Jerky playback with vcd

[beth1949]

Thanks for trying to help me. Unfortunately when I click on the link you provided, I get a message about not having premission to access the site. Not sure why this is, but I tried it 3 times.

[deckard8]

Sometimes I've found it better to burn to cdrw instead of cdr, as these seems to be read easier on fussy players.

[vcd4ever]

Thanks for trying to help me. Unfortunately when I click on the link you provided, I get a message about not having premission to access the site. Not sure why this is, but I tried it 3 times.

I don't know yet why it didn't work, but i have moved the files to the webserver for you to try again. Try this link http://pmk.dynip.com:2222 and hopefully this will work. If this doesn't work i will move the files to another ftpserver.

Edit: I'm now using another ftpserver at ftp://pmk.dynip.com:2121 , so if the webserver doesn't work try the ftpserver again.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

I still couldn't get into the other ftp server even after disabling my firewall thinking that might be the problem. When I clicked on the other link I get a page with 2 items. The bin file and the cue file. I clicked on the bin file first and I get a page that would not completely load even after 10 minutes. The cue file loaded immediately. Will try the bin file again, but question is what do I do after it loads? When you said download and burn, I guess expected to see a download dialogue or a download link. Is it maybe a copy/paste operation? If so would I do both files and paste to the same folder? Thanks.

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

I have now stored both files in a zipfile and this will get you the download dialogue box.
The ftpserver is offline so use the webserver at http://pmk.dynip.com:2222

vcd4ever.

[Panash]

beth1949,

Let me add support for vcd4ever, the simple answer is that TMPGenc DOES NOT produce fully complient MPEG.

I have been round this loop many times because my portable VCD player plays back TMPGenc encoded VCDs in much the same way as you describe and the only solution was simply to junk TMPGenc, which is a great shame because it is a truely great encoder which is let down by a very simple formatting fault in the actual data stream. If your equipment likes TMPGenc, that's ok, if it doesn't, that's tough. I don't know MPEG at binary so I don't know what the problem is.

Reporting this fault to the Honerable Hori San is rather like trying to piss in the wind.

I'm afraid its BBmpeg if you're honest & broke or Mainconcept, CCE or any of the others if otherwise.

And as mats.hogberg asserts in a slightly different way (if I understand him correctly), most DVD players will play almost any old crap you throw at them, you're just unlucky if yours doesn't. I've even put that "I will survive" video (the one eyed space alien singer) in mine & its played ok, bitrate 500KB/s rsolution 172 by 142 or something like that.

Portable players on the other hand, are a miracle of compact & efficient programming - its understandable that they will be dead sniffy about the complience of whats put in them. Unfortunatly your DVD player seems just as picky.

VCDeasy is a really good program. The Philips VCD software is hard & again picky about the complience of what its given. In a sense it provides a golden reference point for VCD2.0 complience. It will accept surprisingly few supposidly VCD compatable MPEG streams. I just don't understand why software writers don't use it as such.

My rant for the day over, I'm off to a dark room to lie down now, I feel much better.

PN

[beth1949]

I was able to download and burn the file. The picture is a bit better than I have been able to produce, but the jerky playback is still there. What does that tell you? And is there any hope for me being able to sucessfully burn a vcd.

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

This tells me that the playback problem is NOT caused by bad authoring or using a mpegfile that's not fully VCD2.0 compliant. The next step is now to determine if this jerky playback is bitrate related.

Any player that's supports playing VCD's should play VCD's encoded with the standard videobitrate of 1150Kbit without any playback problems...but i have read that some players only play VCD's encoded with a lower videobitrate than 1150Kbit without any playback problems.

I have never experienced any playback problems myself that has been caused by using a videobitrate of 1150Kbit...but it wouldn't surprise me if this problem exists because most players doesn't follow the VCD2.0 spec. I hope your willing to download and burn another VCD that has been authored with philips vcd2.0 toolkit.

The videobitrate used on this VCD is only 900Kbit and should be low enough to determine if this is the reason for the jerky playback. You can download the zipfile at http://pmk.dynip.com:2222 and i do believe that it's still hope for you to be able to sucessfully burn a vcd.

vcd4ever.

[Panash]

...or succesfully play a VCD?

