Blue-ray and Microsoft

[JohnnyCNote]

Blu-ray group gets behind Microsoft tech

Backers of the Blu-ray DVD format are adopting Microsoft's video compression technology, giving the software giant a secure foothold in each of the two major camps battling to establish a successor to DVDs.

[freestyler]

Sweet. HD WM9 goodness!

[Nilfennasion]

Oh god, please no... a HD-DVD format that doesn't work when you put it in the player?

We can count on this failing, at least... there is no way the MPAA is going to let something as demonstratably insecure as Microsoft programming get onto their format.

[ianmcv]

All new stand alone players will now be fitted with Ctrl, Alt and Del buttons.

[freestyler]

If you have a capable pc you can download samples

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/ContentShowcase.aspx

I can't wait to hear how much footage they will be able to fit on a bluray disc using Microsoft's excellent compression technology

[vitualis]

Microsoft's codec is excellent Nilfennasion.

Need I remind you, that the DivX 3.11 codec is in fact a hacked Microsoft codec and it wasn't until the DivX 5.x family that the non-pirated DivX codec caught up to this old dinosaur.

I think your Microsoft prejudices are clouding your judgement...

Regards.

[Sasha]

Nilfennasion, actually the MPAA is behind Microsoft because of DRM. And while DRM was a bit of a nightmare in the Extreme Edition of T2 (I believe DRM wasn't on the second DVD), the current WM9 titles have DRM on the disk.

I may be wrong, but consider the video quality of 8-9 Mbps VC9/WM9 has been stated to be better than 28.2 Mbps MPEG-2, I'll give it a whirl. I would much rather get 4-6 hours of HD on a Blu-Ray single-sided disk than 2.

[Nilfennasion]

I think an astute author put it best when he said that the day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck, they'll be making vacuum cleaners. I've been working around their kludges for over a decade now. One device that demonstrates Microsoft's reliability quite well was the Sega Dreamcast, which Windows CE made a real pleasure to run. I once contacted Ozisoft, Sega's Australian distributor, to complain that my Dreamcast frequently refused to run software that I'd paid a lot of money for. I even photographed a few disc surfaces when they tried to tell me it was because my discs were scratched. Microsoft musn't have thought much of CE's reliability, either, since they have renamed it about half a dozen times. Last I heard, Bill won't even use it.

Or to put it the way KMFMS puts it:

Common Defenses of Microsoft Debunked

"Microsoft is ahead because their products are superior"

Microsoft's products are generally not superior. As an example, Windows is more bloated, much less stable, less secure, much more expensive, and lacking much of the capabilities of Linux, one of its competing operating systems. The real reason that Microsoft is ahead is that their marketing is superior and because they leverage their existing market share to keep consumers locked into Microsoft specific solutions.

[Gee... a games machine software that crashes every time you try to use it AS PER THE INSTRUCTIONS? Could it be that they saw someone they might have to try to compete with in the future...?]

"Microsoft should not be punished for its success"

Of course it shouldn't be punished for its success, but it should be punished for using predatory practices to out muscle competition in a way that would not be possible if they did not have their monopoly. The best way to punish Microsoft is to use the alternatives to their products. A fringe benefit of using alternatives is that you will generally end up with much better software.

Could it be that my judgement is actually uncloded enough that I can see the value of a parallel market?

[vitualis]

Let's get back to the issue at hand.

Microsoft's codec is excellent. Your crap about Microsoft instability has nothing to do with the codec and you trying to bridge the two issues is illogical.

The Microsoft codec has actually been accepted in both HD-DVD and Blue-Ray.

As for Windows CE, I've used it since Windows CE 1.0. It's a great operating system for mobile devices and realistically as stable as the competition (except EPOC ). Palm is just as unstable as Windows CE. Microsoft's problem is that the Windows Mobile shell (which sits on top of Windows CE) is somewhat buggy. Windows CE/Windows CE.Net itself is actually pretty stable.

