i exprience some flickering in dvdshrink result.

[fibola]

lately ive been expirence some flickering in movies which i backup with dvdshrink version 3.2.0.15. now i dont know where is the problem since not all the movies have flickering and the one that does it not all the movie . when i use decryptor and dvd shrink im closing all my apps and internet downloads , maybe this version i last update do it and maybe i need to go back couple of version ?


any ideas ?


thanx

[MackemX]

first I would try an older version and see if you get the same results

is the flickering on your PC on on your TV?

[jtoolman2000]

Media type????

[fibola]

the media are the same one from a package which i made a lot of good movies.
as for the tv or pc , its on both after i burning and im tring to watch in the standalone or through the pc dvd .

[lordsmurf]

What he may be seeing is IPB degeneration, something I also notice in DVD Shrink. If you've ever ripped a DISH stream, you can see the picture sour from I, and then pop up as clean a split-second later when it hits a new I frame.

It's not as bad on a tv screen (not always), but is horrible on a PC monitor, and then dark scenes are by far the worst. It looks like accelerated viewing of microbacterial lifeforms.

Media type cannot cause flickering.

[guns1inger]

This was what put me off shrink early on, and sent me to DVD RB. I have used the latest version of Shrink, however, and this problem does not seem to be anywhere near as pronounced if Deep Analysis and AEC optimisation is enabled. Yes, it adds to the processing time, but you should see this problem disappear almost completely. Experiment with the AEC settings until you find the one that suits you.

[vitualis]

What he may be seeing is IPB degeneration, something I also notice in DVD Shrink. If you've ever ripped a DISH stream, you can see the picture sour from I, and then pop up as clean a split-second later when it hits a new I frame.

It's not as bad on a tv screen (not always), but is horrible on a PC monitor, and then dark scenes are by far the worst. It looks like accelerated viewing of microbacterial lifeforms.

Media type cannot cause flickering.

Agreed.

Generally much more obvious on a PC screen. It should be noted that you should check the source (original) DVD as well. I've seen this effect on poorly encoded commercial DVDs as well and you transcoding to a lower overall bitrate may simply be exacerbating the problem.

Regards.

[lordsmurf]

For some reason DVD2ONE does not really have this issue. It's biggest problem is macroblocking.

When picking a transcoder, you've got to pick your flaw. Decide which one you find more acceptable.

Much of this depends on the DVD source.

Movies tend to have the IPB degeneration issue a lot more than episode discs or cartoons/animation.

Young Indiana Jones are one disc I ran into recently. DVD Shrink was awful, while the DVD2ONE was pretty decent. Inversely, try a Stargate SG1 disc in DVD2ONE, if you can see through all the blocks!

I've pretty much determined in the past that the DA (deep analysis) has no effect on this IPB issue. That mainly cleans up blocks better.

DVD-RB with ReJig tends to have both problems, which can be good and bad.

[fibola]

what is DVD RB is it other shrink program ?

[skebenin]

With the new AEC (Advanced Error Correction) options in DVDShrink, you can get two different types of 'flickering'.

I've noticed that the IPB degeneration (also sometimes called phasing) that you often see with AEC turned off can be present when AEC is set to sharp or max sharp. In fact it can be more pronounced. This type of effect is often worst in movies with lots of noise or grain, like an old 70's movie that hasn't been remastered (Dirty Harry) or a movie that was intionally filmed that way (28 Days Later). For these types of movies, AEC set to smooth is often your best bet.

The other type of 'flickering' doesn't have a name as far as I know, but I think of it as macroblock freeze. As you watch the movie, it will seem to 'jerk' in macroblock sized increments, especially in panning scenes. I've only seen this exhibit with a smooth or max smooth transcode (it seems more pronounced with max smooth). I haven't been able to identify any common charaterisitics of movies that exhibit this effect.

Luckily I haven't hit a movie yet that isn't okay one way or the other. The movies I've done that exhibit the macroblock freeze issue with smooth AEC were very clean and didn't have any phasing with sharp AEC. And the movies that exhibited phasing have turned out very good with smooth AEC, though it seems I'm hitting fewer and fewer movies lately that have this phasing issue.

