You asked for it:Originally Posted by FredThompson
First read my previous post, then:
One more strike against NTSC: IRE levels, in other words constant problems with black level bug depending on eqipment. No such issues in PAL.
Hmmm, let me think, oh here's one more: Drop- and Non-Drop Frame time code - big pain in the ss. No such issues in PAL.
NTSC may win the popular vote, but it doesn't make it a good video format. Just like with the presidential election...
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1. i like PAL also --- except the frame rate
you get used to it though ...
2. in a theater, yes it is 24fps, but a two bladed shutter is used , so its quasi 48 fps -- many people don't realize this.. some projectors use a double speed single blade and there are also 3 blade shutters. We use higher true film fps in our theaters (30fps - 60 fps).
Some crap cinema projectors flicker a lot - yes ..
HD 24fps with added pulldown is displayed on HDTV's at 23.976 progressive, the pulldown is removed. In my opinion, HD standard should have been 30fps... looks a lot better. The HD we pump out is 30 fps progressive mostly quite a diff..."Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
Originally Posted by BJ_M
Originally Posted by BJ_M
I hope that makes it a little more clear as to what I was trying to say. I know it's going out of topic, but any more suggestions/guesses/clarifications?
P.S.: I realize that all those "fields per second" numbers I was talking about in progressive world would become full frames. Though they'd still essentially play the role of the fields in interlaced world - simply to increase the refresh rate. Of course I could be wrong... -
i don't feel like typing the whys of some HD play back appearance .. we are pretty close in opinion anyway -- :
dropframe/NDF is indeed a royal pain in the ass..
IRE levels are not to bad to deal with .."Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
BJ_M:
I have always thought that HDTV's could not display video with a refresh rate of 23.976, like DVD's for example; they have 23.976 fps internally, but I have always read that the video is refreshed at 54.94 full frames per second, and not 23.976 or 47.952 fps... can you please tell me if there are HDTV's that can indeed play videos using a refresh rate of 23.976 or 47.952? (Yes, I AM a newbie in this matter... ) -
video projectors anyway - at least the ones i use ..
"Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
SECAM. The best system ever
(hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi hi)La Linea by Osvaldo Cavandoli
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Excellent work, BJ_M. Even though this is an old post, I just came across it today. I downloaded your clip and tried it out on Main Concept. I don't know what DV codec you used, but Main Concept doesn't like it. It encoded it @ 5x RT, it normally encodes @ 1.7x RT on my old AMD XP 1700. I wonder if the codec effected the output Quality.
Nice transition from map image to ships image. Definetly a workout for any encoder. All encoders are compromisers and I believe what won out on one frame, may not win out on another frame.
Now to add more fuel to the fire. I took a frame grab comparison of two encoders on my system. The source video is a 3D animation rendered in Uncompressed RGB (720 x 480). They were fed directly to both encoders, without using frame servers or filters. Both were encoded with 1-pass VBR @ 8500 high, 6000 avg. I cropped to accentuate the differences. I also encluded a frame grab of the uncompressed RGB for reference.
Procoder - 2
Main Concept 1.4.2
Source - uncompressed RGB
As you can see, Procoder had a very hard time on the flipping page. Main Concept is virtualy indistingwishable from the source.
In all fairness, Procoder does a good job of all the other frames, just not this one. On the other side of the coin, Main Concept does a great job with all frames. Of course they both look great when played.
I don't think anyone can really judge an encoder by one frame, but it's great to look at.Got my retirement plans all set. Looks like I only have to work another 5 years after I die........ -
Originally Posted by SatStorm
Capturing SECAM is another challenge as there are not that many cards and boxes that can do it in color. I like miroVIDEO DC30+ for capturing SECAM into PAL files. And now I have a multi-system Toshiba D-R1 DVD recorder and I can capture original high quality SECAM broadcasts into sparkling PAL DVD's! :P -
Any chance of running Mainconcept 2-pass? Mediastudio Pro just implemented 2-pass encoding. Does Premiere let you do a 2-pass with its version of Mainconcept?
Your miserable life is not worth the reversal of a Custer decision. -
I have been doing my own MPEG2 encoder test myself but with an animation I made in flash then converted to an avi. I tested three encoders so far and they are: CCE Basic 2.69 Demo, TMPGEnc 2.5 Demo and ProCoder 1.25 Demo. I set them all as 2 PASS @ 9000 max and 6000 Average. The download is 20mb if you would like to see the results. If anyone has tips on encoding 2D animation to DVD, that would be great.