As for renaming it, there is something called marketing. Windows Mobile 2003 sounds better than Windows CE.NET 4.2 + Windows Mobile shell.

Regards.

[Nilfennasion]

One of the many reasons why DVD-Video has taken off while DVD-ROM still remains a curious extra is because in the former case, people can push a disc into a drive and expect it to work every time. When you press the On button, a DVD player does more or less exactly what it is expected to do, copyright notices and content-mapping issues notwithstanding. To date, I have never seen a Microsoft device that this could be said of. I persisted for quite a long time with two games machines that ran Microsoft software, and to say that the experience left me horrified that Microsoft want to expand beyond the PC is an understatement.

Insult me all you like for having the sense to make up my mind based on experiences, but I am not budging so much as a milimeter from this position. Microsoft have no place in my home entertainment system.

[adam]

One of the many reasons why DVD-Video has taken off while DVD-ROM still remains a curious extra is because in the former case, people can push a disc into a drive and expect it to work every time. When you press the On button, a DVD player does more or less exactly what it is expected to do, copyright notices and content-mapping issues notwithstanding. To date, I have never seen a Microsoft device that this could be said of.

Because windows has to support a hell of alot more then one program. DVD is a worldwide standard. Every manufacturer is working off the same exact document. Its standardized...that's the point. It is not at all the same for computers.

How many different hardware manufacturers are there? How many versions of how many programs exist? You expect an os to support every single combination perfectly? Its an entirely unreasonble request...and you know what? Windows with all the latest upgrades installed actually does a pretty damn good job of it.

As for your problems with DreamCast, could it not have been defect related? Could it not have been user error? DreamCast didn't make it, but I have never heard of people having any problems getting it to run correctly. DC is still considered by many to be one of the best consoles ever released.

[Gillies]

i agree with Nilfennasion in some aspects. i have an xbox and it works like half the time... very buggy. however im sure the MS codec should run fine. but my main concern is microsoft getting their hands into another market. dont they have enough money already? plus what are the bluray and dvd forum groups thinking. they could use a free codec like xvid and not have to pay a cent. they could probably add drm (if the licence aloows them) on top of it. having said that, i'v never used the wm9 codec so i cant comment on whether it is a better format.

[vitualis]

They wouldn't touch XviD because there is no corporate backing. The codec is in perpectual beta without a clearly fixed end point. Blu-Ray/HD-DVD are consumer media products and need to have clear defined standards. If no one can say that "this" codec will be exactly like "this", behave like "that", require "xyz" requirements to decode and will be supported for the next "x" number of years, then it wouldn't make a good standard.

And there is of course the issue of profit. Microsoft can pretty much ensure that most new PCs (and current PCs though an update) will have all the required software to create suitable video in the required format. A pretty big plus and a good sales point for a recordable disc format.

DivX has the best chance of getting recognised as a standard with their certification program, but they still face the problem that their certification requirements are pretty much below that of the commonly used features in their codec (e.g., GMC, QPel).

As for "DVD-ROM" not taking off???? What a weird thing to say. DVD-ROM is just a storage medium. It would be like saying hard disc drives haven't taken off. They are not OS specific and I don't see what they have to do with Microsoft at all.

And for consoles, none of my friends have any particular problems with their X-Boxes. You put in the disc and it works. On occasion there may be a problem but that is generally an issue of the quality of the programming of the game (something that Microsoft does not have a hand in). These same problems occur on other consoles as well like a PS2. And I agree with adam's comments about the Dreamcast. It is considered by many as one of the best consoles ever made -- and I credit that to Sega. Microsoft simply provided the base OS and as I said before, there is nothing in particular that is wrong with Windows CE.

As for Microsoft entering "yet another market", yes that may be a problem. Something you Americans should consider in your worship of Capitalism... However, state the problem as is. If you think that MS is a big evil corporation that shouldn't have any more influence in society, then just say so. Spouting meaningless FUD about MS is as bad as MS using FUD against its competitors.

