is VHS better than DVD in anything ?

[dennismv]

Source: DV (FourCC: DVSD)
Output1: DVD (720x480, 6000,7000, or 8000 video bitrate, 384 audio AC3 bitrate)
Output2: VHS (SP or LP modes)

General consensus seems to be that DVD is better than VHS.
However, I wonder: is VHS better than DVD in some areas ?

For example, since VHS is analog, there are no digital artifacts, which may be present in digital video. Since my source is DV (digital), some digital artifacts may already be present in the source. However, DV to DVD conversion may introduce even more artifacts, while DV to VHS will not.
Is this a concern ?

Why I'm asking:
I want to record my DV videos onto some format, and I'm considering:
* record on both DVD and VHS (what I thought of doing first, as I'm used to recording on VHS, and just started recording to DVD recently)
* record on DVD only (what my friend suggested)
so the bottom line is: will I be fine by recording on DVD only, or should I record on VHS too ?

[Capmaster]

VHS is far superior to DVD if you want to hang your camp food from a tree to foil bears. Pull out a few yards of that tape and the mylar will hold about 5 pounds or so. Good stuff.

For video ..... no contest. Digital is the only way to go.

Digital has some artifacts like macro blocks and hesitation, but only if your bitrate is set too low. Analog artifacts like the kind you'll find with VHS are far worse.

And there is the issue of tape stretch and mechanical slop threatening your A/V sync later when you decide to pull it back off VHS and put it on DVD.

And then there is the deterioration caused by thermal cycling, noise and signal degradation caused by magnetic fields like the kind vacuum cleaners generate.

VHS as a choice over digital/DVD? No way

[dennismv]

geesh, heh, I guess that really settles it : )

thanks

[Capmaster]

geesh, heh, I guess that really settles it : )

thanks

I'm just glad you didn't get flamed for the question I guess my sarcastic comment about the camp bears satisfied the potential flamers

Seriously, that would be similar to preferring cassette tape over CD to capture a "best of" collection for the car

The digital artifacts I consider to be less of a problem because they can be overcome with a parameter change that also improves overall quality - using a higher bitrate. Removing analog artifacts in a tape-to-digital transfer actually degrades the quality of the resulting video because filters must be employed to detect and remove noise.

They generally have a softening effect and, while pleasing to the eye in small doses, too much softening is a very bad thing in the DVD world since DVDs look as nice as they do mainly because they are crystal clear and not fuzzy or muddy like many VHS videos are.

[ricky1756]

it's better at taking up space

[zorankarapancev]

For the best quality - keep your DV tapes!
ANY conversion is a compromise!
Keep your DV tapes even if you convert them to a DVD. Nobody knows when and what kind of problems you can have eventualy with the DVD's.

[dennismv]

I actually liked the bear comments.
They drove the point home.

And about keeping DV tapes ...
I hoped I could eliminate the need to keep DV tapes once I put them on DVD. Well... I'll keep just the most important things on DV, and put the rest on DVD.
Since I want to reuse DV tapes, and not just get new ones every time.

[pyscrow]

They work much better in my VCR than DVD's :P

[Thorn]

They work much better in my VCR than DVD's :P

The DV tapes?? I have 3 or 4 of them jammed in my VCR right now and can't get any video at all. Maybe it's just not full yet.

As for storing the DV tapes, order online or go to costco and buy in bulk. If you don't have "absolutely must save the tape" events twice a month you won't be sinking too much money into DV tapes. I keep the weddings and such, and tape over the miscelaneous moments of myself and others drinking.

The most important thing is to play with DVD encoding a little before mass producing DVDs. Find out what works for you, then you can be confident that when you encode for DVD that you'll be satisfied with the result (and not regret taping over the less important stuff).

[thecoalman]

For the best quality - keep your DV tapes!
ANY conversion is a compromise!

Good idea but a I also keep a copy of the original AVI on DVD too. 3 discs but worth the money for something that can't be replaced.

[BetaMaster]

I'm still going to be using VHS for a few years. In fact, I just bought a new SVHS machine this year. I will be going to DVD recordables one of these days, but not right now.

