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  1. Member
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    All this chatter lately made me go and have another look at the AUP.

    I would challenge someone to post a COMPLETELY CLEAR legal reference from a high court or supreme court that has supported the FREE USE policy in this forum and has written it into LAW and LAW BOOKS by CONGRESS or other government body. While, I am in agreement with being able to record or timeshift your tv shows, but the rest is unfounded. In fact there is more evidence to the contrary out there. (Did you know you cant photocopy a book you own, or photograph your own art or even public art or legally take a picture inside a company building)

    Until then, this is an interpretation only and all of us are in violation. I like how everybody just gives this one a little wink wink, nudge nudge, but the dude who accidently advertises his text books is banned and has to grovel for his membership back.

  2. Member
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    My bad, wrong forum. News and Newbie/General Discussions kinda sound similar...

  3. Originally Posted by tygrus2000
    Until then, this is an interpretation only and all of us are in violation. I like how everybody just gives this one a little wink wink, nudge nudge, but the dude who accidently advertises his text books is banned and has to grovel for his membership back.
    Prove we are not in violation.


    And by the way, if you want to get picky, your location 'God's Country' is a religious reference, and the Forum Rules/AUP clearly state that there is to be NO RELIGION whatsoever.

    The sword is sharp on both edges, is it not Tiberius?

  4. Banned
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    Originally Posted by tygrus2000
    (Did you know you cant photocopy a book you own?
    You are incorrect. You could photocopy sections of books in the library. That is why they have xerox machines there.

    Afa copying a whole book, I am not sure why you would want to, but there is a clause known as first sale. Once you buy the book, you are free to do whatever the heck you wanted to with it.

    You could even rip the pages out and make paper airplanes if you wanted. Noone is going to kill you or make you walk the plank.

  5. Member
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    Indo, when on a forum that advocates the supposed FREE USE policy, the onus is on that site to prove its policy, not on me.

    I have taken business law and I can only tell you that every copyright law out there is quite stringent and though they haven't stayed with the recent advances in technology, the law is inlusive enough to cover backups and the like.

    If backing up dvds is so legit, than someone should be able to open up a shop in their town and do it as a business. I bet you wouldnt last a week until the cops shut that down.

  6. Member
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    The library exists only as a sharing of information for the greater good of society and so one person doesn't hoard material. The photocoping of a few pages of information is tolerate, standing there and copying an entire book is not.

    Next time, ake out a library book and take it to a print shop and tell them to make you a copy and see what they say.

  7. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tygrus2000
    If backing up dvds is so legit, than someone should be able to open up a shop in their town and do it as a business. I bet you wouldnt last a week until the cops shut that down.
    Actually, uselessness and failure would shut you down the quickest.

  8. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tygrus2000
    Next time, ake out a library book and take it to a print shop and tell them to make you a copy and see what they say.
    But you don't own the library book. This site adheres to the same rule for borrowed DVDs. Fair/acceptable use does not apply to that which is borrowed or rented.

  9. Here's my take on this issue.

    videohelp.com resides on a mirrored server farm here in the United States. If the circumvention of copyright related to making a backup copy of material you purchased was truly a legal issue, we'd not been logged in to this forum having this discussion.

    Is it because the actual decryption process is contained within the computer code of freeware programming? Thus, no profit is made from the actual circumvention of the copyright-protecting code?

    We can argue this from many directions, but the fact of the matter is, there has not been an enforcable decision made from either side of the legal pulpit. 321 Studios is a completely different affair, IMHO. And lest we not be the hypocritical society that we truly are, Norwegian and Canadian decisions in this matter must be taken into account.

    Who are we to say our law is absolute in this matter? Who are we to say our law is absolute in any matter? The ICJ certainly doesn't see it that way...

  10. Member
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    Oh but I thought backing up was so important and that everybody needs to do it?

    Everybody on here claims their dvds are instantly detroyed as soon as they buy them. Mine sit nicely in their protective cases on my mantle when they are not in use, I have yet to see one go bad in like 5 years.

  11. Member
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    Take a book you purchased to the print shop, you will get the same response. Take some photographs with the webshots logo on them down to Wallmart - they will send you away.