Regards.

[Sasha]

i agree with Nilfennasion in some aspects. i have an xbox and it works like half the time... very buggy. however im sure the MS codec should run fine. but my main concern is microsoft getting their hands into another market. dont they have enough money already? plus what are the bluray and dvd forum groups thinking. they could use a free codec like xvid and not have to pay a cent. they could probably add drm (if the licence aloows them) on top of it. having said that, i'v never used the wm9 codec so i cant comment on whether it is a better format.

X-Box has working 100% for me until lightning hit it. Must have been Sony lightning, hehe. Anyway, it was covered under a Best Buy replacement plan and the replacement unit has work 100%. No bugs in my experience.

BTW, I believe the public CODEC is VC-9, and free for the most part. Microsoft's implementation of VC-9 is referred to as WM9. And while I have not (yet) authored with either WM9/VC9, I have been playing their WM( high-definition snippets on my new PC with terrific results.

[burnman99]

I'm going to have to agree with Nilfennasion. Although i have no issues with the quality of wm 9, i don't think it's much, or any better than real player 10 quicktime mp4 or even divx/xvid at the same bitrate. Moreover, bringing Microsoft into the entertainment field can only be a bad thing. Microsoft has a track record of running off the competition, then no longer updating their product, (see IE 6) or will finally update it after a great deal of noise is made. I'm guessing they will want "Only Microsoft Approved" players or such or require some "Activation" to get the movie to play. Thank God they didn't win the .mp3/.wma battle or there'd be no mp3 players.

My 2 cents.

Have fun stormin' the castle!

Rog

[vitualis]

The Microsoft codec is one of several that can be put onto a disc. Microsoft dominance is far from total... yet.

And I agree that the Microsoft codec is probably no better in terms of quality than its contemporaries. And yet, WHY does both the HD-DVD backers AND Blu-Ray are willing to include it in their specifications?

You can't argue that Microsoft knows how to market and position themselves. Microsoft has made a pretty good video codec and they have weaseled themselves into a position where they can gain market share and a lot of profit...

As for "agreeing" with Nilfennasion, what exactly are you agreeing with? That the codec will lead to unstable players?

Regards.

[freestyler]

Looks like the most noise comes from users who know nothing about the codec and base their views on the assumption that Microsoft is bent on world domination, yet they are posting this from Windows PCs and running all their video hardware and software on it, too.



Conspiracy theories aside, what can you contribute with regards to the actual codec, and blu-ray? Keep in mind that at the moment all this blu-ray stuff is in Japan and is slowly migrating towards the video professional market, probably a few years before it hits consumers and becomes a viable medium for hobbyists. I like the WM9 / VC-9 whatever codec because it will hold a hell of a lot more than MPEG2 will and has much better compression!

[burnman99]

I agree with several things Nilfennasion says, specifically:

I. Microsoft's products are generally not superior. As an example, Windows is more bloated, much less stable, less secure, much more expensive, and lacking much of the capabilities of Linux, one of its competing operating systems. The real reason that Microsoft is ahead is that their marketing is superior and because they leverage their existing market share to keep consumers locked into Microsoft specific solutions.

II. Of course it shouldn't be punished for its success, but it should be punished for using predatory practices to out muscle competition in a way that would not be possible if they did not have their monopoly. The best way to punish Microsoft is to use the alternatives to their products. A fringe benefit of using alternatives is that you will generally end up with much better software.

III. Microsoft have no place in my home entertainment system.

Am I some Microsoft-Hating Linux Person?! Not Hardly. I'm MCSE 2000 Certified and know what their many of their products can and cannot do. I do run Win2k on 2 of my machines, but will be putting Red Hat 9 on 1 to see what an open source OS can do.

Later!

Rog

[the future]

The only MS product that is probably the best in its specific area is Excel. Every other product has competition that is superior. Those who defend MS are mainly to lazy/cheap/biased/frightened/brainwashed to check out the competition.