[ddlooping]

skebenin, at the risk of sounding pedantic, "AEC" actually stands for "Adaptive Error Compensation".

[lordsmurf]

what is DVD RB is it other shrink program ?

DVD Rebuilder

[skebenin]

Oops! My mistake.

[proxyx99]

Funny I see you again LS in yet another DVDShrink debate (along with other famiiiar names ). First, it needs to be stressed that before anyone checks into this thread he/she has to have their eyes checked as some may question your ability to see, therefore also judge (what you see). Ready, with my latest eye exam sheet, I join the conversation.

LS, do you consider yourself eligible to participate (as per the above) and pass a sound judgment?

If so, I second the original poster's experience and because I was not able to fix it I chose another product to do the job for me (DVD2One).
So what the "IBP degradation" can be attributet to? Could it be DVDShrink error correction scheme or something else? (that is me, watching attentively). Lately I was given an impression that this can't possibly be happening in DVDShrink (temporarily I have lost track of the name of the poster, but I may be able to find it out later on).
That gets really confusing.

[vitualis]

I believe the poll suggests more people concur with "my" eyes than yours. BTW, my "eyes checked" comment was a jibe at your "blind man" comment. I'm sorry you can't see the humour in that.

In any case, this "phasing" phenomenon (as named by another member on another thread I think) is a common in MPEG encoding -- the Panasonic MPEG encoder commonly produced it. It occurs common in low bitrate situations, though not necessarily. Some encoding schemes lead to macroblocking before this becomes evident.

From the comments recently in a number of threads, it would seem that DVDShrink is more suceptible to this form of artifact before blocking and DVD2One the other way around.

I would think that it is not trivial to design an algorithm that could optimise to avoid both without some form of decoding of the actual video content (i.e., like AEC) which would of course obligate a significant increase in the transcoding time.

Regards.

[lordsmurf]

So what the "IBP degradation" can be attributet to?

The MPEG IPB/GOP format. That's all. It's a fundamental flaw of the compression method.

But when you start to jerk around with a B or P, but not an I, or your P/B are so far removed from the I, you get deterioration.

[proxyx99]

I believe the poll suggests more people concur with "my" eyes than yours. BTW, my "eyes checked" comment was a jibe at your "blind man" comment. I'm sorry you can't see the humour in that.

Polls are never used to address technical issues (least appropriate).
Your eyes are beeing put to test in this thread and not by me.
Jibes are usually contemptious, taunting and insulting. If you admit to that now at least we have some clarity. Your "sense of humour" was least appropriate at that tine. Tell this to Capmaster, your warning serving buddy.


PS.
LS, (under oath) do you consider yourself fit to participate in this discussion considering missing eye check certificate in your profile? Only then I can accept your answers with full confidence

[lordsmurf]

LS, (under oath) do you consider yourself fit to participate in this discussion considering missing eye check certificate in your profile? Only then I can accept your answers with full confidence

I've got 20/20 or better with glasses/contacts! Wearing them now!

[vitualis]

You were warned appropriately for making a personal and inflammatory attack. My comment to you was intended in good humour -- basically to imply that YOUR impression that DVD2One produced superior output is not the common experience.

If you felt that I was being insulting, then prudence would suggest that you should haved contacted me directly first and avoided the misunderstanding.

No one "forced" you to post what you did so take responsibility for it.

In any case, this is all off topic for the thread...

BTW, visual quality is not really a "technical issue" unless you reduce humans to robots. There is no numerical scale for quality. Quality is a completely subjective experience and as such, polls asking people "which looks better" is completely appropriate. The thing that the poll cannot be used for is to make the conclusion that something "IS" better, just that more people think that X looks better than Y.

Best regards.

[proxyx99]

You were warned appropriately for making a personal and inflammatory attack. My comment to you was intended in good humour -- basically to imply that YOUR impression that DVD2One produced superior output is not the common experience.

Not a common experience? Are you kidding me? You sound more and more dishonest trying to attach new ideology to your post. Already forgot about your "jibe" as you call it?