    You dont have unlimited control over some one else's creative content - people need on this site need to realize this.

    Now there is no saying we cant do what we want in the sancity of our own home until we are caught or claim ignorance. Maybe the RIAA has seen this site and are contemplating shutting it down or see that it has enough other content in it to make it semi-legit, but they can't keep tabs on every forum out there.

  12. Originally Posted by tygrus2000
    Oh but I thought backing up was so important and that everybody needs to do it?

    Everybody on here claims their dvds are instantly detroyed as soon as they buy them. Mine sit nicely in their protective cases on my mantle when they are not in use, I have yet to see one go bad in like 5 years.

    I do backup my more important DVDs. I buy a second copy of them. Not everybody can afford this practice.

    And I backed up all those LaserDiscs I purchased to Super VHS and/or ED Beta a long time ago. Who knew about laser rot then?

    I think one of the biggest arguments for backing up DVDs is the child factor. And the forgetful adult factor. I have no children, but I've accidentally destroyed a DVD by forgetting to put it away when I was done with it.

  13. Member
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    If backing up dvds is so legit, than someone should be able to open up a shop in their town and do it as a business. I bet you wouldnt last a week until the cops shut that down.


    Actually, uselessness and failure would shut you down the quickest.

    Guess again. There's a Russian DVD shop in my local suburb that operates in exactly that manner. Bootleg DVD-Rs everywhere. Over 2 thirds of they're stock, in fact. They even sell downloaded mpeg files as vcds. They've been in business for a year. WHY it hasn't been shut down I don't know.

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    Tygrus,

    You are the only one mentioning a print shop. Have you ever heard of computer flatbed scanners?

    You can do that in the comfort of your own home with the book you bought.

    Judges have said that customers have a right to back up dvd's. The only reason 321 got into trouble is that they sold the software. However, I doubt the freeware developers will really catch any flack. Congress is even taking up the issue to remove any doubts by amending the dmca to allow backups.

    Why don't you do more research before you make a fool out of yourself?

    We are talking about stuff we bought.

    The Riaa has nothing to do with movies, so they would not shut down this site.

    You have no clue of wtf you are talking about.

  15. The RIAA has bigger problems than this website. Namely, the millions of users who actually download copyrighted material from P2P services, not the 80,000+ people who talk about how to back them up.

  16. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ROBERT BLACK
    Guess again. There's a Russian DVD shop in my local suburb that operates in exactly that manner. Bootleg DVD-Rs everywhere. Over 2 thirds of they're stock, in fact. They even sell downloaded mpeg files as vcds. They've been in business for a year. WHY it hasn't been shut down I don't know.
    Not exactly. We (I hope) were talking about legitimate use, as in you could bring in YOUR movie and they would make a backup for YOU. Kind of in the vein of bringing a document to a copier and having them copy said document. Bootleggers and pirates are a different animal altogether.

    As to why they're still in business, probably "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

  17. Originally Posted by gitreel
    Afa copying a whole book, I am not sure why you would want to, but there is a clause known as first sale. Once you buy the book, you are free to do whatever the heck you wanted to with it.
    Sometimes this happens when one needs book that is not avaiable for sale. For example, I copied a dictionary on Russian prison camp slang that was in the university library, which I used for a term paper and subsequent article in a scholarly journal.....

  18. Member
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    I have no children, but I've accidentally destroyed a DVD by forgetting to put it away when I was done with it.
    I've destroyed CDs simply by playing them in machines that, according to the letter of the law, should not have been sold. Anyone who tells me that I cannot back up my own discs can therefore suck my knob as far as I am concerned.
    "It's getting to the point now when I'm with you, I no longer want to have something stuck in my eye..."

  19. Banned
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    The discrepancy in the accurate interpretation of this and similar problems is as old as the law itself. There are 2 aspects to consider :legal and practical. Legal: no copying allowed, practical: widespread practice to make copies of owned CD's onto an audio cassette for listening in the car or walkmans. Don't know of anyone being arrested for possessing such cassette. Legal: obey speed limit, practical: only few get cited while the rest enjoys "illegal" speeds. Legal: pay taxes duly, practical: most do not unless caught (especially businesses, larger the entity less likely to comply). Existence of the particular regulation does not mean its absolute 100% enforcement. In many cases this is difficult if not impossible and the law serves more as a guidance rather then the actual enforceable rule. On top of that you have exceptions to the rule, legal: killing is illegal and punishable, practical: exculpatory circumstances like self-defense or insanity (act is still illegal but carries no punishment). There's more to law then can be covered in a single "business law course".

