How much should I "trust" my DVD media?

[msfox]

How much do you guys worry about the robustness of your DVD media once you have verified that you got a good burn?

Here is my situation. I have been transferring some of home movies of my daughter from Hi8 and miniDV to DVD. I have about 450 GB combined disk space and therefore have been able to keep my projects on my hard drives while starting new ones. The problem is, I can't bring myself to delete the finushed projects to make room for new ones, since I am concerned that the DVD might become unreadable for some reason in the future.

I have verified I got good burns by re-reading each DVD back into the computer as an .iso using DVD Decryptor. (Just for your info, I have 15 DVD's burned so far...all read fine except 2 which were Philips blanks. The rest were Memorex. All are DVD+R.)

I have put alot of work into editing these DVDs. Am I going overboard being concerned about this? Is a home-burned DVD fairly robust once it is verified?

Looking for your points of view.

Thanks,

Mike

[GizmoTheGremlin]

Keep in mind two things:

1.) DVDRs are NOT as durable (scratch resistant) as the same DVDs that you would buy in a store.

2.) Even the highest quality DVDR is somewhat fragile.

I was walking outside with a prodisc in hand, when I dropped it. I didn't throw it, it just dropped less than three feet to the ground. I picked it up and it was ruined. Warped rainbow like lines all through the section that hit the ground first.

I'd say that if these things are really valuable, I'd go to great lengths to keep them preserved. At least make extra backups.

By the way, your hard drive isn't always the safest place either.

[Jikchung]

I have been transferring my home movies (some so old they are VHS) to DVD as well as outputting the edited video back to tape as DV, so I always have at least 2 copies plus whatever goes ot to various relatives.

[GizmoTheGremlin]

I forgot to mention the time issue. Despite what you may have been told, no DVD will last a thousand years. In 5 - 10 years, transfer all of that info onto a blue ray disc. I don't know what the life expectancy of these will be, but you may have to make a new one every few years.

[lordsmurf]

GizmoTheGremlin, I'm afraid I disagree. Discs are not that fragile. The plastics on commercials discs and recordable media are not very different at all. So therefore, I have no idea what you're talking about. Rainbow color from dropping it? I don't think so.

Media can be scratched. Poor materials makes for poor discs. Buy the best you can, store safely, and take care of them. This is no different from VHS tapes or anything else (floppies, etc).

The worst time for magnetic media is when used. With optical media, that's the time when they are safest.

[GizmoTheGremlin]

GizmoTheGremlin, I'm afraid I disagree. Discs are not that fragile. The plastics on commercials discs and recordable media are not very different at all. So therefore, I have no idea what you're talking about. Rainbow color from dropping it? I don't think so.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I know what happened. I kept the disc.



I've dropped original DVD's on occasion, and I've never seen anything like this. Believe it or not, it's your choice, but it did happen.

Back-ups are much more sensitive to scratches than the originals are. This is just my opinion, and it could be wrong, but I'm not changing it at this moment. I've seen originals so bad, that I thought they would never play, yet they do. But I've seen back-ups that still look pretty good, but give major read errors.

I agree that you should use top quality media, but if this guy chooses to put all his eggs in one basket, then that's his risk to take. I'm in the same situation, but with digital photographs. I keep them on CD's, DVD's and on the hard drive. My photo's are too valuable for me to risk any one thing going wrong and losing everything.

[Halm]

I'd certainly like to know how a DVDR could become damaged by dropping it 3 feet. Disks get flexed every time they are removed from a standard DVD case. I've seen my grandaughter bend some to the point I thought they'd crack and they still played fine. Scratched...yes...scratches are a problem. Damaging the plastic or the ink between the plastic layers? I don't think so.

I just took a Ritek '04 and held it thru the center. I whacked it on the floor as hard as I could...twice. No visible damage and the disk still plays fine.

[888888]

msfox, you have asked the million dollar question. Are DVDs reliable enough to trust them 100%. While I REALLY hope that lordsmurf is right when he always insists that DVDR does not deteriorate, nobody really does know for sure since nobody has had DVDRs for 20 years. The same can't be said for cassettes or floppies since people have stored cassesttes in a box in the attic for 20 years and recovered them fine. And let's not forget Vinyl records.