I wonder if what you are seeing is an interlace issue. Talking PAL here ('cos I'm UK based), MPEG1 does not support interlace (this is one of the specific extensions of MPEG2 and its chief advantage). This means that the (if I can get this right) that the frame rate and the field rate are the same, ie 25 frames or fields per second, the second field is a duplicate of the first. In MPEG2 (with the vertical resolution = 576 or 480 for NTSC), the second field will be correctly temporally displaced by 1/50th of a second. The result is smooth, smooth motion. I do my DVD rips to VCD & home movies to SVCD (MPEG2) and the first thing that hits you is the luxurious smoothness.

I wonder if this explains your mystery?

PN

[johns0]

Sounds like its a media problem,if it plays on another dvd player with pixelations then its poorly burned and when played on the owners dvd player its very jerky thats another sign of a poor burn.Try different media.

[izzykatz]

had the same nitemare as u described from first post. I did not solve it yet, but i got some hints from tmpgenc forum , tried it and it seems to produce better results while played on the PC (and i remember ur first post...). :
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The only way you are going to acheive better quality output with this file is by raising the bitrate however this will increase the file size.
Consider creating a VCD rather than a SVCD. VCD is the same resolution as VHS so it makes sense and you will also be able to use a higher bitrate.
To get the best file size vs quality ratio you should use a VBR method of encoding. CQ is best, but the file size is unpredictable.
With 2 pass you can calculate the final output size using the wizard.


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izzy 08/20 (Fri) 15:35 ( ID:kzvseesqza2 ) [ Edit / Delete / Reply with quotation ]
Ashy -
I tried the vbr 2 pass and the cq and the cbr with higher bit rate - all give acceptable results when viewed on the pc monitor.
how will it be when seen on a tv screen played as vcd from a DVD player? should I use "center" or "full screen" or other setting?

Izzy


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ashy 08/22 (Sun) 17:29 ( IDd.oqrlav66 ) [ Edit / Delete / Reply with quotation ]
Normally I would use 'Fullscreen (keep aspect ratio)'


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izzy 08/24 (Tue) 04:01 ( ID:kzvseesqza2 ) [ Edit / Delete / Reply with quotation ]
>Normally I would use 'Fullscreen (keep aspect ratio)'

I tried all possibilities now. still i am not satisfied with the results - the vhs tape as viewed on tv screen is much much better then the best i can get on vcd type file.
can you suggest other possibility? you said before that svcd wont give much (the source is always old vhs tapes). mayby DVD format?

izzy


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ashy 08/24 (Tue) 11:21 ( ID:aa91hwfybyn ) [ Edit / Delete / Reply with quotation ]
Do you have a DVD burner?
To get the best then capture the VHS video at full DVD resolution. 704x480 for NTSC and 704x576 for PAL.
Then use the DVD template to encode it using VBR.
To be honest the quality is heavily reliant on the abilities of your capture device to produce a decent output. If the source capture is good enough then there is no reason why the final encoding shouldn't be good also.

I think your expecting too much from VHS captures as they will always look low quality because of the nature of the format. However they always look better when played back on a hardware player and a T.V. rather than a PC monitor.


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[mats.hogberg]

Consider creating a VCD rather than a SVCD. VCD is the same resolution as VHS so it makes sense and you will also be able to use a higher bitrate.

Utter crap. VCD has a fixed bit rate. With SVCD you can use higher bit rates.

/Mats

[beth1949]

Can't believe it! No jerky playback! I did have a couple of places where the picture kind of broke up into the blocks for a second, but if we now have the playback issue resolved with lower bitrate, could the noise blocks or pixalization be resolved as well? Don't want to get ahead of myself, but am really excited to think that I might be able to really do this. Do I lower the bitrate in tmpgenc? And how do I do this since everything seems to be fixed. Thank you for your time and I am really grateful for furthur instructions.

[mats.hogberg]

That's VCD for you. It's fixed at 1150 kbps. Lower it, and it won't be a VCD. But if it works OK on your player, and you're not concerned with compatibility with other players, go ahead. select the VCD tempalte as usual, but then load the "unlock" template - that lets you change the bit rate. But beware - the pixelization and blockiness you experience is caused by the low bit rate!