As for Blu-Ray, there are 3 codecs accepted, mpeg-2, vc-1 (aka vc-9 aka wmv) and h.264 (mpeg-4). Sony leads the Blu-Ray group, so if Blu-Ray becomes the next generation HD disc approved by Hollywood (and not HD-DVD, Blu-Rays rival), don't expect MS to dominate this area as well. It's completely up to the studios which codec they will use for pre-recorded material (aka movies), so if MS tries to milk them too hard for VC-1 license fees, they will just use h.264.

[adam]

I don't see anyone in this thread, or really in any other, truly defending Microsoft. I think Vitualis and I are mainly just trying to stop the blind and baseless hating of MS for no real reason, and the blaming of every little problem on the os.

Its annoying when someone simply posts a press release like this and we have to read through people bashing MS for [insert world problem here].

[JohnnyCNote]

It's not as if most of them haven't already made their opinions clear many times before......

[tmw]

How many different hardware manufacturers are there? How many versions of how many programs exist? You expect an os to support every single combination perfectly? Its an entirely unreasonble request...and you know what?

I thought your statement was highly applicable to DVD Players, (and in the future Blu-Ray / HD-DVD) and movie creators, as well as computers and programs. How many different manufacturers create DVD players? I think it's even larger than the number of computers. And if you include DVD capable computers in the catagory of DVD players... and home movies in with studio productions.

They wouldn't touch XviD because there is no corporate backing. The codec is in perpectual beta without a clearly fixed end point. Blu-Ray/HD-DVD are consumer media products and need to have clear defined standards.

How is this any different than wmv codecs, or any other MS product? MS expects you to upgrade on a regular basis. They use the term Beta as a marketing gimmac. Try to get support for Win 98, which was standard about 5 years ago. Good luck. Try to find MS support for Sharp g.726 mpeg4 audio codec? It used to be a standard, but is no longer included on new machines.

My concern is that the "corporate backing" will actually cause many issues. In theory, MS might want me to go out and buy all new movies, because my old ones don't work with the new O/S. Want to try to copy them to the new format? Sorry, but MS has DRM that won't allow that, just like macrovision prevents people from copying their VHS movies onto a DVD.

One of the benefits of the consortium concept was that it looked out for the user, rather than the shareholder.

On the positive side, the MS (potentially predatory) practices do produce an industry standard... and the codec does work well.

[adam]

I thought your statement was highly applicable to DVD Players, (and in the future Blu-Ray / HD-DVD) and movie creators, as well as computers and programs. How many different manufacturers create DVD players? I think it's even larger than the number of computers. And if you include DVD capable computers in the catagory of DVD players... and home movies in with studio productions.

What does the number of dvd player manufacturers in the market have to do with anything? There may be many many companies that produce toothpicks, but that doesn't change the fact that a toothpick is functionally less complex then a computer, and easier to manufacture.

You totally missed the point here. It doesn't matter how many companies make dvd players, or even how many different companies make the components that go into each dvd player. The point is that the manufacturer chooses a specific combination of hardware, and then custom programs the firmware for that combination only. The firmware is not required to work on all other manufacturer's players, and it in fact won't even work on other models of players from that same manufacturer. A DVD player's firmware (os) is required to support one single combination of hardware, of the manufacturer's own choosing.

With a pc you've got 1 os that must work with anything the user chooses to put in their computer, while running any one of the millions of software programs available.

[vitualis]

@ tmw:

How many different hardware manufacturers are there? How many versions of how many programs exist? You expect an os to support every single combination perfectly? Its an entirely unreasonble request...and you know what?

I thought your statement was highly applicable to DVD Players, (and in the future Blu-Ray / HD-DVD) and movie creators, as well as computers and programs. How many different manufacturers create DVD players? I think it's even larger than the number of computers. And if you include DVD capable computers in the catagory of DVD players... and home movies in with studio productions.