If you felt that I was being insulting, then prudence would suggest that you should haved contacted me directly first and avoided the misunderstanding.

Prudence would suggest you don't engage others in personal insults exchange. How have you qualified for modding anyway? Personally, I'd expect better judgment from a mod.

No one "forced" you to post what you did so take responsibility for it.

You did as LS pointed out later on. Obviously, there are issues with your sense of humor the way you see it.

BTW, visual quality is not really a "technical issue" unless you reduce humans to robots. There is no numerical scale for quality. Quality is a completely subjective experience and as such, polls asking people "which looks better" is completely appropriate. The thing that the poll cannot be used for is to make the conclusion that something "IS" better, just that more people think that X looks better than Y.

Diagree completely. Quality or fidelity can be measured and represented by a (average) number of artifacts introduced to the original material.
Lastly, if you are unable to argue (or run of out arguments) as universally understood, stop posting, do not provoke others with below the belt comments as I clearly objected to in the other thread. Your later made up interpretation and justification doesn't take away from the fact that you have instigated the incident and avoid taking personal responsibility for your own action.

I still maintain that DVD2One is a better, more consistent and predictable product. I'm very satisfied with the results and would reccoment it in a heartbeat. Never seen macroblocks. Had I seen any that would be the end of it. None so far. Period.

@LordSmurf.
Your 20/20 is good enough for me. Thanks and congrats. That's just in case someone's in doubt. Ever considered adding it to your profile?

[vitualis]

You were warned appropriately for making a personal and inflammatory attack. My comment to you was intended in good humour -- basically to imply that YOUR impression that DVD2One produced superior output is not the common experience.

Not a common experience? Are you kidding me? You sound more and more dishonest trying to attach new ideology to your post. Already forgot about your "jibe" as you call it?

Common experience -- note poll.

If you felt that I was being insulting, then prudence would suggest that you should haved contacted me directly first and avoided the misunderstanding.

Prudence would sugget you don't engage others in personal insults exchange. How have you qualified for modding anyway? Personally I'd expect better judgment from a mod.

I engaged no one else. The other mods acted on their own perogative. As for "qualifying" for a mod, Baldrick choose the mods. The vast majority of people of this forum has not issue with my "modding" judgement and I have been modding here long before you joined the forum. As for "personal insults exchange", how have I made an exchange? I made a single joke or "jibe" to basically highlight the incongruity in your posts, something that you completely took out of context. Then you went on a rampaging run of self-righteousness. In fact, you are the one who started making personal attacks not only on myself but several other people. Sorry, but you reek of hypocrisy here.

No one "forced" you to post what you did so take responsibility for it.

You did as LS pointed out later on. Obviously, there are issues with your sense of humor the way you see it.

So, I used my telekinesis to force your fingers into typing out your response. Please.

I don't see LordSmurf typing out what you did and we continue to have a civil discussion.

Diagree completely. Quality or fidelity can be measured and represented by a (average) number of artifacts introduced to the original material.

Whenever somebody says something like that, it is really the end of the argument. Quality cannot be measured by something like "number of artifacts" introduced. This is an absolutely simplistic fiction.

Consider artifacts like blocking vs. smoothing. Firstly, you can't really even count them and secondly, which is worse? The impression of quality is completely subjective and advanced algorithms like JPEG or MPEG takes advantage of both physiological and psychological limitations in human senses to work.

Lastly, if you are unable to argue (or run of out arguments) as universally understood, stop posting, do not provoke others with below the belt comments as I clearly objected to, in the other thread. Your later made up interpretation and justification doesn't take away from the fact that you have instigated the incident and avoid taking personal responsibility for your own action.

Below the belt comments? Unable to argue as "universally understood". Please grow up. And please learn something about MPEG encoding and quality assessment before try to bash someone as per your above post.

I still maintain that DVD2One is a better, more consistent and predictable product. I'm very satisfied with the results and would reccoment it in a heartbeat. Never seen macroblocks. Had I seen any that would be the end of it. None so far. Period.