I have to agree with Gremlin on recordable media being more scratch-prone than pressed media. Often times, I try to wipe discs with a special Maxell lint-free CD cloth. Despite their name, they DO leave tiny scratches. I have noticed that recordable media get many more scratches when I wipe this way than when I wipe pressed DVDs or CDs. I have done this many many times so it's not like I got a special DVD or something.

Anyway, my advice to you is... well, I guess I don't have any advice since I suffer from the same dilemma you do. What I do now is try to use some of the best media available (I use MXLRG02), keep discs out of the sun and other poor conditions, and hope for the best. Very important stuff I backup twice, once on Prodisc DVD-R and the second time on Ritek HD-Burn CDRs. The only other option is to buy a new hard drive, hook it up externally, and use it only for backups. I presently can't afford that option, and as mentioned previously, hard drives fail.

[lordsmurf]

That's oxygenation (sp?) of the materials.
This is why "disc rot" is not possible. Such things are immediate, not something that takes months.

I've seen that on new media, never used:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/reviews/longten.htm

Your glue was loose. That was not caused from dropping it. I've never, never, never seen a PRODISCS03 disc with bad glue. That's usually something you see ONLY on Hong Kong made media.

Dropping it just quickened the inevitable.

I mentioned that above (sort of), but it's worth repeating: buy the best materials possible, and take care of them.

I've ruined far more VHS tapes from dropping them than I have discs. Fixing shells is not fun, and often part of the tape was fragged in the drop or during the fix.

You can cause loose glue and warp the material by using cheap cases that warp the disc, or otherwise storing them in an environment where they get bent. Never yank on a disc (CD or DVD, pressed or burned), as it will crack the inside materials. That's user error.

I should also add that carrying a DVD outside, without a case, was rather irresponsible. That was not storing it properly.

[GizmoTheGremlin]

I just took a Ritek '04 and held it thru the center. I whacked it on the floor as hard as I could...twice. No visible damage and the disk still plays fine.

This disc definately landed on its edge, as can be seen from the pic. but other than that, I can't tell you why it happened. I picked it up, thinking it was fine, wiped the dust off, and I saw that.

I was completely shocked, I even showed a friend of mine who was also shocked. I drew the logical conclusion that these discs weren't as durable as originals. I didn't put more through any "crash tests" to prove my theory. I just left it at that. Maybe it was a fluke, I don't know, but I know that it happened.

I'm not sure how you can whack one on the ground and not damage it. I can destroy any disc doing that, and I'm not a big guy. But I do agree that they can be bent quite a bit before they are damaged.

That's oxygenation (sp?) of the materials.
This is why "disc rot" is not possible. Such things are immediate, not something that takes months.

I've seen that on new media, never used:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/reviews/longten.htm

Your glue was loose. That was not caused from dropping it. I've never, never, never seen a PRODISCS03 disc with bad glue. That's usually something you see ONLY on Hong Kong made media.

Dropping it just quickened the inevitable.

You may be right. but it was prodisc (MCC media code). As I said, it may have been a fluke.

All I know, is that I would never recommend putting all my valuable data on one source. This event only solidified that belief for me.

[lordsmurf]

MCC actually have some of the best seals and external workmanship I've ever seen. I'm even more shocked. I'd venture a guess that you caused this from a bad case of some sort, one that held it in a warped position.

I keep important stuff in double or triple. Sometimes off site, sometimes on site in a media safe.

[GizmoTheGremlin]

It was right off the spindle, freshly burned and printed. I was on my way to the garage (it's not attached to the house) to spray a coat of clear gloss when this happened. I wasn't even moving. Almost straight down, less than 3 ft.

Smurf, I believe that you are a reputable person, and if all that you say is true, then my experience was a fluke. I admit that I don't know about the glues (who makes the best, etc...), I just know what I saw, and that was more than enough to teach me what I needed.

[GizmoTheGremlin]

I took a coaster, that I made a couple days ago, outside to test it. I held it down at arms length, stood still, and dropped it on the concrete.