Download Results Here
Oh and the frame rate is not 29.97, it's at 10. -
Originally Posted by Sillyname
the main concept tests were at both 2 pass and 1 pass and are marked"Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
Originally Posted by J. Baker
CCE Basic 2.69 Demo, TMPGEnc 2.5 Demo and ProCoder 1.25 Demo are all old products and no longer demo products for some time .. specially procoder 1.25 , that is really old ..
computer animation is not a very good test for mpeg encoding if it is cartoon type animation , its particle effects with gradients that are the torture tests .."Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
Just when I was about to jump on Procoder bandwagon, it did some thing very strange. I encoded a 40-minute analog capture last night and found out that Procoder produced several garbage frames. I say garbage because that's what they are, hardly viewable and everything was screwed up in the frame. I checked the source frames and they looked all right.
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Originally Posted by BJ_M
As for testing mpeg with 2D animation... I know it's not the best for it but I do believe it's good to test it with. It really shows which of the encoders has the most flaws. Everything you don't see in a regular movie that shows up in a 2D computer animation is taking the detail away from your regular movie. That's why I'm testing it this way. -
procoder has been on version 2 for about 6 months - they dont sell version 1.5 any more . 1.25 is about 2 years old .. i looked at the canopus web site and they dont have a demo for procoder anyway ..
cce is 2.7 now , 2.7 has huge changes in it -- it really should be called 3.0
tmpgenc is 3 for the pro version .... 2.59 is the free version ..."Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
Just a quick note, but don't film projectors actually STOP the film for a 24th of a second (going basic here), unlike TV which has to draw/scan across the TV (or monitor) screen losing TIME because of the scanning lines..plus of course the little BUT NOT INCONSIDERABLE fact of interlaced FIELDS?
Which leads to a BIG difference between TV and FILM frame rates due to the fact that each frame of a 'celluoid' movie is TRULY projected onto a screen 'all in one go' as opposed to a TV's NOT IN ONE GO due to scanning/interlace fields and therefore TIME?
TV and pc 'pictures' are a nothing but a trick of the eye....argue as much as you want but thats the truth. Film pictures are also a trick, but not quite as much.....(no lingering phosphors to fool the brain). -
very good topic of discussion and comments. very informative.
just a quick question on tmpgenc GOP structure and configuration. The NTSC DVD setting default is 1-5-2 (IBP) and 18 MAX number of frames. On lordsmurf's website he recommends a GOP of 1-3-2 (IBP) and 15 MAX GOP. First, will this settting allow for playback on all DVD players? second, what does tweaking to this setting do for me? I am wondering if these knds of tweaks make a difference in the results from the encoder tests.
thanks. -
Less GOP stracture no problem.
NTSC can be 18 max, PAL 15 max for 100% combatibility.
Many (if not most) DVD standalones don't care about this DVD specifics limitationLa Linea by Osvaldo Cavandoli
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Originally Posted by SatStorm
it true -- many players dont care about specs to much , some will play high bit rate and some non standard gop .... but not all players of course.."Each problem that I solved became a rule which served afterwards to solve other problems." - Rene Descartes (1596-1650) -
Originally Posted by thor300
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Originally Posted by State Of Mind
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You cannot remove noise without removing detail. That's why you use a sharpening filter (a very efficient one) to compensate. The best way is to not have noise in your source video. I am the pickiest guy in the world about quality and the various things that effect it, but sometimes you just have to face the facts. I had to.
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Originally Posted by Edmund Blackadder
Perhaps you could tell me what equipment and which formats I have. No? I didn't think so.
Again, frame rate is better with NTSC. Your continual assumption that all source starts with film is ludicrous. Shoot PAL and NTSC of the same live action source. Which better represents motion? NTSC. Why? Frame rate. -
Originally Posted by FredThompson
Originally Posted by FredThompson
Originally Posted by FredThompson
So what else do you got to say in your self defence Fred? Just remember, you're not going to win this argument.
P.S.: Just to stay on topic, ProCoder 1.5 is still the best DV to MPEG2 encoder. -
Originally Posted by FredThompson
P.S.: If you'd like to post the list of your equipment please do so, including the camera models, TV's and types of connections. If you want to try to prove your point you've got to present a little more than what you've shown us so far. -
Originally Posted by Edmund Blackadder
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