Well, good for you. Please continue using DVD2One! Does that mean that DVD2One has superior video quality? Well, not for me and apparently not for about 3 in 4 people as per the other poll.

Best regards.

[jimmalenko]

At the risk of sounding like I'm brown-nosing to a mod ....

@proxyx99:
Get over it already, man. Let it go. You're not winning (and IMO never will win) the argument. Mods reserve the right to make personal judgements as per the AUP. Baldrick has seen fit to make vitualis a moderator and you aren't doing yourself any favours by persistently antagonising. If you don't like it, leave instead of carrying on like a two year old. Have an opinion, sure. But take others' with a grain of salt.

[MackemX]

ok, bottom line is that vitualis made what he thought was a harmless 'jibe' about DVD2One and users needing their eyes tested if they thought it was better than DVDShrink. Imagine if it was the other way round and it was DVDShrink users that needed their eyes testing. There would be a tremendous flamefest as people just would not accept that someone can say that and then not expect a reply in the same nature or worse. I bet ddlooping would be first in line with a reply although it would be of a nice nature , (probably to wash his car)

@proxyx99, as jimmalenko mentions it's best to let it go as it's all done with now and everyone is wiser to the fact but questioning his right to be a mod is a bit OTT . They are human just like us and do the same things and occasionally slip up and this is trivial to some of the crap you see on here



as for the flickering I haven't got a clue

[proxyx99]

OK, couple of thoughts here.
Vitualis has burried his reponse in so much nonsense that I have hard time sorting it all out. In an effort of avoiding writing something of a size of a book here I guess I'll take your advice and pass. Simply too much horseshit.

Nevertheless, I need to stress that I'm used to participating in discussions where participants and mods don't kick in the groin if they have nothing of value to say.

Funny how easily warnings are beeing handed oút once a mod is involved. I got three altogether for one post and an "inapropriate" complaint. Plenty of mod "solidarity" out there. It's disgusting. Moreover, I know Baldrick is watching and he never responded to my PM. That speaks volumes about AUP's "real life" implementation.

[adam]

I'm not sure I totally understand what this flickering is. Fibola any chance you can post a short sample or direct us to a particular problem scene? (ie: Matrix chapter 3 @ 50% compression.)

If I'm thinking what you're thinking, I call this the dancing pixel effect. It looks like the pixels don't match up from one frame to the next, so you get this sort of weird strobing effect. Its particularly noticable with red or overly saturated colors and yes it is an inherant problem with mpeg in general, but more specifically with transcoding...IMO. Its just a result of uneven compression. No transcoder applies equal compression to each frame, so you run into situations where you've got a heavily compressed frame sandwiched between two frames that are left practically untouched. So any artifact introduced during compression just flashes on the screen for a second, which actually makes it much more noticable. I see this happen in all transcoders. Maybe its more noticable with DVD Shrink, I don't know. It used to be a real problem back when Shrink only applied compression to all B pictures, or to all P pictures, rather then mix it up. Its alot better now but can still be really distracting.

[jimmalenko]

Funny how easily warnings are beeing handed oút once a mod is involved. I got three altogether for one post and an "inapropriate" complaint. Plenty of mod "solidarity" out there. It's disgusting. Moreover, I know Baldrick is watching and he never responded to my PM. That speaks volumes about AUP's "real life" implementation.

I'm still trying to work out your agenda.

If you don't like it, leave. No-one is forcing you to come here.

[proxyx99]

If my words escape you I can't help you any further.

[Cobra]

Adam,

I read your "dancing pixel effect" - does the AEC (Adaptive Error Correction) on the new DVD Shrink aim to get rid of that? Put it on "Maximum Smoothness" and I believe that effect is reduced.

I may be wrong, but it looks like that is what it does.

Cobra

[jimmalenko]

If my words escape you I can't help you any further.

I don't understand what you mean. Please explain

[adam]

Cobra, I've noticed that using maximum smoothness helps this problem (the one I mentioned, not necessarily the one the poster did) alot. I have no idea if this was the intention of this quality mode, or even what the various quality modes specifically do apart from their description in the program, but it is nice to have options.