First time it landed on its back, and there was no visible damage. Second time it landed on the edge and got damaged similar to the disc pic I posted (although not as severe). This disc is also prodisc, MCC media code.

I'm done testing, so feel free to try it on your own. Smurf, I think you just ordered quite a bit of these, so take your coasters out and tell me if you get the same results.

[skebenin]

That damage looks like characteristic shock damage. You can almost see the hemispherical boundary of the shock wave. Concentrating the force of an impact on a small area increases the potential for damage drastically, especially if the concentration is strong enough to create a shock wave that exceeds the strenght of the material.

I have to admit that I'm surprised you were able to recreate it. I would think that kind of thing would be extremely rare - as in a fluke. Perhaps you put just a touch of spin on the disk (like a frisby), ensuring it impacted exactly on edge. I have a whole pile of Memorex coasters; I might have to experiment myself.

I was thinking you might be able to increase the reliability of your backups if you used PAR (parity archive). With PAR, you split your file up into parts, then use a PAR utility to create PAR files for your splits.

Later, when you want to restore your file from the parts and one of the parts is damaged, if you have one PAR file you can recover the damaged part from the surviving parts and that PAR. With two PAR files, you can recover two damaged parts. It's kind of like off-line RAID storage (kind of). If you create a large number of PARs, and spread the parts and the PARs across two DVDRs, I'd think you have a good chance of recovery even if both disks have significant damage or degradation.

I guess I should mention that the split files and PARs would be strictly for archival purposes. You wouldn't be able to watch them without recovering, joining, and burning a fresh DVD.

[lordsmurf]

Smurf, I think you just ordered quite a bit of these, so take your coasters out and tell me if you get the same results.

I'll climb on the roof and play "slam the disc" with some coasters tomorrow. I've got three PRODISCS03 coasters that I've been saving for whatever (coasters can be useful for many things!). This will be fun.

When I first get an MCC coaster, I'll repeat the process. I'll post pictures.

I'll try from arm's length too, exact same manner as you did. I'll test all kind of distance, force, etc. 8)

[GizmoTheGremlin]

The second time I did it, it didn't produce nearly as much damage as the first time. But the waves were definately there, and the disc would not be playable (even if it weren't already a coaster).

I have to admit that I'm surprised you were able to recreate it. I would think that kind of thing would be extremely rare - as in a fluke. Perhaps you put just a touch of spin on the disk (like a frisby), ensuring it impacted exactly on edge.

I admit that I was trying to make it land on its edge, but I didn't intentionally put any spin on it. The first drop simply didn't land on the edge, but the second one landed perfectly. It even bounced straight up (a little).

I'm definately interested in seeing the results of this little experiment.

[kamuixtv]

It depends on how and where do you handle your media.



This is a fake ProdiscG02 and it's already 1 year and 3 months old since I burned it (I dunno when it was manufactured) it has no problems, I stored them on an air tight, no dust, no heat/sun place. It's really weird that I "trusted" this brand. This brand is already obsolete. btw I'm writing them on the center if you notice.

My problem now is the bad batches of ritekg04 (I'm not buying it anymore) and prodiscs03. There's no Hi-quality media in my place like TY, TDK, Mitsui

My only choices are
Imation 4x prodisc03 DVD-R
Memorex4X DVD-R CMCAF1
Fake Prodiscg02 with horse emblem

What's better?

[TheUnknownComic]

It was right off the spindle, freshly burned and printed. I was on my way to the garage (it's not attached to the house) to spray a coat of clear gloss when this happened. I wasn't even moving. Almost straight down, less than 3 ft.

I don't think anyone pointed it out, but perhaps the disc was more delicate because it was freshly burnt. When you record a full disc, that's a lot of heat being disapated by the disc. It may not feel hot to the touch, but it likely takes a little while before everything fully settles down (re-crystalizes or sets or whatever). After all, practically every pit has been zapped or has absorbed some heat from its burnt neighbors.

Maybe this is a topic worth someone testing? Burn a full disc and see if it seems more fragile to bends and drops. Test different brands. If there is a trend, then it would be best to not touch the disc for a little while after it burns. No printing on it. No applying labels to it. Maybe it would be best to not even test-play it for a few minutes. Hey, if you took the time to preserve video to DVD, then why not take a little extra precaution once the burn completes successfully?