    Back to copyrights: legal: do not copy protected work of art, practical: limited personal use is no big deal unless it carries signs of being much more then that. That applies to DVD's as well. Huge proliferation of DVDRW drives is a clear indication that DVD's are being copied but it is not a big deal (for now...). This ambivalence allows for easier control of the situation (imagine if it was legally and practically 100% clear... anybody stopped by a road patrol with a home made CD compilation or DVD disc copy would end up in jail automatically). Great law but not very practical as that would mean that 99% of motorists would end up in a slammer.

  20. Member adam's Avatar
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    tygrus2000 I have personally described this aspect of the AUP at least 30 times on this forum. Before getting so worked up you should do a forum search.

    The reason no one can cite you a single case on the matter is because one has not occurred yet, and that is the whole point. Copyright law is by definition overbroad legislation, just like tax law. It grants exclusive rights in one entity and then carves out very specific exceptions to that. These exceptions are usually case-driven.

    We are operating here under the assumption that DVD copying is a permissible Fair Use exception to copyright restrictions. Only the age old Fair Use exceptions have been codified into law, the rest are applied on an ad hoc basis and are 100% case driven. The idea is that the only reason this aspect has not definitively been labeled as permissible, is because no one has standing to challenge the current law. Its highly unlikely that a copyright holder would ever even know, much less be able to prove, that someone infringed on their copyright by making a backup copy, and its even more unlikely that they'd even care enough to file suit. If no one ever files suit, then the law never changes unless the legislature does something about it. (which may be happening right now as a matter of fact.)

    All of the suits regarding DVD copying and copyright law + the DMCA have sidestepped the Fair Use issue. The DVD-X-Copy cases dealt with a commercial program and thus Fair Use really doesn't apply. And the DeCSS cases never used Fair Use as an argument...his defense was that DeCSS has nothing to do with copying a DVD at all but rather was for playing DVDs on linux.

    See, basically we are dealing with an aspect of a law which consistently goes untested. The issue only ever gets raised when there is money at stake, and that throws the Fair Use argument out the window.

    I wouldn't exactly equate this to a dead law, but its the same idea. There are all sorts of laws out there that clearly no one would ever be punished for violating, yet they persist simply because no one has standing to challenge them. Did you know that technically the Encyclopedia Britannica is illegal in Texas because it contains a recipe for beer? Or that in Alabama its illegal to play dominoes on Sunday? I feel sorry for those people living in Florida because the missionary position is the only one allowed by law.

  21. Member adam's Avatar
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    Also, the rules of this board only mirror that of the law insofar as we don't want to get shut down. Our rule against advertising has nothing to do with any law, obviously. Its an administrative decision to prevent this site from becoming a giant ebay ad.

    As for our policy allowing backups, its just our policy. We don't have to defend it, unless a copyright holder comes by and challenges the board as being in violation. If a user is unhappy with this policy their remedy is to simply not visit this site.

    Also consider that this is a website which is accessible all over the world. There ARE laws in some non-US countries which specifically allow you to make backups. Look at Canada for example.

  22. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
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    Why is there always one who wants to upset the apple cart ?
    If in doubt, Google it.

  23. Banned
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    Originally Posted by jimmalenko
    Why is there always one who wants to upset the apple cart ?
    Because their life is a shallow, empty life and they have nothing better to do than to cause trouble.

    To quote Hank Williams Jr.

    "Why can't we all just get a long-neck?"

  24. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
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    The thing that baffles me is why would anyone here care, when it is Baldrick that will take the fall ?
    If in doubt, Google it.

  25. Member hech54's Avatar
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    In a country where every rich person gets away with murder (or so it seems...see O.J.)....what makes you think a rich cooperation would not pick apart ANY law if they want to get YOU bad enough. With the right lawyer and the right money someone who copies only the movies he has purchased and has all of the receipts for....CAN be found guilty if someone want's him(or her) to be found guilty.
    The judicial system at work for you....gotta love it.