/Mats

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

900Kbit is not enough videobitrate for getting god quality on VCD's. The only way to get god quality is to use a higher videobitrate. The next step now is to find out the highest videobitrate that can be used without causing jerky playback on your player.

I have authored 2 new VCD's with philips vcd2.0 toolkit, one with a videobitrate of 1000Kbit, and the other with a videobitrate of 1100Kbit. The VCD's can be downloaded at http://pmk.dynip.com:2222 and hopefully one or both VCD's will play without jerky playback.

The quality depends on the videobitrate...and by testing these 2 VCD's it will tell us if your player can play VCD's with enough videobitrate for getting god quality.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

I burned the 1100 bit vcd first and there was no jerky playback and very little pixalization, so I did not bother to burn the 1000 unless you think I should. Since a regular vcd is 1150 bitrate, I'm wondering if it's possble to do one at 1125 and see if that works. If not, 1100 is pretty darn good. So - what's next? And thanks again for taking the time to help me out.

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

I have a VCD 1125 ready for downloading at http://pmk.dynip.com:2222 and if this VCD doesn't work then we now that the max bitrate that can be used is 1100.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

1125 seems to be the magic number. Don't know if it could look any better. No jerky playback and no pixalization. You wouldn't think that the difference between 1150 and 1125 would make that much difference, but it does. So the question is how do I do that? I am using tmpgenc to do the encoding and vcd easy for authoring and nero for burning. If all I have to do is change the bitrate, I guess I would do that in tempgenc by loading the wizard and then clicking unlock to be able to change the bitrate. I remember reading somewhere that if you change the bitrate you have to change the video and audio so the total is not more than 1374. Is that right? Anyway, I am hoping you can give me further instructions. I know you said that you use Phillips (I think). I don't have that program so maybe you are familiar with the programs that I have. Thanks.

[vcd4ever]

1125 seems to be the magic number. Don't know if it could look any better. No jerky playback and no pixalization. You wouldn't think that the difference between 1150 and 1125 would make that much difference, but it does. So the question is how do I do that? I am using tmpgenc to do the encoding and vcd easy for authoring and nero for burning.

Tmpgenc was used when encoding all VCD's that you have downloaded and tried in your player. I'm also using both vcdeasy and philips videocd2.0 toolkit for authoring VCD's and vcdeasy is much easier to use than philips videocd2.0 toolkit. For burning i'm using vcdeasy but nero is also a very good burning program and usually supports more burners than vcdeasy.

If all I have to do is change the bitrate, I guess I would do that in tempgenc by loading the wizard and then clicking unlock to be able to change the bitrate.

I'm using an older version of tmpgenc that doesn't have any wizard...but loading the wizard and clicking unlock should allow you to be able to change the bitrate.

I remember reading somewhere that if you change the bitrate you have to change the video and audio so the total is not more than 1374. Is that right?

The only thing that you have to change after unlocking the VCD template is to change the videobitrate from 1150 to 1125.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

Thank you! Will give it a go and let you know.

[beth1949]

I guess it was too good to be true. The jerky playback is back. I changed the bitrate to 1125 and left everything else alone except to use high quality instead of normal in motion search. Something else must be wrong. Could you let me know what settings you use in tmpgenc? Prehaps something is off there. Don't know what else it could be since in vcd easy, I just load the cue file and let it go through it's program and in nero, except for changing the write speed to 4x, everything is pretty simple Thanks.

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

Download the zipfile at http://pmk.dynip.com:2222 and author a VCD with vcdeasy by using these 2 mpeg's. If vcdeasy complains and informs you that autopadding is required just answer yes.

I know that your player doesn't follow the VCD2.0 spec and therefore the VCD that you authored should have worked. The problem could be that your player requires VCD2.0 compliant files but not with a videobitrate of 1150.

I find it very hard to believe that any player that's not following the VCD2.0 spec would do this...but it wouldn't suprise me if this problem also exists.

The only difference between the 2 mpeg's is that one is 1125 VCD2.0 compliant and the other is 1125 NOT VCD2.0 compliant. The 1125 VCD2.0 compliant mpeg is the same that was authored with philips vcd2.0 toolkit and this played perfectly on your player.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

Ok - the 1125 compliant played perfectly and the 1125 non compliant had the jerky playback. Only the compliant asked for the auto padding in vcd easy and like you said, I just clicked yes. Does this explain anything to you, because I am confused. If the compliant one works and I have been making what I think is a compliant vcd but with a bitrate of 1125, why won't mine work? That's why I was asking about the tmpgenc settings. Maybe I am doing something wrong there?