As what adam said. You've missed the point. DVD players need only do one thing. The manufacturers just have to get the right combination of software and hardware so that it is capable of playing a DVD as per the set specifications. That is easy.

Making a general PC OS is hard as there is a vasy library of sofware out there as well as uncountable combinations of hardware that can go together. Windows has the best hardware support in general and for that, it is relatively stable too.

They wouldn't touch XviD because there is no corporate backing. The codec is in perpectual beta without a clearly fixed end point. Blu-Ray/HD-DVD are consumer media products and need to have clear defined standards.

How is this any different than wmv codecs, or any other MS product? MS expects you to upgrade on a regular basis. They use the term Beta as a marketing gimmac. Try to get support for Win 98, which was standard about 5 years ago. Good luck. Try to find MS support for Sharp g.726 mpeg4 audio codec? It used to be a standard, but is no longer included on new machines.

The difference is that Microsoft here is willing to back a codec that is completed. XviD is not completed and there is no end point in its development. Great for enthusiasts but not good for corporations. The Microsoft codec is finished. It may be crap compared to XviD 5 years from now, but it is more important for most people that something they make in 5 years time will still work in their old player.

BTW, you are missing the point entirely.

There is no reason the MS codec is any better than a number of other commercial codecs. The same argument on why the MS codec would be chosen over DivX or XviD commercially can be applied to the Nero codec, the Apple codec, etc. These codecs have commercial backing. XviD does not.

My concern is that the "corporate backing" will actually cause many issues. In theory, MS might want me to go out and buy all new movies, because my old ones don't work with the new O/S. Want to try to copy them to the new format? Sorry, but MS has DRM that won't allow that, just like macrovision prevents people from copying their VHS movies onto a DVD.

A valid concern. That is hardly a reason that would disuade the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray groups from adopting the codec though. I would have though generating new sales from old content is an incentive for the corporate world.

One of the benefits of the consortium concept was that it looked out for the user, rather than the shareholder.

You naive fool. It looks out for the industry, not the consumer. If it looked out for the consumer then it would be on a forum or committee basis with consumer group representatives.

On the positive side, the MS (potentially predatory) practices do produce an industry standard... and the codec does work well.

Agreed. Though as many people here have stated, I can think of better and more opens standards. Capitalism does not always work the way you want it to.


@ burnman99:

. Microsoft's products are generally not superior. As an example, Windows is more bloated, much less stable, less secure, much more expensive, and lacking much of the capabilities of Linux, one of its competing operating systems. The real reason that Microsoft is ahead is that their marketing is superior and because they leverage their existing market share to keep consumers locked into Microsoft specific solutions.

"Superior" is very much like the word "best". It rather depends on your parameters of measure.

Bloated: yes Windows is more bloated than Linux in a sense. In another sense, Linux is bloated too -- the last time I installed Mandrake, I ended up with several text editors, several window management programs, several email applications, several calculators, etc.

Less stable: yes, the Linux core is more stable. On the other hand, start installing some of the multimedia type hardware onto your PC and Windows will tend to have more stable drivers and software than Linux. Linux can and does crash just as ungracefully as Windows.

Expensive: yes, Linux is cheaper/free, but Windows has "historical advantage" in terms of user experience. If it takes me hours to learn how to do something in Linux, those are hours I could have done something else. Time is money too you know.

Capabilities of Linux: ... two edged sword. There are some "capabilities" of Windows that aren't in Linux either (e.g., native professional software like Photoshop).

The "real" reason Microsoft is ahead is not just because of marketing. The "real" reason is that they have an operating system is is usable and accessible to just about everyone and the "historical advantage" that most people have used Windows before. If marketing was everything, we'll all be using Macs.

The best way to punish Microsoft is to use the alternatives to their products. A fringe benefit of using alternatives is that you will generally end up with much better software.

I generally agree. However, people will only switch to alternatives when it is actually better.

For example, Firefox IMHO beats IE in just about every way (except obviously for ActiveX). OpenOffice is good but compared to OfficeXP it is crude and appears unfinished.

