV set,
but only when played inside an software player that uses the Rage Thearter
chips features properly. PowerDVD 3.0 was the one I settled with because
in my OP, it was duplicating what I would see on TV.. just what I wanted..
and the reason I went "frantic" searching for this Rage Fury Pro card.
.
Its my OP, that the new graphics card these days, are "smoothing" out the
output quality, while the Rage Thearter chip does not, and produces sharper
looking output, as well as WYSIWYG quality-tv-like output. Well.., I did
say that it was *my* OP

So, given the above, I would say that this *might* have something to do
with your output results.. and is probably nothing you can do about it, since
going back, would probably not be your desired step. It was (is) for me, though..
because it works for me :P

Cheers, and good luck.
-vhelp

[BJ_M]

what do you see ? that picture he has is kinda hard to make out, but you would send color bars to the monitor, and then view the image through the blue filter while adjusting the hue control to create three similar blue bars on the screen.

[sdsumike619]

yeah so pretty much f*ck it is what I'm reading from your post =)

[BJ_M]

with the matrix cards anyway -- you can calibrate your pc screen for vegas output exactly - so that what you see on your pc screen is exactly what it is ..

[sdsumike619]

that's what's supposed to happen, but no matter what adjustment i make, I cannot get the AB and CD blocks to look the same,,, somehow I don't think it's even possible,, one is blue and one is white,,, I don't know,,, you would think that looking through a blue filter that a white block would look blue haha

[BJ_M]

maybe you have the wrong filter ?


Kodak #47b gelatin filter, or from Imero Fiorentino Associates (they call it a "Monitor Analyzer").

the rosco one should work i should suppose - if its the right one ..

[BJ_M]

a filter also comes with joe kane's "video essentials" set up dvd's

[sdsumike619]

I got the exact one he said to get in the tutorial, the Rosco one for $6

[BJ_M]

http://www.videoessentials.com/products_main.php

[sdsumike619]

I just keep trying too hard at this video shit and not making any progress it seems,,,I guess what that other guy said was right, it's gonna look different everywhere no matter what I do on my end

[BJ_M]

well i never saw white through a blue filter .. unless maybe the brightness control is up all the way or nearly so ..

[sdsumike619]

nope, well obviously it's bluER than it would be without a filter,, but no matter what adjustment I make, it doesn't even come close to matching the actual blue bar

[BJ_M]

maybe -- since i HAVE to do color correction -- i have to get it looking right everywhere ..

maybe just send a disk to a friend and ask them how it looks - though 9 times out of ten people set their tv way to bright ..

[BJ_M]

nope, well obviously it's bluER than it would be without a filter,, but no matter what adjustment I make, it doesn't even come close to matching the actual blue bar

some tv just can't and others have auto adjusting circuits that you will never get set up ..

[sdsumike619]

well we've already sold a ton of the previous DVDs I already did,, no one complained, but I am complaining because I think it looks like shit