Lost re: capture and video cards

[daamon]

Hi all,

I've been checking the forums and suggsted sites for quite a while now and have conceded defeat about cards for VHS capture.

I'm in the process of detailing requirements for a new PC I'm gonna get built (specs to follow).

I've pretty much got everything nailed down, but (after a lot of reading) I'm not 100% sure about video cards, graphics cards & capture cards and wondered if I could ask for help to confirm or deny my understanding...?

1. Are graphics cards and video cards the same thing? (I'm thinking "Yes").

2. Do I need / is it better to have a separate video (graphics?) card and a capture card. (I'm thinking "Yes").

3. I've been told that I could get the "128MB ASUS RADEON 9200SE (DVI, TV/O)" card as both capture and graphics card in one.

a) Is that right?
b) Is it any good / will it be sufficient?

4. I currently "capture" (transfer) from miniDV cam to PC via firewire, but want to expand to capturing from VHS so I can put these on to DVD too - I think I need an ATI RADEON AIW 9200 (or similar).

a) Is this sufficient for VHS capture?
b) Is there any benefit in going for a higher spec card? (AIW 9600, 9700, 9800 - PRO/XT etc.) Or is it just extra functionality (e.g. FM radio etc.)?

5. Is "ATI AIW RADEON" the chipset (or whatever it's called) that is used by different card manufacturers like Asus, Gigabyte, Sapphire?

6. Do these cards capture to AVI (of some kind)? I want to edit before encoding to MPG. I don't want one that (only) encodes to MPEG on the fly.

7. I know of the Canopus ADVC-100, but wonder if / believe it can be done via a card and at a cheaper price. Am I kidding myself?

8. Any pitfalls I need to be aware of going down the (cheaper vs ADVC-100) card route?

9. I'm guessing the card will come with it's own software.

a) Is this typically any good, or would something like ScenalyzerLive be better?
b)Any other recommendations for software?

Sorry for loads of questions (especially if they're dumb ones!) - I've done so much reading that I'm totally lost.

Thanks all for any info to get me to the light at the end of the tunnel.

Pertinent PC Specs:
P4 3.0GHZ HT 800fsb on (probably) an Asus mobo w/out onboard video.
2 x 512Mb DDR PC3200 Dual Channel RAM

[lordsmurf]

1. They shouldn't be, but some people don't know any better. Video is video. Computers output graphics to a monitor. Much confusion for many years on this.

2. Not necessarily, no. Perfect example: ATI All In Wonders.

3. Yes, yes.

4. Yes, sufficient. No, for video, all AIW cards have one of two Theatre chips, and both operate pretty much the same.

5. ATI Radeon is the graphics class. All In Wonder means it has the Theatre capture chips too. Few non-AIW have the awesome Theatre chips.

6. Yes. AVI uncompressed, or with codecs (WMV, huffYUV, MJPEG, etc), as well as MPEG1, MPEG2 and now MPEG4 (FourCC AVI's).

7. The Canopus is a DV transfer device. Nothing more. It's overhyped, but does work well. Better than other $100+ cards? Not really.

8. Be aware that digital capture devices are more sensitive to video signal errors and imperfections, so a decent VHS or S-VHS VCR is a good idea, as is a TBC. No card or recorder will really get around this. The Canopus "feature" of ignoring errors is also not foolproof. Recorder that feature "TBC" are not full frame, thus not very useful either. Spend $200 on a TBC, and never worry about any signal error or copy protectiong ever again.

9. If you go ATI, use ATI MMC. If you go Hauppauge, use their software. If you buy something even cheaper, experiment (iuVCR, VirtualDub, etc). Some NLE's can capture too (Premiere, Final Cut, etc).

Smart move having an Intel P4 and 1GB RAM for video.

[thecoalman]

Graphics or video cards serve one purpose and that is to display images on your monitor. Unless your using it for gaming or 3-d animation you have no need for a top of the line model. Any graphics card is sufficient for video editing puposes.