III. Microsoft have no place in my home entertainment system.

I generally agree though only because at the moment they don't make anything better than what I'm using.

I prefer MP3 to WMA because it is unrestricted and better supported in hardware with better control in encoding in software. I prefer DivX/XviD to WMV for pretty much the same reason.

Regards.

[freestyler]

Excellent post Vitualis. I personally can't wait for more news about this wonderful codec.

On a side note, but totally related to this topic - what ever happened to the HD-DVD authoring package that Sonic was releasing which included support for this VC9 / WM9 spec? I heard about that quite some time ago... not sure if anything ever became of it?

Must still be awaiting the sorting out of the new specs for HD-DVD or Bluray?

[proxyx99]

Some Microsoft haters need to get a grip. Whatever Microsoft has done and is doing now is no different from what other companies do, and that is: protect their business. In that sense every business and every interest group is evil, even your local shoemaker, just ask him for directions to another shoemaker's shop, you'll surely get what you want...

There is a lot of muscle, tremendous cash reserves and brain power in every Microsoft's new venture. With that combination it is usually more then probable that whatever they do will be a success (although as history shows not always). This is what businesses do, business owners dream of, and Microsoft with Bill Gates is no different.

Since Microsoft, thanks to their own ingenuity, gained almost monopolistic position in the market place, some think that they owe something to the public. They owe nothing other then being true to their own calling.

No wonder that little guys are nicer, products cheaper, appearing to be like a slice of fresh bread from your favourite local bakery. That is the nature of being an underdog. You have to do that to gain market share.

No one forces anyone to buy anything from Microsoft. But we (almost) all do. Nothing wrong about it. If you prefer command line screen go with Linux. That will surely make your life easier. "Bloated" means having lots of safeguards, aimed at an average Joe and even grandma. Drop this and you will be at mercy of books, manuals, endless support calls and always busy friends. Are Apple, Oracle, IBM products, in that sense, really any different from MIcrosoft? IBM has had their shot with OS2, nobody remembers that today.

Microsoft has created a computing (and not only) environment the way they see it, which may not be exactly what you envision. Is it perfect? Hell, no, but who cares. Their ideas are adopted all over the world for the sake of simplicity, uniformity and what goes with it convenience. That is why we buy Microsoft. Are others delivering always perfect products?

20 years ago I sat at my first IBM barely knowing what I can do with it. Now we all enjoy the benefits of universal and omnipresent computing. There is a lot of truth in calling it (how true...) information technology. It has tremendously, on an unprecedented scale contributed to allowing easy access to information, in whatever shape or form. And for that I'm very grateful to people like Gates and companies like Microsoft. They deserve every bit of the rewards they enjoy. They may and should serve as a shining example of what can be accomplished in a single lifetime (if you start early enough). For some, dreams do come true... and that is very encouraging.

Lastly, the balance of good vs. bad is so much in the positive territory, with respect to Microsoft, that I easily forgive them all their sins.

[Gillies]

i dont think microsoft has had an original idea in their entire history. they take other ppls ideas and sell them as there own. the first deal bill gates made, he sold software to ibm he didnt even own. wm9, im sure is just a rip off of mpeg-4.

[freestyler]

There's a difference between buying people out and "taking their ideas." Those ideas would probably otherwise never have seen the light of day.

Will this Microsoft bashing ever stop? It's a codec, people

[the future]

This thread – like so many all over the net – just shows how true Roger Ebert's statement was/is: "Since any reasonable person would choose a Mac over a PC, Apple's market share does provide us with an accurate reading of the percentage of reasonable people in our society."

[Capmaster]

I'd better watch this thread carefully for a flame war to break out. I see it coming

Here - I'll flame myself so nobody gets a yellow card:

"PCs are for sheep - people who can't think for themselves"

or -----

"Macs are Fisher Price baby machines, like hardware AOL"

There. Now maybe we won't have any flaming