  26. Member
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    Originally Posted by jimmalenko
    The thing that baffles me is why would anyone here care, when it is Baldrick that will take the fall ?
    Duh. Because ( most ) people don't want the forum shut down.
    There's to much fun in idiot bashing

  27. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FOO
    Originally Posted by jimmalenko
    The thing that baffles me is why would anyone here care, when it is Baldrick that will take the fall ?
    Duh. Because ( most ) people don't want the forum shut down.
    We'd all just migrate somewhere else anyway.

    No one bar Baldrick has to prove anything to anyone, and he only has to if a lawsuit is brought against him. So why the big deal ?
    If in doubt, Google it.

  28. Banned
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    ......

    This the news....

    Tygrus is a moron...

    More at 11

  29. I'll start of with a Big Thank you to Baldrick for the forum and the mods for helping to keep it going.

    This herenow site has been a help for me. Without this site I'd be unable from lack of knowledge to, drumrole please.

    a. Get good video captures, I've been working on that since I tried way back using a ISA card and Windows 3.1 to capture good quality sill images. Then for video, various ATI AIWs. Then USB and now finally a ADVC-100 = Best results. Edit, convert and cleanup.

    b. originally turn them into VCDs and then SVCDs.

    c. be able to get usable video from my stand alone DVD recorder into the PC to Make good menus.

    And of course author and burn DVDs.

    so now my workflow is Tape, VHS & S-VHS home movies, capture with Standalone if tape is in good shape - Gives decent quality @ 2 hour setting. If tape hasdeteriorated, then through ADVC-100 into computer, it seems to handle poor quality tapes better, Mask the bottom few lines then encode and author

    Tools used and learned of from this site.

    Scenalyzer for capture

    TmpGenc Plus or CCE Basic for encoding

    TMPGenc w/AC3 Plugin for authoring

    VirtualDub Mpeg for accurate editing

    DVD Decrypter - the unclosed DVD+RWs from my standalone won't go directly in the TMPGenc DVD author unless I rip with DVD Decrypter, Don't know why, And even then they show the same videoas being on the rip twice. And only the first video is usable, no biggie as each disk has one video on it since I learned that.

    DVD Shrink incase I blow the size on authoring (very infrequent now)

    Nero 5.5.xx to burn

    Sony DRU-500A from back when that was the first dual format burner available. I could not decide what format to get before when - or + were only available seperately. When one of our wholesalers called in and said he had ten in stock that november, I checked and said I'll take it. I had asked to be put on the waiting list since customers were asking about them. He had 10 and a 500+ waiting list. FWIW I called our customer and he said he'd given up waiting and ordered from Sony direct, before I took it.

    Note to s/w vendors. I tried several software packages with free trial versions before deciding on the above. The nero I had gotten with CD burner and had to buy so it worked with sony too.

    Longwinded I suppose but why to me this site is legal and very useful. Nowdays i see to many that can't read the AUP when they sign up both here and on several sat forums, the first thing they do once they can post is ask how to do things against the AUP. They deserve to get squelched !

    Cheers

  30. Member
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    Not exactly. We (I hope) were talking about legitimate use, as in you could bring in YOUR movie and they would make a backup for YOU. Kind of in the vein of bringing a document to a copier and having them copy said document. Bootleggers and pirates are a different animal altogether.

    Unfortunately...No. They're bootlegging commercial DVDs(Region 1-4) of licensed product,complete with printed covers, and selling them for a profit. I agree, that backing up DVDs you own is a little different. But let's face it ,it's just one very small step away to booting copies for friends. and another step to booting them for profit. Personal backups are on the peripheral of legality. Which is probably why this issue creating such a fuss with certain organizations. Although I believe it will remain so in countries like Canada.(for a while) More big money lobbing by the MPAA and Hollywood just may eventually make personal backups illegal. Regardless of sound and justified arguments for protecting our originals. Money does the little dance. Give it time.


    As to why they're still in business, probably "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

    Yeah, probably. 10 bucks says when the heat is on them they go to another burb and set up again.




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