- VHS still leads in record time. 6-8 hours on a VHS tape is nothing. If you like changing discs every 1-2 hours, be my guest. That will change as DL, Blu-Ray and HD come onto the market.
- There are still movies not available on DVD that are easy to get on VHS. I want to replace my Beta (yes Beta) copy of "High Anxiety" this year, but it isn't out on DVD yet. Mind you, I love buying series on DVD.
- VHS tape is cheap compared to RW DVD. That will change too.
- Although DVD players are cheaper than VHS machines, DVD recorders are still more expensive, and tend to be more format specific (+ or -). A high-end digital VHS (which is a must for high definition recording) still can use VHS or SVHS tapes. Sure DVD recorders for computers are cheap, but capture cards still run quite a bit more than even a good VHS recorder
- Try as I might, I have never seen a VHS tape recorded one place that won't work on any other VHS player from the same country.

[lordsmurf]

- Tapes cost more than discs.
- I deal with tapes DAILY that won't play on machines other than the recording one. This is more of a problem in LP and EP mode more than SP.

[Capmaster]

VHS still leads in record time. 6-8 hours on a VHS tape is nothing. If you like changing discs every 1-2 hours, be my guest. That will change as DL, Blu-Ray and HD come onto the market.

Apples and oranges. The "standard" record time for a VHS tape is 2 hours (SP = "standard play"). Just like a DVD.

You can bump the VHS tape speed down and get 6 or 8 hours on it. But you take an enormous quality hit.

You can also bump down your bitrate on the capture and get 6 hours on a DVD, with a quality hit as well. I'd still rather have a DVD recorded in the 6-hour mode than the same length recording on a VHS. Both blow goat kielbasa, but at least the DVD won't blow even worse in two years, or five years, like a tape will

[lordsmurf]

I will say that at least an EP/SLP mode VHS recording retains full interlaced specs. The DVD really gets butchered past 4 hours, much worse than any tape could do.

[vhelp]

I think the best alternative is to just keep them on DV tapes.

But, if you have a DVD burner, you could just dump the DV (after
you dump the DV source .AVI file to your HD) source files to your
DVD burner as pure DV .AVI files. And, at 13gig / hr, you are
talking roughly 3 DVD-R (or RW's)

There's no other alternative (ie, archiving them to Huffy or MJPEG
or other codec) because these are just too big. Plus, you will be
compressing the DV to one of these codecs, which alters video quality
to an extent.
.
But, when one does opt towards this route, it's always best to NOT
do any filtering or resizing what-so-ever. You always want to
maintain "originality" in your source files.. once filtered, it's
forgotten.

I also prefer to just encode my projects using CBR mode (instead
of the VBR modes) My reasons are simple. Weather CCE or TMPG, it
just doesn't spread the bitrate at just the right moment during
those fast scenes, etc. It's usually just too low. And, to be
quite frank, the moment is DVD. Its here ta stay. What I'm saying
is this.. You got a 1 hour tv show that you want in as best quality
as you can, specifically to be a duplicate of what you captured on
the TV (though thats not possible w/ CCE or TMPG at the moment of
today) you could use for instance 9k (as I do) and fill the DVD disk
to 4.3 (if that 1 hour tv show will actually fill it) or you may
not. But rest assure, that at 9k CBR, you'll get as close to the
TV show you captured, as possible (with CBR) but NOT with VBR.
.
Course, its another thing, when one wants to fit say, 5 hrs of TV
series (ie, 10 half hour episodes of Friends) on one DVD disk.
That's another ball game though, but that's what lots of people do
here
But, don't expect the quality to match that of the TV, unless the
source is prestine (and that means no macro blocks or whatever else
there is these days) from your TV sources quality (be it Cable or
Digital Cable or Satellite) We all know how pixelated these sources
are these days, which is why I dropped Satellite all together, and
went to back Antenna But, the quality is zero macro blocks, though
the noise from the areal is not too back on some days

You were right, in that VHS (and LD's) do not have ANY macro blocks,
if they are Commerical Movies. However, if you recorded to any of
these VHS tapes, anything Digital (ie, dig Cable or Satellite) then
this will not hold true. You're VHS tapes will have macro blocks
in them, because of what the source had already inside the signal.

I would keep your DV tapes (assuming you mean that you take home
footage on DV)
If you are recording TV shows and things onto DV tapes, then that is
pretty much a waist, if your source is anything Digital (above)
not to mention the color space for DV.