As for which capture device or crd you can get a hundred opinions here. According to the local ATI guru the ATI AIW produces the best results but from experience I can tell you it can be very troublesome. If the tapes you intend on capturing are older you will probably end up having to buy additional external video equipment to get it to work right. I'm not sure how the VIVO version compares to the AIW but I would guess they are the same.

I'm going to be purchasing a canopus myself, I have seen very little negative comments about it, almost none. The best thing about the canopus is ease of use, it's just like using your cam. It eliminates two of the most common problems, dropped frames and out of sync audio. BTW you might want to check and see if your cam has pass thru ability, you could just use that.

Most cards or devices come with enough software to get you started. Nearly every card captures to AVI.

[SatStorm]

Since you are mostly PAL (UK / Australia) and since you are using DV and you wish to capture VHS, then a great solution is those Datavideo devices. They are like the well known Canopus, by default without Macrovision (a problem sometimes for all the ATI cards, but there are solutions...) and at a much cheaper price.

I don't like "all in one" solutions. Not that there are no great "all in one" solutions, but I don't like them!

[thecoalman]

I don't like "all in one" solutions. Not that there are no great "all in one" solutions, but I don't like them!

Definitley, for example. All-in-one printer/scanner/fax, printer breaks and now you have a giant scanner taking up all your desk space. If something happens to a vital component there all broke.

[lordsmurf]

Canopus, by default without Macrovision

No they aren't. And some of the new ones can no longer do this!

[daamon]

All,

Thanks for the replies and info. I think there's light at the end of the tunnel, but the answers have raised a couple of questions:

4. I currently "capture" (transfer) from miniDV cam to PC via firewire, but want to expand to capturing from VHS so I can put these on to DVD too - I think I need an ATI RADEON AIW 9200 (or similar).

4. Yes, sufficient. No, for video, all AIW cards have one of two Theatre chips, and both operate pretty much the same.

When you say "No, for video" am I right in thinking that's "No, not for video from a miniDV cam"? If not, please explain...

...then a great solution is those Datavideo devices.

I've had a look in the "Capture Cards" <---. Do you mean something like the Datavideo DAC-100? Here in Oz, I've found it for $499 compared to $528 for the Canopus ADVC-100.

Or are there cheaper versions that'll do the job?

So, here's what I understand (I think) - Get either a "128MB ASUS RADEON 9200SE (DVI, TV/O)" or a "ATI RADEON AIW 9200" as a graphics card and a capture card. Why would I choose one over the other? Which one? The AIW coz of the great chip?

With either card, I may need to get a TBC if I encounter problems with older and / or poor quality tapes, because the ATI mightbe troublesome.

There are other options (the ADVC-100 or Datavideo), but these are more expensive.

Have I got it right in my head? If not, please explain...

P.S. My 1000th post

[lordsmurf]

All,

Thanks for the replies and info. I think there's light at the end of the tunnel, but the answers have raised a couple of questions:

4. I currently "capture" (transfer) from miniDV cam to PC via firewire, but want to expand to capturing from VHS so I can put these on to DVD too - I think I need an ATI RADEON AIW 9200 (or similar).

4. Yes, sufficient. No, for video, all AIW cards have one of two Theatre chips, and both operate pretty much the same.

When you say "No, for video" am I right in thinking that's "No, not for video from a miniDV cam"? If not, please explain...

a) Is this sufficient for VHS capture? .

= Yes, sufficient

b) Is there any benefit in going for a higher spec card? (AIW 9600, 9700, 9800 - PRO/XT etc.) Or is it just extra functionality (e.g. FM radio etc.)?

= No, no advantage for 9800 over 9600 over 9200 over 8500 over 7500, etc. For video, all AIW cards have one of two Theatre chips (as opposed to another chipset), and both (of these Theatre chips) operate pretty much the same. Radeon is the graphics chip. Theatre is the video chip. Both are on an AIW board.

With either card, I may need to get a TBC if I encounter problems with older and / or poor quality tapes, because the ATI mightbe troublesome.

No, because ANY CAPTURE CARD (or DVD recorder!) may have trouble with bad source.