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

Thanks for downloading and playing my 2 mpeg's in your player because with your help i now understand exactly what's causing this jerky playback.

The problem is that your player only plays VCD's that are fully VCD2.0 compliant with a videobitrate of 1125. The jerky playback is caused by authoring a VCD with a mpeg that has been encoded by tmpgenc because tmpgenc encoded mpeg's are not fully VCD2.0 compliant and there is nothing that can be done in tmpgenc for making the mpeg fully VCD2.0 compliant

Tmpgenc encoded mpeg's can be used but this means that you must first remux the tmpgenc encoded mpeg before using it for VCD authoring.The only program that's needed for doing this is bbmpeg and it can be downloaded from the tools section. The only thing that you have to do is demuxing the mpeg with tmpgenc and muxing it with bbmpeg.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

Thank you. Could you be a little more specific? I don't understand the term remux and mux. Do I still start with tmpgenc and only change the bitrate, then do something with bbmpeg, then do what I have always done with vcd easy, then burn? If this is correct, then I only need to know how to use bbmpeg.

[vcd4ever]

beth1949,

let's say for example that you have a mpeg named example.mpg and this mpeg is encoded by tmpgenc by only changing the bitrate.

The first thing to do now is this, start tmpgenc and if the wizard is loaded just close it. Now goto "file/mpeg tools/simple de-multiplex" and demux the example.mpg



The videostream named example.m1v and the audiostream named example.mp2 is now going to be muxed with bbmpeg.

Now start bbmpeg and click on "start encoding/settings/input and output files". Click on "open vs" and load example.m1v, click on "open as 1" and load example.mp2 and click on "open ps" and save it to a file named example-remuxed.mpg



Now click on "program stream settings" and select vcd and pad vcd audio. The only thing left to do now is to click on "ok" and on "start".



The mpeg named example-remuxed.mpg can now be authored with vcdeasy and burned with nero.

vcd4ever.

[beth1949]

I don't know what I am doing wrong, but every time I click on "open vs" in bbmpeg, the whole program just goes away. I have tried numerous times and even rebooted my computer and it keeps doing the same thing. Has this ever happened to you? I can't continue trying to make the vcd until I can get bbmpeg to work. I thought I might uninstall and then try a reinstall, but apparently it is not installed as a program, just an unzipped file. Should I just delete the file and try again, or do you have another suggestion? Sorry to be such a pest.

[adam]

If you are using WinXP you have to install a patch in order to use BBMpeg.

http://www.divx-digest.com/software/avi2mpg2.html

Its link 5. (website won't allow direct links.)

[beth1949]

Got the bbmpeg to work with the patch, but you are not going to believe this - The resulting vcd is even worse than before. I did everything just like we talked about. Tmpgenc first only changing the bitrate to 1125. Then tmpgenc again to demux. Then bbmpeg to remux. Then vcd easy to author. Then nero to burn the cue file. What could have possibly gone wrong?

[vcd4ever]

Got the bbmpeg to work with the patch, but you are not going to believe this - The resulting vcd is even worse than before. I did everything just like we talked about. Tmpgenc first only changing the bitrate to 1125. Then tmpgenc again to demux. Then bbmpeg to remux. Then vcd easy to author. Then nero to burn the cue file. What could have possibly gone wrong?

I know that encoding a VCD with tmpgenc by loading a VCD template,unlocking it and changing the videobitrate to 1125 is OK. I also know that mpeg's that has been remuxed with bbmpeg is also OK, and tmpgenc for demuxing is also OK. Vcdeasy for authoring and nero for burning is also OK. This also means that your VCD should have played but because it didn't the problem could be the videobitrate. Your player doesn't play VCD's 1150 but VCD's 1125 and therefore it's possible that the difference is not enough and this will sometimes cause your VCD's not to play perfectly. The first thing for you to do now is to encode a mpeg with tmpgenc by changing the bitrate to 1100 and trying it in your player.

And adam, thanks for the help with the bbmpeg patch.

vcd4ever.