On an additional note, we know some DVD recorders suffer from lack of fans. Perhaps it is the disc that is getting too hot and not responding quite as it should rather than electronics getting flaky.

[lordsmurf]

takes a little while before everything fully settles down (re-crystalizes or sets or whatever).

No.

[kisrum]

I'm not as far into this as some of you, but for every home video I burn to DVD, I (eventually) put another copy in a safety deposit box. They don't take up much room. This doesn't answer the question of the durability of the media, of course. It's just all I'm willing to do. For all I know, the bank could flood too.

Maybe you could copy to a DV tape at the same time if you want some future flexibility. Seems like no matter how advanced the next phase of digital storage becomes you should still be able to get your end product off of a DVD or DV tape and update to whatever is current. If money is no object then pay some off-site server company to keep it on their servers in perpetuity. Most hospitals, especially the pharmacy section, back up their digital data to sites hundreds of miles away, at least once a week.

Florida is currently full of people who've lost every scrap of their hard copy memories and most of them just move on and tape and photograph new ones.

Whatever you do to protect your cherished memories, your great-grandchildren will throw them out when they put your children in the old folks home. "Do you want these?" "I don't want'em." "How about you?" "Nope" "Trash?" "Yep."

Into the landfill, right next to the National Geographics.

[lordsmurf]

I took a disc and dropped it in the tile floor. Nothing. I took it to concrete. Dropped it once. Nothing. Twice. Nothing, though I did start to notice plastic chipping on the edge. Third time. That did it. Same spot, three drops, chipped away plastic, and a small rainbow formed in the out edge.

Slammed it on the ground. That was not smart. I had to get a broom.

Same test with a CD, same results.

Same test with a VHS tape. Smashed to crap on the first drop.

I guess this concludes that media was not made to be dropped or smashed against concrete. No wonder we see ridiculous disclaimers on products, my favorite: Do not operate chainsaw with genitals! I can see it now: Do not attempt to bounce media on concrete.

[jackedup]

I took a disc and dropped it in the tile floor. Nothing. I took it to concrete. Dropped it once. Nothing. Twice. Nothing, though I did start to notice plastic chipping on the edge. Third time. That did it. Same spot, three drops, chipped away plastic, and a small rainbow formed in the out edge.

Slammed it on the ground. That was not smart. I had to get a broom.

Same test with a CD, same results.

Same test with a VHS tape. Smashed to crap on the first drop.

I guess this concludes that media was not made to be dropped or smashed against concrete. No wonder we see ridiculous disclaimers on products, my favorite: Do not operate chainsaw with genitals! I can see it now: Do not attempt to bounce media on concrete.

CAUTION - Not to be used as a basketball. Do not over inflate

[GizmoTheGremlin]

I guess this concludes that media was not made to be dropped or smashed against concrete.

I'd say that's a pretty safe conclusion. Thanks for the confirmation.

Do not operate chainsaw with genitals!

What!? Well then how the hell are you supposed to do it? Ah shite. I guess I have to pull out the instruction manual and figure out the girly way of operating a chainsaw.

[Capmaster]

Your glue was loose. That was not caused from dropping it. I've never, never, never seen a PRODISCS03 disc with bad glue. That's usually something you see ONLY on Hong Kong made media.

Hey Smurfie, you don't suppose ..... ?N ....N .....Na ...Nak ..... I can't bring myself to type it :P

[Tommyp1972]

ms fox..i've been burning disks since pioneer made A03's way back when..and i still have the dvd-r's from then and they work perfect..i would stay away from the ultra-cheap dvd's because for some reason they are really cheap feeling and scratch very easy...i keep my disks in a hard case and handle them all carefully..as long as you don't abuse the disks they should last for a very very long time..if you want you can always vacuum seal them and store in a safe place..

[Shocker Milwaukee]

@Gizmo & Lordsmurf

The rainbow effect is from the separation of the layers of the disc. I've seen it when I bend/break coasters I've made. I think Gizmo had the "million-dollar drop," landing directly on the "sweet spot." Probably hard to re-create, but proof that DVDR isn't indestructible.