[The_Doman]

4. I currently "capture" (transfer) from miniDV cam to PC via firewire, but want to expand to capturing from VHS so I can put these on to DVD too - I think I need an ATI RADEON AIW 9200 (or similar).

Most newer DV camera's have ANALOG input's now. You should check if your camera has that option too and use that. I am using that with my (D8)DV camera to transfer my VHS tapes and it works excellent. It even stabilizes the picture of the video nicely like using a TBC. It wil really give you the best results!

[SatStorm]

I search a bit myself regarding Canopus and Datavideo.
Datavideo DAC 100 is like Canopus ADVC-100 without macrovision. But the price difference is not so huge anymore between the two (last time I checked prices was months ago). Also, the latest Datavideo solutions are not Canopus like, so they don't do the same things like the Canopus products.
In short terms, when we talking about Datavideo, we talking only for DAC 100. And unfortunatelly, it is not much cheaper the original thing (Canopus)

There are also other solutions from Canopus, a bit cheaper: ADVC50 and ADVC55. They are about the same and with a small hacking (remove jumper 6) are MC free.

IMO, those are the ultimate solutions regarding PAL VHS / SVHS transfers to your PC. Old fashion capturing comes second.
I can't speak myself for NTSC.

[thecoalman]

With either card, I may need to get a TBC if I encounter problems with older and / or poor quality tapes, because the ATI mightbe troublesome.

No, because ANY CAPTURE CARD (or DVD recorder!) may have trouble with bad source.

That's not completely true, I have captured a VHS tape perfectly with one of the cheapest cards available that was impossible with the AIW. The only trouble is that the capture quality is not that great compared to the AIW. This same tape gave another MV enabled device trouble too so it's not neccesarily a AIW issue.

Keep in mind that a "bad source" tape can be played on a VCR to TV connection without any visible problems. The issue only arises when you go to capture it.

If you want a little more in depth explanation see my page here: www.nepadigital.com/mv

[daamon]

Most newer DV camera's have ANALOG input's now. You should check if your camera has that option too and use that. I am using that with my (D8)DV camera to transfer my VHS tapes and it works excellent. It even stabilizes the picture of the video nicely like using a TBC. It wil really give you the best results!

Hi The_Doman,

I'm gonna check this out on a friend's PC who captures VHS through his miniDV cam (different to mine) and then out via firewire to PC.

@ All,

From all the info above, I think I've got a pretty good idea as to what I need (if the DV cam analog pass-thru don't work). So, a big "thank you".

My problem now is finding somewhere in Oz (pref. Melbourne) that sells what I want - any card that is based on a "All In Wonder and Radeon 9200".

I've been recommended to 2 sites: http://www.centrecom.com.au and http://www.i-store.com.au. Both of whom sell a collection of graphics / capture cards. It seems though that neither of them have an "ATI All In Wonder Radeon" based card, just the "ATI Radeon" cards.

From what Lordsmurf has said, the "All In Wonder" has "the awesome Theatre chips". What will be my loss if I get a card without this on?

Cheers...

[jimmalenko]

Hi daamon,

Good to see the computer search has progressed this far

I think it really depends on the full scope of what you want to be able to do with your setup that will determine what you need to buy. For example, you mention that you want to stay away from a Direct-to-MPEG solution (which I agree with) because AVI is much much easier to edit.

My solution: I have the ADVC-100 and I'm a massive fan. I ummed and arred for a while because $500 is a lot of brass but I'm truly thankful I decided to purchase it. As I understand it, the DAC-100 is not dissimilar, with only a few small differences separating it and the ADVC-100. Older versions of the ADVC-100 required holding 1 button down for 20 seconds to disable macrovision but I'm led to believe that you can't do this with the later models. I have my VCR connected to the ADVC-100, as well as sometimes my XBOX. Then it is just a DV transfer just like using your MiniDV cam.

The only difference between the ADVC-100, ADVCD-50 and ADVC-55 is that the 100 can output back to an analog destination (such as VHS). If this won't be required then you should go the 50 or 55 IMO.

I think it would be worth your while seeing if you can hook your VCR up through your miniDV cam. That would certainly be a cheap solution for you.