Cheers,
-vhelp

[Nilfennasion]

The best case that can be made for DVD is that once you have a copy that is properly reflective of the DV source tape, the DVD will last you forever if all goes well, and can be constantly copied to other DVDs if all doesn't.

[chas0039]

You guys all missed the best advantage... when you turn off the machine and come back in 2 days to continue it is always right at the spot you left it so you don't have to search and remember where you stopped watching.

[jimmalenko]

You guys all missed the best advantage... when you turn off the machine and come back in 2 days to continue it is always right at the spot you left it so you don't have to search and remember where you stopped watching.

That could be said about both VHS and DVD, couldn't it ?

[lordsmurf]

You guys all missed the best advantage... when you turn off the machine and come back in 2 days to continue it is always right at the spot you left it so you don't have to search and remember where you stopped watching.

My DVD player does this. I can hit STOP or POWER OFF and it's still there, simply by pressing play (will power on if off).

[Noek]

small compact media vs. large bulky media = no contest

[chobo321321]

VHS owns DVD in terms of durability. You can drop a VHS tape, kick it around, have little kids handle it, and it will still work alright. Do any of the above to a DVD, and pray it still works.

[Nilfennasion]

VHS tape cannot handle contact with oxygen. How's that for durable?

[chobo321321]

It's not exposed unless you open it up. A DVD is always vunerable. I've worked in a library, and they stopped ordering kiddy DVD's because after a few weeks they get ruined whereas the VHS ones have lasted for years. Hows that for durable

[thecoalman]

It's not exposed unless you open it up. A DVD is always vunerable. I've worked in a library, and they stopped ordering kiddy DVD's because after a few weeks they get ruined whereas the VHS ones have lasted for years. Hows that for durable

Ever here of a disc copier You could make an exact copy of the DVD 20 years from now but are you going to get an exact copy of the VHS that you have now?

[Cole]

I want to firstly say that I am with DVDs now, I only buy VHS if I find one that is not available on DVD or find an old one in a charity shop or so on and it will get converted to DVD-R anyway.

However, there is one thing that VHS has over digital media; repair. Years ago a VHS copy got caught in the machine but I was able to open the VHS up, and spice the thing back toghether again. It wasn't perfect but it worked (not sure if it still does now though re: the oxidisation comment above).

Recently I was at a friends house and he showed me a CD (basics are the same) where the silver layer had come away. Heaven knows how he managed to do it, but gone forever was the contained data.

I still use my VCR to record off air stuff to watch as it will be re-recorded over anyway and I don't really want to lash out money on more DVD hardware to record off air when the broadcast signal I receive is poor in the first place.

[thecoalman]

However, there is one thing that VHS has over digital media; repair. Years ago a VHS copy got caught in the machine but I was able to open the VHS up, and spice the thing back toghether again. It wasn't perfect but it worked (not sure if it still does now though re: the oxidisation comment above).
.

Which reminds me, CD's and DVD's can be repaired providing the damage isn't severe. There's a store near here that sells used CD's, he has thousands of them and everyone of them is in pristine condition. Needless to say he does a booming business, can't go wrong at $4 or $5 for an original CD. He even provides a service for restoring CD's, they look like brand new when you get them back.

[RottenFoxBreath]

it could also be added that the audio capability of dvds is better than video,5.1,foreign languages,DTS,etc.
whereas a retail video will mostly be presented in dolby surround.
mind you,there are a few videos i have that arent on dvd yet,so ill still be using svhs/vhs players for a while.

[rhegedus]

Simplicity?

Anyone can press PLAY, REC, FFW, RW or PAUSE.

Show my dad a DVD menu and he gets freaked.

[Capmaster]

VHS owns DVD in terms of durability. You can drop a VHS tape, kick it around, have little kids handle it, and it will still work alright. Do any of the above to a DVD, and pray it still works.

Once they get the door open on a VHS tape and get their fat, sticky, probing little fingers behind that tape and give it a tug, it's not a sight for the faint of heart

I don't think little kids and media mix .....ANY media

[vhelp]

You guys all missed the best advantage... when you turn off the machine and come back in 2 days to continue it is always right at the spot you left it so you don't have to search and remember where you stopped watching.

That could be said about both VHS and DVD, couldn't it ?

.
.

LOL - My Pioneer CLD-D701 Laserdisc player does this too :P :P
I can power off, and the next day, when I press Power On, it goes back to
the last scene, hehe

-vhelp