[daamon]

Hi Jim,

Good to see the computer search has progressed this far

All your help via PM has been invaluable. I've considered the ADVC-100 and DAC-100 but, like you say, it's a lot of dough - and it seems that a capture card might be a cheap(er) alternative. The card route will also allow me to do more of what I want (see below).

I think it really depends on the full scope of what you want to be able to do with your setup that will determine what you need to buy.

This is what I'm looking to do with my graphics / capture card:

a) Capture from and record back to VHS - thus counting out the ADVC-50 & 55.
b) Good speed / reliability - why I've (nearly 100%) decided on an "ATI AIW Radeon" based card.
c) TV Tuner would be a nice bonus...

Of course, if the analog pass-thru works then I guess I'll only need a TV card that has S-Video out?

What a minefield!?!?

[jimmalenko]

This is what I'm looking to do with my graphics / capture card:

a) Capture from and record back to VHS - thus counting out the ADVC-50 & 55.
b) Good speed / reliability - why I've (nearly 100%) decided on an "ATI AIW Radeon" based card.
c) TV Tuner would be a nice bonus...

Of course, if the analog pass-thru works then I guess I'll only need a TV card that has S-Video out?

I'm not sure how well the video outs work, but I'm sure someone could ansewr that one for you.

Despite being a huge fan of the ADVC-100, I think you might be able to get by with an ATI card.

One question though - why output back to VHS when you have DVD ?

[daamon]

One question though - why output back to VHS when you have DVD ?

Actually, that's a good question - my original answer was gonna be "Because there may / will be occassions where I want my finished project on VHS rather than DVD".

But I suppose I could burn it to DVD-RW and then just record from my standalone to VHS. I'm guessing the resultant VHS would be a comparable quality as long as the DVD is of a satisfactory quality (highest possible bitrate etc.). The source is most likely to be DV AVI for VHS.

The reason for capping from VHS is movies I have on tape I want on DVD.

A case of getting too focussed and not thinking outside of the (small) box...

But, this detail aside, this question still remains.

[thecoalman]

Despite being a huge fan of the ADVC-100, I think you might be able to get by with an ATI car

Having had both my vote is for the Canopus. I just purchased a ADVC 110 and I love it (same as the 100 but it doesn't require a external power source). My opinion may be biased because I had a lot of trouble with my ATI card when trying to capture older VHS tapes and it's not just an issue with mine.

The canopus worked perfectly.

[daamon]

OK, so I'm getting the feeling that a Canopus (or similar) is the choice (for some) for VHS capture. This has addressed an aspect of my original post.

I'm gonna be trying my miniDV cam on a friends PC to see if analog pass-thru is possible, and I'll also check to see the results (i.e. the quality of the resultant DV AVI).

If it doesn't work, then it's either a pricey canopus (or equivalent) or the cheaper card route.

Those who favour the card seem to be recommending an ATI AIW Radeon. My problem is that of the sites I can find (the 2 above, who service Melbourne), they only seem to have ATI Radeon (no AIW) - what will I lose by not having the "AIW" chip on board?

Do I need an AIW chip for the card to be able to support TV-in (not HDTV)? I ask because when I check out the capture card page all of the TV-tuner cards / graphics cards that are made by ATI have AIW mentioned in the name.

[daamon]

Well, partial success with seeing if my miniDV cam does analog pass thru - but that's a topic for another thread (here, if you think you might be able to help).

So, it looks like I'm gonna have to go for a card for a couple of reasons - I'm not gonna be doing loads of caps, and the Canpous family and similar boxes are pricey for the amount of use they're gonna get.

But, I'm still not clear on this:

Do I need an AIW chip for the card to be able to support TV-in (not HDTV)? I ask because when I check out the capture card page page all of the TV-tuner cards / graphics cards that are made by ATI have AIW mentioned in the name.

What will I lose by not having the "AIW" chip on board?

Also, would I be better getting a card that goes into the PCI slot or the AGP slot? I've read that AGP is specifically desing for graphics cards and so is quicker, or (for my needs) is there no / negligible difference?

Thanks.